All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by apple713

We do know, with absolute certainty, that if fetchlands get banned card diversity increases. How we know this is because something must replace these cards and there is no obvious second choice. As someone mentioned it could be some combination of "shock lands, pain lands, check lands (Glacial Fortress), fast lands (Copperline Gorge), man lands (Raging Ravine), filter lands, and Mana Confluence." We can test this by first asking people to build a manabase (with fetchlands in the format) for a deck like RUG delver that has a fairly constant manabase and measuring the variance between all of those lists. Second, we ask those same people to build a manabase for the same deck but with fetchlands removed from the format. I would be willing to bet anything that the variance in lists after you remove fetchlands is HUGE compared to before removing fetchlands.

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How long do you think it will be before the format re-homogenizes around the best choices? More to the point, aren't we just ending up with the same decks with the same structures with the same 4–10 cards switched out for the same 4–10 other cards? What would such a ban accomplish?

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Originally Posted by apple713

Now, this argument would not be the same if you banned brainstorm. There is a fairly clear next best option, preordain. Some decks might opt for portent but most would stick to preordain.

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I hope I don't sound rude when I say this, but we're back where we started.

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Originally Posted by apple713

In legacy, at least in my opinion, one of the most attractive features of the format is that there is a significantly larger pool of decks that are viable than ANY other format. If you want to play with cards that are more powerful than those in legacy you can go to vintage. If you want to play in a format with a smaller pool of decks you can play Standard or Modern. Legacy is the middle ground with fairly high card powerlevel and a very large amount of deck diversity. Thus, it would make sense that one of the goals of banning cards in legacy is increased format diversity. WOTC actually says this in their explanation of banning mental misstep, "The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep."

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It appears you're arguing a separate point here. I agree that a diversity of decks and strategies is key to making Legacy the dreamland I'd always hoped it would be. But that's a substantially different argument from the one you're making about card diversity.

It strikes me that your arguments contradict each other to a point: card diversity does not indicate deck diversity, and enforcing a standard of card diversity doesn't necessarily produce more diverse decks and strategies. (It's worth mentioning that Mental Misstep poses questions about "play-pattern diversity," as does Gitaxian Probe, but that's pretty close to being a non-starter.) It certainly can, but I think you're going out on a limb when you equate the two as you appear to have done in your post.

Time to derail the discussion! Now that all these Chalice decks have stomped half the format into oblivion, Miracles is still Miracles, and Delvers continue to run over anything that gets put in their way, can we admit that banning Probe solved nothing?

Sorry, Lemnear, I missed your response.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I apologize then and elaborate. It has been brought to the table that without fetchlands to access the 1-2 basics people run, all decks would fold to Bloodmoon, assuming that everyone in that hypothetical meta would run similar greedy 3c manabases like the ones we are used to see. . . . The argument in context to Bloodmoon you have in mind, was about 4c DRS+BlueShell being able to run Bloodmoons themselves as a testament of the power of their manabase. A different topic.

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Ah, I see. They make an interesting point, but I agree that that's probably an exaggeration. I agree that it's quite likely that decks would narrow their manabases in the context of a fetch ban, which I personally wouldn't like, but I can see why people might. You're correct that I was assuming you referred to the argument about Moon in Czech Pile, etc., so thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Cards like Ponder, Preordain, etc all remain even if Brainstorm would take a serious hit. It sure would affect deckbuilding, but from aspects of blue being great in regards to battling combo with zero mana counters, there is not changing much. With the exception of fragile deck like Belcher or Oops, combo would suffer from the lack of card selection on a pretty equal base has various blue control/midrange/tempo decks.

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This touches on a point that's been at the back of my mind for a while. There are two possible outcomes to banning Brainstorm (that we know about):
—My big fear: banning Brainstorm neuters blue control decks, ostensibly paving the way for faster combo decks to expand with a relative lack of impediment.
—My other big fear: former "Brainstorm decks" continue trucking along without Brainstorm, ostensibly bringing into question the rationale for banning Brainstorm in the first place.

As a fast-combo enthusiast and a fan of Brainstorm (at the same time!) I don't see how either of those outcomes would accomplish anything. I'm not assuming you're taking either side in this discussion, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Sorry, Lemnear, I missed your response.



Ah, I see. They make an interesting point, but I agree that that's probably an exaggeration. I agree that it's quite likely that decks would narrow their manabases in the context of a fetch ban, which I personally wouldn't like, but I can see why people might. You're correct that I was assuming you referred to the argument about Moon in Czech Pile, etc., so thanks for clearing that up.



This touches on a point that's been at the back of my mind for a while. There are two possible outcomes to banning Brainstorm (that we know about):
—My big fear: banning Brainstorm neuters blue control decks, ostensibly paving the way for faster combo decks to expand with a relative lack of impediment.
—My other big fear: former "Brainstorm decks" continue trucking along without Brainstorm, ostensibly bringing into question the rationale for banning Brainstorm in the first place.

