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@Spartan117: if it's not a problem for you, can you write down which is your standard sideboard plan vs the most common archetypes, writing down the ins and the outs? I think this will help the discussion to talk about some interesting decisions and their decisions.
I repeat, just if this is not a problem for you!
@berry
I dont really think that the matchup is about speed, well some games might be, if some player has like 2 Delver, but ussualy its all about card advantage (so FoW is not that good, but u want some hard counters still), so I dont think the Daze is slow, its was always great in mirror for me, because your opponent plays only 18 lands. I understand that Daze is bad on draw in decks like Merfolks or Bant, but this deck cooperate on 2 lands (if u dont play Snappy) so slowing myself down a little bit isnt a big deal.
Like I wrote my sb plan include -1 Snare, because in my meta nobody plays Snapcasters and 4 is just too much if you have only 4 targets.
And with the Surgical thing, I almost never start in mirror with Dual, unless I have Delver or Stifle. Plus the odds for my opp having Wasteland + Surgical and me having dual in play on 1st turn are really low. Randomly Extracting Goyf is ok, but unless you hit the Goyf in the hand, its card disadvantage and the Goose + Delver can still kill you.
My sb is currently like this - 3 Pyroblast, 2 Lavamancer, 2 Divert, 3 Extraction (maybe I should replace these with Crypts not sure) 3 Submerges, 1 Loam, 1 Krosan Grip
@straca3: You bring in Pierce & REB, you keep Snare in, that's hard counters (basically, since it's not that usual to be able to pay for Pierce in the mirror). But since you're playing a Pierce-less SB I guess I can see your point. :)
@brainwasher: I won a game 1 against Bant this week that looked like this:
T1 Delver, he drops a land - I flip and are landless and passes - he plays a goyf, snare - I'm still landless, pass - stifle his waste on my volcanic, I think he BS'd into a plow or if he played another goyf, I dazed - still no land, pass (hit for 9 by now) - he wastes it and tries a plow, I FoW it - by now I have literally nothing but a flipped delver - he plays a goyf and pass - hit, 15 done - plow on delver, FoW'ed again, he scooped around here.
TLDR: Play Delver T1, flip T2, become wasted and manascrewed, win with flipped Delver and literally nothing else on board.
What are you trying to say? You had enough mana for your threat, Daze, Snare and 2(!!) FoW for all his plays; Can't see any mana-screw or special acomplishment here, sorry. It worked out the way it's intended to.
@Lemnear: I had 1 Volcanic. And I'm fairly sure I didn't pay mana for those FoWs.
I'm not trying to talk about any mana-screw (although sitting on 0 lands is a screw of sorts) or "special accomplishment" (?). I'm trying to point out the strength of the Delver and the importance of the 1-drop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
I guess people in this thread already know how absurd Delver is.
I guess people in this thread need the actual quote to not go bananas when they see something they can pounce on - my other post even started with "@brainwasher" since this was a reply to his comment (AS QUOTED ABOVE) about Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
So we've all come to the conclusion that a blue, flying Wild Nacatl is good? Awesome observations, guys. Now that the meeting of the mutual admiration club has ended, let's move on.
I'm just wondering, what cards are the worst for this deck to see? I've been playing this deck for a little while secretly, but I also want to know, what really hurts us, and how can I play around it?
-Matt
When I played this deck couple years back, vial and bant decks were annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Again, my point was towards the one man who "didn't get it".
Knights are annoying, but I think Maverick is a harder battle than Bant. Hardly see any vial decks so cannot comment on that... But considering top tier decks I'm not sure either - how is our fish-matchup?
What really bothers Tempo-thresh is the lack of pressure in your starting hand.
If you can play the mana-denial/clear board, thats all for nothing if you are unable to dig for a beater, surprise surprise.
Besides that, draws from Combo-decks which include basics and more landdrops in general are pretty tough to beat against good players, even if Tempo has a decent MU against Combo in general.
Vial decks are Goblins and merfolk and against Merfolk the Vial is not that important because of a bazillion spotremoval, I see no real problem here, especially if you play a clasm in the board.
What breaks the deck the neck is wishi-washi playstyle. 100% focus or better do not play at all is pure truth outside drawing the nuts.
Most matchups are pretty even and wrong sideboarding and playstyle WILL cost you a ton of games at the higher tables. Each muppet can sling Stifles, but thats not winning games on its own... .
Thresh is not an easy task, even if some hands really break it down to Play Turn1 Delver, flip it and win (lack of removal from the opponent or truckload of counters for those).
The huge upside of that is, that after some time you can literally smell opposing misplays and kick them in the nuts so hard that they wont be able to get up again.
I have never played a color-combination outside of RUG (not just including Thresh, also NL Thresh and stuff) that punished players so damn hard for punting, let it be as small as it can be, on both sides of the table.
Hi guys I' ve seen an UBR tempo deck that looks really interesting, it made top 8 in a 57 people tournament in Italy
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=52088
What do you think?
I' ve been testing a version of it:
Main 60
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Tombstalker
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Stifle
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
4x Underground sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
8x B/U/R Fetch
4x Wasteland
Side 15
2x Dispel
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Extripate
3x Ghastly Demise
3x Persih
2x Thoughtseize
Going quite well so far.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
@egosum:
the guy you're referring about is a friend of mine :smile:
We actually tested the deck quite a bit and it is very solid, but I totally agree with you about playing snapcaster, it's the real deal in this deck. Talking about discard spells I'm not that keen on playing hymn to tourach, kozilez inquisition is way better when your opponent won't ever reach 4 mana.
Anyway I won another tournament with the previous 75s, this time only 44 people.
2-0 reanimator
2-1 big zoo
2-1 hive mind
ID team portugal
1-2 elves (2x green trap always hitting emrakul)
2-1 elves (with vengevines)
2-0 belcher (with reb md)
2-1 canadian (picelli89)
Split in the final against ANT ubr.
Very threat-light list, whats the reasoning behind no Bobs in it?
Tombstalker? :wink:
Also, punishing fire isn't exatly your best friend... you want some of your treats not to die from burn spells.
Inaki's list is too-discard heavy, in my opinion. You're playing a exported version of Team America that has problems to a resolved Knight of Reliquary. Sure, you have flyers to race it, but lately it also fetches Maze which foils Delver beats and stall the board- and we all know what happens to Tempo decks if things get slowed down.
Our friends' (me and spartan's) version at least had some form of GFTT and Dismember. The removal suite should see some tweaks to accomodate 1-2 black removals, probably trimming down the discard to 4 (you're also giving more value to the USea you're likely to fetch in the first turns to fire Hymn, getting the right colour immediately). I know Seize and Inquisition can be seen as a pre-emptive form of removal against those problematic creatures, but topdeck and Zenith happen.
I'd go -3 discard, +1 Ponder, +2 black removals (perhaps lowering Bolt to 3 if something else is needed).
Haha, well, yes, he is big and bad and works not so well with Bob.
My point is, is it worth it running 3 Tombas over 4 Bobs? I've been brewing Grixis too, but more Next Level so I'm not sure it belongs in this thread - maybe Bobs home is there, and Tomb here.
Is Punishing Fire that rampant, where you live? Neither of us RUG-players in my town, nor any of the GW players, play it.
EDIT, because of Piceli89s post:
Is black for a few pointy removals really the way to beat Knights? Discard seems like a more reasonable reason to go into black - Knights can be taken care of from out of the board.
Hi, I'm the guy who played that UBR tempo, in italy.
I chose to play stalker because it's the best win condition you can wish for against canadian UGR. By the way, confidant always gets snared (bolt and fire/ice are not that funny too).
Stalker is very difficult to handle for both canadian and gw maverick (if you can counter their StP), and Ugr decks in general.
Maverick is quite an easy MU. I played against it about 5 times in tournaments and I won every single game. Delver is the key to win these matches. If you opponent plays StP on it, than you simply play stalker and that's all. You can deal with Knights by using terminate, gftt, edict, daze etc.
I don't really like discard spells, they're not that good in the mid/late game and they don't fit very well the stifle/waste plan, where you need to stay as open on mana as you can.
Well I played the list (side -2x Seize + 2x Pierce) in a locel store tournament going 2-1-1 out of 4 rounds, and finished 6th. Though I have to say that I 'm very happy with the choices, since the only lose was to that things that happen once in a while, I lost to a mono red kind of stompy deck with 4x Sneak Attack, 4x Through the Breacch and more than 2 (I don't know the exact number) of a R/G enchantment that is a pseudo sneak attack, but it works with the top of your deck (if you reveal a creature it enters play with haste, kind of crappy I think), he was also packong full set of Trini, Chalice and Blood moons, I lost first game, having a TObmstalker in table he was at 3 life, I played a Thoughtseize and get rid of bussiness letting him with only 2x Seething song, and mountain + ancient tomb on table. Next turn He top decked an iferno Titan and swing me for the win, 2nd game I tempo him out, and the third he was at 2 life with trini, blood moon and 4 mountains in table, and he top decked for his final trurn the Sneak attack, and the last 2 cards in hand were Simian Siprit Guide`Emrakul, I had no Pierce/ FoW so I scooped. Then I draw a 1-1 game with Bant. and won the last 2 against Blue Zoo (kind of canadian Thresh) and Team America.
As I said I ' m happy with the list but I'll make the following changes:
Main:
-1x Fire/Ice
-1x Inquisition of Kozilek
+2x Ghastly Demise
Side::
-1x Seize
-1x Ghastly Demise
+2x Pierce
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
P.D. I'm only doubting about the 3x DAze, I may try 3x Snare, but I think daze goes so well along with the denial plan, plus is incredible hard for supporting a 2nd Turn Hymn.
P.S.2. By the way discard must stay, not only for being a nice as disruption and provides card advantage, but also is incredible against a resolved Stoneforge.
P.S.3. A friend suggested me to play a Virtue's Ruin over one of the Perishes, in the side, to battle Mother of Runes (but also kills Reliwuary, Mystic,...). I think I'll a try to the 2+1 Split.
By the way have you ever thought about the card Rise // Fall. I know Rise may seem a bit clumsy for being sorcery speed and could maybe be better with more creatures inthe deck (specially more snapcasters), but it can buy some tempo and the Fall part it ' s a least interesting.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-