[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

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Originally Posted by btm10

I think Infect is a pretty positive matchup. Discard (especially Hymn) is great. Baleful Strix is great. Just don't get greedy, kill their stuff on your turn, and save your Wastelands for Inkmoth and you'll be fine more often than not.

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This is great advice. Game one the matchup can definitely be tricky if you don't draw enough removal. But after boarding, you should have disfigures and deluges and pithing needle and more discard. I think the worst card is definitely Jace, followed up by probably Tarmogoyf. He's just a dumb beater and you're not gonna be able to race them, so just OD on removal and discard and keep their board clear (even Noble Hierarch). Beats from Shardless and DRS should be enough.

Apologies if someone asked this recently: what's the plan for 4c Delver? I struggle with this match-up, and the whole "just counter everything the first three turns" approach makes me want to reach across the table and render violence. If anyone has general strategies and SB tips, I'd appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by halahel

Apologies if someone asked this recently: what's the plan for 4c Delver? I struggle with this match-up, and the whole "just counter everything the first three turns" approach makes me want to reach across the table and render violence. If anyone has general strategies and SB tips, I'd appreciate it.

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Don't walk into their soft counters, but don't let them scare you into not playing spells. If they aren't applying pressure, you don't have to actually do anything, just make your land drops and trade cards with them. Delver and Deathrite are their main threats since you can't just stall out the board and make them bad. That means prioritizing killing Delvers with Decay and let your Deathrites check theirs, especially in game 1. Obviously don't let a lone Deathrite live since turning yours on is relevant, but if you're forced to choose, the Delver is the bigger issue. Liliana is good both preboard and post since she contributes to the grinding plan. Make sure you keep sorceries in the graveyard and try to limit their ability to eat dead Agents and Strixes since Goyf sizing matters, especially if they're on Anglers. Discard is fine g1 to help push your stuff through, but I don't like anything that costs mana and doesn't play to the board games 2 and 3, so I cut Hymns and Thoughtseizes for removal. Jace is probably too slow. Keep Forces in no matter what so you don't get tempoed out. Cards like Painful Truths and Baleful Strix from their side can be obnoxious, but if they have it you should be happy because now they're trying to play our game, and we're way better at doing that.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Don't walk into their soft counters, but don't let them scare you into not playing spells.

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Awesome! Great information. Thanks for the tips.

So I just lost to an Esper Control deck on cockatrice. I was very unsure how to board.

Here is what I saw Game 1:

Stoneforge+Jitte+B.Skull, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster, Diabolic Edict, Baleful Strix

Game 2: I lost to a Vindicate+JTMS+Sorin, Lord of innistrad

Game 3: Mull to 5 and lost to JMTS


It is kind of difficult to focus on creatures and PW... I took out forces and Discard but maybe that was wrang in retrospective

Vs blade decks I really like leaving in Force of Will. Even though the games are grindy, FOW only truly sets you back if your Ancestral Visions never resolve.

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Vs blade decks I really like leaving in Force of Will. Even though the games are grindy, FOW only truly sets you back if your Ancestral Visions never resolve.

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Recent update on my miracles matchup (convo we had in another thread....that i cant find). Sideboarding, -2 hymn -2 baleful, -2 thoughtseize....+1 pithing needle, +2 golgari charm, +1 vclique, +2 pernicious deed.....felt great!

I've been lurking around for quite a while and finally gathered my courage to ask for some advice.
I'm going to Prague with my Shardless, that I've been playing for about 2-3 years now, but I'm awful at sideboarding :frown:
I usually just get a friend to go through the list with me and make me a list of what to take out and what to board, but this time i was advised to search for wisdom here :)
Here's the list with sideboard:

4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Baleful Strix
2x True-Name Nemesis

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Brainstorm
4x AbruptDecay
3x Force of Will
3x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse

2x Polluted delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Wasteland
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
1x Baleful Strix
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Submerge
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Extirpate
1x Dismember

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I'm also struggling with sideboarding. Trying to firm up plans for GP Columbus. This is where I'm at so far:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
1 Notion Thief

Other possibilities are Pithing Needle and Null Rod, both good against equipment-based strategies, Miracles, Sneak + Show, and other problematic permanents.

Notes:

Life from the Loam is an all-star. It gets me way ahead against the fair decks, letting me grind/value out in the mirror, and other fair decks like Esperblade and Jund. Also good versus Eldrazi.

Garruk and Sylvan Library are great against Miracles and other "fair" decks.

Discard for combo. Effective against Storm, Sneak/Show, kind of Reanimator and High Tide.

Various removal and -1 effects for Young Pyromancer, tribal decks, Death&Taxes, and Infect.

Notion Thief vs. Miracles and Shardless mirror

Eldrazi
-4 FoW, -1 Clique
+1 LftL, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Toxic Deluge

Death&Taxes
-4 FoW, -1 JtmS, -1 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Disfigure, +1 Darkblast, +1 Engineered Plague, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Toxic Deluge

Delver
-4 FoW, -1 JtmS, -1 Hymn
+1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Darkblast, +1 Disfigure, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 LftL, +1 Sylvan Library

Shardless Mirror
-4 FoW
+1 Garruk, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Notion Thief

Miracles
-2 Liliana of the Veil, -1 FoW
+1 Sylvan Library, +1 Garruk Relentless, +1 Notion Thief

Storm / Sneak+Show
-4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Jace
+2 Duress, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Golgari Charm

Elves / Goblins / Infect
-1 JtmS, -1 Force, -1 Clique, -1 Ancestral, -1 Goyf
+1 Engineered Plague, +1 Darkblast, +1 Disfigure, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm

Graveyard Decks (Reanimator, Dredge, Lands, Punishing Fire decks)
8% of the field. Is it worth dedicating sideboard slots? You require a critical mass, at least 4, to find them reliably. And they're dead cards against other decks.