As a fast-combo enthusiast and a fan of Brainstorm (at the same time!) I don't see how either of those outcomes would accomplish anything. I'm not assuming you're taking either side in this discussion, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

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It depends on how neutered you think blue decks would become if such a ban occurred. Historically (maybe a little less than a decade ago) when cantrip shell decks comprised a significantly smaller portion of the meta (~50% compared to the ~75% now or before drs ban, rough estimate), fast combo decks weren't destroying the format as far as I remember. Dredge was maybe played more back then, and ANT was really good until mystical was banned, but considering Maverick was one of the best decks right around that time, fast combo couldn't have been that oppressive. I don't think anyone wants to make blue useless, they just want the gap between blue (or maybe just the cantrip shell in particular) and every other deck/ engine to be not as pronounced. Sure there are probably better solutions, like WOTC printing better card consistency engines in non blue colors, but they don't seem interested in that. The cantrip shell always had consistency, but it didnt always have access to the amount of powerful spells it has now. A combination of printing powerful blue creatures/ spells, and all other colors getting powerful and efficient spells that it can use has really propelled the shell far ahead of any other.

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Originally Posted by phonics

(B)ut it didnt always have access to the amount of powerful spells it has now. A combination of printing powerful blue creatures/ spells, and all other colors getting powerful and efficient spells that it can use has really propelled the shell far ahead of any other.

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Sounds like they should ban Delver, TNN and Griselbrand etc.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Sorry, Lemnear, I missed your response.

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No sweat. Life's more important than a web stranger like me :)

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

As a fast-combo enthusiast and a fan of Brainstorm (at the same time!) I don't see how either of those outcomes would accomplish anything. I'm not assuming you're taking either side in this discussion, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

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As a former vintage veteran, i have seen the deckbuilding structure with and without the stability of 4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder, especially in context of combo and how the "vintage apocalypse" damaged the format. However, I try to not let that get in the way. I am more concered with how raising prices and a format with one oppressive deck/strategy affected the health of Vintage in the following years and I fear we'll see the same for Legacy at some point. You sure know, I share your enthusiasm towards both things as well, but for the longterm health of the format, I try to remain open for alternative takes.

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Originally Posted by talpa

I have a vague suspicion that in the context you were referring to fetchlands.

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Its funny that you bring up context and references now, but dismiss both concepts whenever I make a post? How handy.

Also a poor attempt to justify a bunch of false claims you made, like me mentioning "Fetchland" in that post (do we need to discuss the concept of quotation marks?) or "using demonic tutor as comparison" to fetchlands.

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Originally Posted by talpa

I don't even know what the "original points" should be. MrSafety is pointing fundamentally to two arguments (strong manabase -I refuse the usage of "perfect" as explained- and shuffle effect -I refuse the qualifier "free" for the reasons explained, those qualifiers are prejudicial). Do you agree those are the only one we should discuss?

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I made my personal points several times in the past and other dear users chimed in with their own ideas, criterias and feedback. Who i am to decide which points are relevant for this large and complex topic? I am thankful for every new angle on the matter like the monetary aspects on both sides. My original point didnt even touch the point of what is "too good".

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Originally Posted by talpa

The first part almost sounds like you are apologizing for explaining poorly. As for the second one, I certainly agree that fetches allow you to get access to off-color; I doubt they can do this realiably, I don't believe it comes with little effort (in terms of overall deck construction, especially with shaman gone) and I don't think they are the only legacy-available solution to access to off-colors. Anyway, even if all of that was right, I still wouldn't see any problem described, simply a state-of-art.

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It wasn't my post I was refering to in regards to "generalistic", but no, that's not the post i meant

Is there a reason Earthcraft is still banned? Would love to understand someone's perspective if they feel it should stay banned.

Same with Mind Twist.

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Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22

Is there a reason Earthcraft is still banned? Would love to understand someone's perspective if they feel it should stay banned.

Same with Mind Twist.

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sciurophobia

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Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22

Is there a reason Earthcraft is still banned? Would love to understand someone's perspective if they feel it should stay banned.

Same with Mind Twist.

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Something to the effect of this

Bant Infi-Squirrels. Can't wait!

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Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22

Is there a reason Earthcraft is still banned? Would love to understand someone's perspective if they feel it should stay banned.

Same with Mind Twist.

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There's really only two reasons for Earthcraft to be banned:
1) The combo with Squirrel's Next (this was the original reason it was banned).
2) The possibility of putting Elves over the top.

The first is nothing to worry about. It's a 2-card combo with no redundancy that doesn't do anything until the next turn (unless you have Concordant Crossroads, I guess, which turns it into a 3-card combo). It's just worse than the combos already in the format, certainly worse than Sneak and Show which only has to resolve one of its combo cards and has redundancy.

