[Archetype] CounterTop

I feel that playing white and red make the mana base unstable and that with the creation of mental misstep and dismember we can now lower the 1cmc count and raise the 3 cmc count.

3 Top

4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Counterbalance

4 brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Dismember
3 mental misstep

1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB
2 tormod's crypt
2 umezawa's Jitte
2 Chill
1 Diabolic edict
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mental Misstep
1 Jace, The mind Sculptor
2 Perish
2 Thoughtseize

Why is that list better than playing Team America or BUG Landstill?

Team america has an unstable mana base because it has to make both double black and double blue fairly often. It has a better zoo MU than Team america does because of the Counter top combo and it's creature base allows for a better clock than bug landstill.

So with 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Dismember, 4 Force of Will, 3 Mental Misstep and X fetches -- you expect to have a better Zoo matchup than Team America or Landstill?

If anything, you should probably spread out your removal so it doesn't hurt you as much.

Team America's mana base could be considered greedy, but I'd say it's far from unstable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

-This is going to be our new shell. We NEED mms to fight opposing mms and vials.

---

Are you sure 4x Mental Missteps is really necessary? A lot of control decks are playing 3 Mental Missteps because they aren't really that great in the late game. I feel that if we are working on a core, the requirement should probably be 3 Mental Missteps leaving the 4th to be meta dependant. I think the greatest importance Mental Misstep really provides is to protect our Sensei's Divining Tops from being countered.

I would also like to suggest this in order to raise the 2 drops, we can also include a Sylvan Library as a 1-of to act as a "5th Sensei's Divining Top" as well as a stronger game against enemy control decks pre-CounterTop lock.

Why not a CounterTop Bant, with some Aggro focus?

Something like this:

// Lands
2 [R] Savannah
1 [UG] Plains
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The major issue of CounterTop is dealing with early threats, while putting the lock togheter. RWM, Goyf and Clique are pretty good beaters, and better when Exalted by Hierarch and Pridemage.

It shows RWM and Pridemages in numbers because CounterTop can't afford GSZ + 1-ofs.

The average numbers:

0cc spells - 20
1cc spells - 18
2cc spells - 11
3cc spells - 5
4cc spells - 2
5cc spells - 4
Blue Count - 21

Is this still viable, or a little outdated?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vandalize

Why not a CounterTop Bant, with some Aggro focus?

Something like this:

// Lands
2 [R] Savannah
1 [UG] Plains
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UG] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

The major issue of CounterTop is dealing with early threats, while putting the lock togheter. RWM, Goyf and Clique are pretty good beaters, and better when Exalted by Hierarch and Pridemage.

It shows RWM and Pridemages in numbers because CounterTop can't afford GSZ + 1-ofs.

The average numbers:

0cc spells - 20
1cc spells - 18
2cc spells - 11
3cc spells - 5
4cc spells - 2
5cc spells - 4
Blue Count - 21

Is this still viable, or a little outdated?

---

Bant aggro is better because they can be way more aggressive while playing with GSZ which sometimes invalidates your CB. Pridemage and Goyf clash in mana cost and Rhox War Monk is outclassed as an aggressive beater now-a-days.

In anycase, Knight of the Reliquary just dominates your board position. Running Knight just seems pointless, however, since other decks that run Knight of The Reliquary like Aggro Loam and The Rock simply will have bigger Knights. You can't rely on pure bant since Bant Aggro decks, The Rock decks just outclass Bant CounterTop in the aggro department.

Your deck is really well thought out, but the card choices are somewhat dated. Also, cards like Thrun ruin your game if your goyf cannot stay on the table or is big enough to stop the legend.

I made some tweaks to the UBG version above.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Counterbalance
4 Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze
2 Dismember
1 Go For the Throat
1 Putrefy

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Smother
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Perish

New mana curve:
1 12
2 15
3 6
4 2
5 4


There's no reason to play less than 4 Top right now, since it's going to be MM bait every game. Same with playing MM. You need early protection before CBTop is online.

4 Dismember is a little too aggressive for a deck that needs time to stabilize. Go For the Throat, Putrefy and Liliana 2.0 are more options. Liliana seems especially strong with a Confidant and/or Jace.

The deck probably beats up on Zoo and other aggro better than UBG Landstill, but the problem is CBTop just isn't great versus some of the current DTB. Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order both ignore it, and Pact copies trigger right through it.

That said, if either Storm Combo or Solidarity becomes popular because of Past in Flames, CBTop could be a good deck to pick up again.

are we back in business? Mental Misstep got banned..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jin

are we back in business? Mental Misstep got banned..

---

Yes we are. We also have new toys to play with: Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull.

Lets get the ball rolling shall we? I predict that Storm decks are going to make a reappearance. Goblins also will be coming back. We need something that can fight both. I got a shell here for a BladeTop deck:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This is just a shell to get it going. We could do a few things with this deck like splash red for:


Grim Lavamancer
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast


Also, what sort of sideboard should we have now?

Are you sure we can't build a new list of supreme blue?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theonlyone

Are you sure we can't build a new list of supreme blue?

---

- We could go that route as well. Do you have any deck lists or ideas on how to go that way?

Well, I feel like stoneforge isn't as good as before. It will get online on turn 4, the time to assemble Top + counterbalance, and I feel, it will be really too late.
In march, I played that list of supreme blue without having testing it in a tournament :
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [UNH] Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
2 [SOM] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CMD] Firespout
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CMD] Firespout
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle

The strength of that list is that we can fight beat batterskull with needle and the match-up against merfolk is even. Tarmogoyf will be a wall.

I have never liked Trinket Mage in CounterTop. He's not a threat and as a tutor he's not that powerful. I'd rather have the fairy since it can grab stuff out of our opponents hand (or get rid of a land in our hand to maybe draw something) and is a clock that flies over stupid crap.

I suggest this list as the number of Goblins and Merfolk players is going to go up:


2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Firespout
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce


It's a pretty typical list but the sideboard is heavy on the anti-blue, anti-aggro stuff. It's mostly there to help with out bad matchups, which are mostly Merfolk and Show n tell Decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

(or get rid of a land in our hand to maybe draw something)

---

Just to let you know - Clique reads "nonland card" ;)

Well, I don't think that the U/W stoneblade version is that bad with countertop. It can race merfolk with batterskull. We musn't forget too that the tarmogoyf isn't anymore more than 3/4 most of the time.
I'd try the core with a red splash for firespout instead of shackles next weekend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

Just to let you know - Clique reads "nonland card" ;)

---

- FML, that's what I get for not carefully reading the card. Well, you know what I mean: get rid of a non-land card that's currently dead, like excess tops or CBs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theonlyone

Well, I don't think that the U/W stoneblade version is that bad with countertop. It can race merfolk with batterskull. We musn't forget too that the tarmogoyf isn't anymore more than 3/4 most of the time.
I'd try the core with a red splash for firespout instead of shackles next weekend.

---

Grim Lavamancer would be a better choice instead of shackles IMO. HE can fry all sorts of goblins and merfolk, dyrad arbors, Noble Hiearchs, Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, Pridemages, and many other little creatures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- FML, that's what I get for not carefully reading the card. Well, you know what I mean: get rid of a non-land card that's currently dead, like excess tops or CBs.

---

Excess CB's are never useless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Grim Lavamancer would be a better choice instead of shackles IMO. HE can fry all sorts of goblins and merfolk, dyrad arbors, Noble Hiearchs, Dark Confidants, Vendilion Cliques, Pridemages, and many other little creatures.

---

Agreed, not because it fries more dudes, but because Merfolk can fight Shackles (Merrow Reejery). He's already givenup on Shackles though... Lavamancer is probalby better than Firespout too though in a Batterskull build since Batterskull kills Cats (so Firespout is redundant), but Firespouts die to fish (because firespout gets hit by more of Merfolk's countermagic unlike Lavamancer).

Check out my CounterBlade thread!

I know, I come off as an attention whore, but I'd like to keep discussion that wants to fuse the SFM + BS and CBT deck in one thread. This allows non-SFM decks to focus discussion here.