Appreciate any thoughts.

*Edit, should post my main I suppose:

Creatures (16)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
3x Baleful Strix
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalkers (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Lands (21)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Wasteland

@grahilah: I wouldn't leave home without a Null Rod in my board. That card is just too good against so many matchups (Miracles, D&T, stoneblade decks, Storm, even rogue stuff like Tezzerator). I also wouldn't totally punt graveyard hate, I'd recommend grafdiggers cage since it's good against dredge and reanimator obviously but it's also respectable against storm and GSZ decks like elves.

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Originally Posted by Ephemeron

@grahilah: I wouldn't leave home without a Null Rod in my board. That card is just too good against so many matchups (Miracles, D&T, stoneblade decks, Storm, even rogue stuff like Tezzerator). I also wouldn't totally punt graveyard hate, I'd recommend grafdiggers cage since it's good against dredge and reanimator obviously but it's also respectable against storm and GSZ decks like elves.

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I have run Null Rod in the past. I was thinking that with the Blade decks being less popular, it wasn't doing enough in many matchups. I have been bringing it in less and less.

If I do run graveyard hate, Grafdigger's Cage would be the choice.

Thanks, appreciate your thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

Recent update on my miracles matchup (convo we had in another thread....that i cant find). Sideboarding, -2 hymn -2 baleful, -2 thoughtseize....+1 pithing needle, +2 golgari charm, +1 vclique, +2 pernicious deed.....felt great!

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What is the deed for? Siding out Hymns still doesn't convince me. Would side out a Lot of other cards before I cut hymns.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

What is the deed for? Siding out Hymns still doesn't convince me. Would side out a Lot of other cards before I cut hymns.

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Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

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Originally Posted by grahilah

I have run Null Rod in the past. I was thinking that with the Blade decks being less popular, it wasn't doing enough in many matchups. I have been bringing it in less and less.

If I do run graveyard hate, Grafdigger's Cage would be the choice.

Thanks, appreciate your thoughts.

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I actually debate about 2 pithing needles over a 1/1 split of needle and null rod.....null rod doesnt stop storm from using LED which is why i cut it.....but i always think of putting it back

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

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Hymn is important for making sure your key spells resolve and that Predict doesn't catch them back up. Extra discard should be either held for Brainstorm (since we want to play lands out to hardcast Force on Ruination and Entreat) or discarded to Liliana.

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

I actually debate about 2 pithing needles over a 1/1 split of needle and null rod.....null rod doesnt stop storm from using LED which is why i cut it.....but i always think of putting it back

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Needle doesn't do anything against Storm, but Null Rod shuts down all of their mana rocks.

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

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Disaggreed, CA still counts after all, top is good against single discard, but hymn is different. Obviously it is mostly good early. But it allows you to back up pressure by your creatures. And they can't jam Jace if you are ahead on board. Trying to outcontrol them seems like a losing track.

Ok Deed kills angels so? They just don't play it? It is not good early anyways and that is the stage where games are won against them. (Seems like a Horrible card in your opener). It is a card with 0 impact on the board nor CA and when they are comfortable ahead the just Tear it or Win with jace. Seems too narrow to me.

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

I actually debate about 2 pithing needles over a 1/1 split of needle and null rod.....null rod doesnt stop storm from using LED which is why i cut it.....but i always think of putting it back

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It does stop LED.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Disaggreed, CA still counts after all, top is good against single discard, but hymn is different. Obviously it is mostly good early. But it allows you to back up pressure by your creatures. And they can't jam Jace if you are ahead on board. Trying to outcontrol them seems like a losing track.

Ok Deed kills angels so? They just don't play it? It is not good early anyways and that is the stage where games are won against them. (Seems like a Horrible card in your opener). It is a card with 0 impact on the board nor CA and when they are comfortable ahead the just Tear it or Win with jace. Seems too narrow to me.

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I agree that Deed is much too narrow. It's not impossible to out-control them (wthe right SB plan), it's just silly to try since we have a better option in just grinding them out and bringing the value beats. If you juat want a solid utility card for the Miracles matchup and have a slot set aside for it, I recommend Hindering Touch. It's essentially a fifth Force, but it's much harder to counter and gets Jace as well as Entreat, which can't be said for other supplemental counters like Dimir Charm. It's prohibitive outside of the mirror, Miracles, and Blade matchups, but it's quite good in all of those, ao I'd only try it in a alow, fair metagame or if you're extremely confident in your other matchups, including combo.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

It does stop LED.

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Indeed, it's Pithing Needle that doesn't stop LED. Null Rod has no exception for mana abilities.

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

Angel tokens. Pops for 0

Hand hate for a deck with the goal of abusing top doesnt seem good. It just slows them down. But when they topdeck jace and you topdeck hymn. Ya get wrecked

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Maelstrom Pulse is pretty much just as effective as Deed in clearing out Angel Tokens, plus a bunch of other problem permanents like planeswalkers, enchantments, etc.

Deed on anything other than 0 threatens to blow your stuff up too, and against Miracles chances are you have more things on board than they do.

There are B(U)G decks that can use Deed effectively (mostly old BUG decks not played anymore, and Nic Fit), but not Shardless.