The second is a little more worrisome, but I'm a bit dubious that it really fits that well into Elves, though perhaps someone better versed with the deck can weigh in on that.

I feel like I've seen multiple people say that the card is barely playable if at all in elves.

Earthcraft in Elves seems weak. Heritage Druid (and Birchlore Rangers) do a much better job of turning your elves into hasty mana dorks while being cheaper, GSZ targets, and not diluting the deck.

The deck that probably benefits the most is Enchantress, which is still going to be the world's slowest combo deck, Earthcraft or not. A quarter turn faster on average...woo fucking hoo, now it's almost as fast as Solidarity!

The only effect an unban would have is fleecing a bunch of chumps out of their money as they panic buy a la Land Tax or Black vise.

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Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape

The only effect an unban would have is fleecing a bunch of chumps out of their money as they panic buy a la Land Tax or Black vise.

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Except Earthcraft is a RL card, so it's probably different than you are imagining.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

There's really only two reasons for Earthcraft to be banned:
1) The combo with Squirrel's Next (this was the original reason it was banned).
2) The possibility of putting Elves over the top.

The first is nothing to worry about. It's a 2-card combo with no redundancy that doesn't do anything until the next turn (unless you have Concordant Crossroads, I guess, which turns it into a 3-card combo). It's just worse than the combos already in the format, certainly worse than Sneak and Show which only has to resolve one of its combo cards and has redundancy.

The second is a little more worrisome, but I'm a bit dubious that it really fits that well into Elves, though perhaps someone better versed with the deck can weigh in on that.

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Crossroads or another haste effect doesn't win on the spot. The squirrels need to tap to generate another squirrel.

I know it's original banning was due to the two card combo (see reason worldgorger was banned) but it feels very suboptimal now.

The only interaction I see being viable is as a 2-3 of in enchantress to allow argothian to untap a basic with auras on it or to generate a ton of Mana with opalescence.

Why do people want to reinstate cards that aren't likely to see much use anyway?

I mean, Mind Twist seems cool in Dredge, but it still gets countered, and that deck doesn't really want Dark Rituals.

I guess it pitches to Unmask.

Frantic Search being banned is another more laughable one.

Like compare the "power" of Frantic Search to any of these cards:

Brainstorm
Ponder
Faithless Looting

Which seems bannable on power level? the 3 mana one that's card disadvantage and needs a build around to do anything special? lololol

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Why do people want to reinstate cards that aren't likely to see much use anyway?

I mean, Mind Twist seems cool in Dredge, but it still gets countered, and that deck doesn't really want Dark Rituals.

I guess it pitches to Unmask.

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If the card has no purpose being on the list, why is it on the list? Just because it won't make waves doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered for removal. Should we ban Vizerdrix for the same reason?

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Originally Posted by ReAnimator

Frantic Search being banned is another more laughable one.

Like compare the "power" of Frantic Search to any of these cards:

Brainstorm
Ponder
Faithless Looting

Which seems bannable on power level? the 3 mana one that's card disadvantage and needs a build around to do anything special? lololol

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Requiring to build around has never stopped a card from being banned. With this reasoning you would unban oath of druids, yaugmoth's will, mind's desire, windfall...

I played the card about ten years ago in peasant high tide and it was insane. Filtering + producing mana is exactly what you want. No one can say if the metagame could handle it, but for sure it would be really, really strong. In the high tide deck it would probably be better than brainstorm. Definitely superior to ponder.

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Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22

If the card has no purpose being on the list, why is it on the list? Just because it won't make waves doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered for removal. Should we ban Vizerdrix for the same reason?

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That doesn't really have anything to do with what I was saying.

There's no reason to take something off the list if it doesn't matter whether it's there in the first place. I didn't advocate banning anything.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I played the card about ten years ago in peasant high tide and it was insane. Filtering + producing mana is exactly what you want. No one can say if the metagame could handle it.

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I can.

• Frantic Search is still bad pre-combo. Spira Tide does not really want to cast a -1 card when looking for gas. Therefore it would be a combo-card. It's not like Spiral Tide would have access to an extra xerox.
• Frantic Search would be very good when comboing: it's basically a better candelabra/turnabout. Spiral Tide would be more consistant in comboing off T3, with less fizzle chances, and that would put the deck a better spot in the meta.
• However, we already have at least one t3 consistant storm deck (ANT). It's been there for a decade and the metagame has managed to handle that just fine.
• Also, we already have at least one t1-t2 storm deck (TES). The metagame handles that too.
• Lastly, we already have a consistant T3 blue-centered combo deck (omnitell) that works in a more efficient way and requires less calculations and unnecessary interactions than spiral tide does, and we're not seeing 3-4 omnishow per top8.

The only reason why Frantic Search is staying banned is because people want to keep playing their candelabras :tongue: