Printable View
Actually, I knew it only prevented damage. What I didn't know, and am embarrassed for not knowing, is that Tendrils of Agony is loss of life rather than damage. Guess it's just one of those things that was never relevant to me up until this point in my games against Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Took down a 55-men event with this monstruosity
[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Trinket Mage
2 Oracle of Mul-Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
3 Show and Tell
[SB]
3 Swan Song
1 Chalice of the Void
2 All is Dust
2 Moment's Peace
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
Beated Goblins, draw with Reanimator, then beated Dark Depths combo, Esper Stoneblade, lost to ANT and beated Jund. With a record of 4-1-1 went into top 8 as 7th seat, beating ANT and another Dark Depths combo to finally split 1st and 2nd prizes with another ANT.
Too many ANTs lately in my area! Giving the fact the TES is absolutely un-represented here, i'm more and more tempted to give Extract a try!
Nice win! Those are awful matchups to pull in a row.
How was all is dust?
This was what I was getting at a few post back with trinket,2/2 package being good at spell based decks. If I expect any non-zero amount of storm/belcher whatever, I want 1 Mage 1 chalice. If I expect a lot, more chalices.
I've honestly never drawn them, so basing on this tournament i can't really say. I brought them in against goblins, blade (which i'm pretty sure was a deathblade and not a stoneblade) and jund. From what i saw in my little testing it's just a strictly better answer than Karn and it helps you winning games where ppl are eager to crowd the battlefield with non-land permanents (with the exception of MUD, of course).
I've often felt Karn is an overcosted vindicate, because you can't protect him very well, and if you can protect him then you're already winning, aren't you?
Welcome to the 12Post club! The deck can be a great fit for certain types of players, specifically those who want to play high-impact cards, have very different games full of decision-making, and are not afraid to play an unorthodox strategy. The deck feels much different than any other Legacy deck at the moment, and it felt like the perfect deck for me since I started playing it over a year and a half ago. I saw your post and while I agree with much of Zotmaster's good analysis, I would like to offer some of my own insights to your questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
Glacial Chasm is a complicated card and requires a lot of foresight to play correctly. Against Burn and UR Delver, I never play Chasm preemptively and always wait to Crop Rotation for it in response to a Price of Progress. Otherwise, the opponent will just wait until you have to ditch the Chasm and then dump their PoP and other burn on you.Quote:
Q1.). Against an aggro deck, when is the best time to play glacial chasm? This is one thing I can't figure out because with crop rotation, it seems like I go retrieving it way to late. Most of the time I can't afford to be setback a land or two.
Against any aggro deck killing you through attacking creatures, you need to evaluate how fast the opponent is going to be hurting you. Say, if they are going to start swinging with a 7/2 Ornithopter the next turn, then you should really just get it into play and not worry about dropping to a specific minimum life total. If possible against these very fast strategies, get it on the battlefield at 13 life or above, so you can have three turns to try and work something out (usually a Show and Tell in these situations). Having Glimmerposts in hand can give you some leeway around the magic numbers for Chasm (13 life, 7 life) and a Vesuva can effectively give you another turn to live with a new Chasm.
I side out my utility lands much less than most other players here probably do. I never side out Karakas; not only is the possibility of going infinite with Emrakul crucial in many games, it is one of your 14-16 mana sources that come into play untapped, which is important for your early game maneuvering.Quote:
Q2.). After game 1, do you side out 1 of the unneeded utility lands? (Such as Karakas, chasm, Bojuka bog)
I keep Glacial Chasm in whenever the opponent will be winning through damage, even if they have a relatively slow damage clock. Many times you will get a Primeval Titan into play and the best land to fetch is the Chasm, to effectively fog the opponent the next turn. I only side it out against storm variants, Omniscience, and sometimes Sneak & Show (it is bad against an Emrakul annihilator trigger).
I will keep Bojuka Bog in even if I can get a little bit of value out of it (Deathrite Shamans, Goyfs, Snapcasters, etc.)
The answer is completely dependent on the situation, as others have stated. In your great matchups when you're under no real threats, just two Cloudposts or a Cloudpost and the Eye are fine to fetch and finish the game with. Against the dreaded ANT and TES, probably just get Glimmerposts every time. The Primeval Titan triggers are one of the big late game decisions that make the deck very difficult, but also very versatile and rewarding.Quote:
Q3.) Assuming you show and tell PrimeTime early, what's the best pair of lands to get?
Again, there is never a default choice for all situations. While playing this deck, instead of thinking, "This is what my deck is supposed to do, I should ramp up and aim for hardcasting Emrakul," you should play every opposing deck differently, based on your hand in each particular game. This may sound trivial, but I think that many players get too caught up in trying to play their deck according to what they think the Plan A route is (not just 12Post). But every game pans out differently, and improvising each game is probably a more sound strategy. You'll find that with this deck, you can often play yourself out of tight situations if you treat each situation differently.Quote:
Q4.) Assuming you hardcast PrimeTime, I assume that when you want to search for Eye of Ugin with the EoTB effect.
I hope you will continue to keep playing the Post. I believe this deck's ability to finish is its strongest point; a hardcasted Emrakul is probably the most resounding, inescapable win condition in the format, if you can assemble the right pieces. And the deck is simply the most fun in the format. :smile:
I have a couple of sideboard questions for the other experienced pilots here. For my combo hate, I would rather not fill 80% of the board with counterspells (Force, Swan Song, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap). Instead, I think I am going to keep half of it to fight combo and the other half for difficult but winnable matchups and just hope I don't run into too many combo decks. For a 7-8 card combo hate bunch, is there any merit to running some sphere effects? Against the storm builds, for example, I have found that the opponent will usually Duress/Cabal Therapy away your counters in hand. Ideally you want a Top in play with a counter on top of the deck, but that's not always easy to do. Sometimes I feel like dropping a Sphere of Resistance proactively is more problematic for them, fits our theme of playing to the battlefield, and also is better against hate like Silence and Xantid Swarm. Kurt Spiess's Lands build went heavy on sphere effects and it seemed to work fine for him. Granted, he had faster early mana and the mana denial of lands, but I think it is still worth a thought. I have turned away from Chalice of the Void for being anti-synergistic with the deck, and Trinisphere at 3 mana might be too slow. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on Sphere of Resistance? Lord Seth gave a good run-down of the most potential combo decks one might face. The most problematic matchups are clearly the decks that win without creatures, namely ANT, TES, High Tide and Omniscience. Seems like Sphere would be good against those, with some Swan Songs to supplement?
Another area of my sideboard I'm looking to shore up is 2-3 slots to hate both Elves and Death and Taxes. I used to run Cursed Totem, which is great against Elves, but only has minimal effect on what D&T is trying to do. There is also Oblivion Stone, but that is probably too slow against both decks. A while back, I remember people on here discussing Gut Shot against both of those builds. Against Elves, it can hit Wirewood Symbiote and Heritage Druid, both important parts to their combo. Against D&T, it kills a slew of creatures (Revoker, Thalia, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Mangara), so long as there is no Mother of Runes in play. If anyone has advice on Gut Shot, I would like to know because I am seriously considering it. Or any other cards, because I am really looking to have some more answers to these two decks, especially Death and Taxes.
By the way, I caved in and finally bought the 12Post build on MODO a few weeks ago (under the same name as here). Started playing the mono green build, then felt handicapped without the blue. Now I am trying to solve the U/G sideboard. So if you play online, you might see me playing this on there.
I just took the plunge as well. I am having a lot of fun (success) with the following semi-budget non-optimal list:Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
4 Crop Rotation
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Primeval Titan
4 Repeal
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Brainstorm
4 Cloudpost
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Tropical Island
2 Pithing Needle
2 Island
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 Expedition Map
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
2 Moment's Peace
Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trinket Mage
3 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
2 Envelop
2 Elephant Grass
4 Swan Song
Thus far I have been more than impressed with the GSZ although I have not actually faced too many decks where I need to be able to SnT on turn 3 (i.e., not a lot of combo or tempo games thus far), just a ton of miracles and esper deathblade.
I am looking forward to being able to contribute my thoughts to these forums...
Won a small tournament yesterday in Darmstadt, Germany.
Play this deck for the first time and liked it a lot!
My list is far away from being perfect, but worked very well for me. Oracles and Trinkets were MVPs, give you so much action against late-game and mid-game decks.
Actually, I own only one Candelabra...but he was a nice have when I drawed him and not missed when not.
Team N!´s "D Generation X"
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [OD] Forest (4)
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (aka Tripe H)
4 [M11] Primeval Titan (aka the Klique)
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (aka Shawn Michaels)
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
// Spells
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
Luckily, I did the best what the deck can do - dodge storm decks...damn, 10 sideboard slots wasted for this tournament...I like the idea of Sphere of Resistance very much and will try this.
round 1: RW Painter
I was a little bid sad...painter is MY deck, I played it since 5 years, and never played a mirror match...this would have been my chance...he Blood Mooned every game, but Forest / Vesuva let me hardcast Titans and go beatdown, and game 3 Oblivion Stone trade 7 to 2. Nice to know how to play against painter. He tried to Blast my Posts several times (Painter naming blue), but I was able to repeal the Painter in response. Nice.
1-0, 2:1
round 2: UR Delver
Two very straight games, he could not do much about the fatties. Game 2 his next draw would have been price of progress, just to late...Before that, he had Blood Moon (again)...but I had enough lands to hardcast Emrakul with all the Mountains...
2-0, 4:1
round 3: BUG Delver
Game 1 he had first turn delver, second turn flip, beat me down to five. I didn´t get over three lands the first turns, unable to do a lot, baited some dazes. He get Goyf, I try to play Show and Tell, it resolves, Primeval Titan into 2 Glimmerposts, back to life. Repeal his flipped Delver, next turn attack with Titan, fetching Chasm. He attacked in Chams, read that card and scooped. Game 2 was turn 5 Show and Tell into Emrakul, not much action from him.
3-0, 6:1
round 4: 4 Color Loam
Seems a good matchup for me. Life, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquiary seems to be a lot of work, but rest of the deck is fair. Game one he first turn goes Confidant via Mox Diamond, doesn´t get his sceond land for a while, wastes me some Posts, Titan hardcast get me there. Game 2 I Needled his Knights, he fetches Karakas und Maze before this. Mazed Titan every turn, I fetched ALL lands from my deck, he needled Eye of Ugin, I hardcast Kozilek, he bounced it with Karakas every turn...long grindy game, Bojuka Bog made Knights small, 2 Titans and a Trinket attacked for the win.
4-0, 8:1
Overall, liked this list a lot and would not change much.
I've tested Sphere of Resistance quite recently and dropped the idea for a number of reasons. I know it may sound appealing, but truth is that's a card a bit too unrelyable for us to fight any combo deck. Even if we exclude the possibility that if you are on the draw you risk not to have even the occasion to play it, our main problem with that delaying hate is that we're terribly slow at killing and i guarantee you, a single sphere wont save you long from a couple of thresholded Cabal Rituals or a Gaea's Cradle. The main difference with lands.deck is that they run a quicker combo too (Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths), so they hopefully need to slow combo decks 2-3 turns more in order to assemble it and strike. Our plan is a totally different one, for we have to cumulate a consistent number of lands before playing our menaces and that's why i fear the Sphere plan doesn't really suit us.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
Chalice, on the other hand, is a totally different beast. It will stop the chosen cmc cards at any step of the game, meaning that if set at 0 or at 2 (i never had the heart to set it at 1 honestly) it will nerf those spells forever, totally uncaring the monstrous amounts of mana one may have.
Also, run Force of Wills, for they are too good not to. I usually side them in against Death and Taxes too, for they can save you from Armageddon/Cataclysm while not giving your opponent an additional, evasive beater (see Swan Song)
Congrats Jens! :smile: Was nice to see you doing so well with the deck yesterday! Now I am even more looking forward to play it soon! Maybe we should plan on some testing sessions!Quote:
Originally Posted by slayjay
Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
Yes, spheres on the draw are just to slow. And gut shot is also not so good, I tested it (also to kill xantid swarm) and it was really weak, if you wanna play gut shot play explosives over it. Kills all elves, all mana artifacts, all goblin tokens, xantid swarm, the guy you wannta not havint to pay for thalia. and so. I think the best vs storm are this card (also being good vs others)
Swansong
revoker
mindbreak
fow
fluster
explosives
gleen elendra (tested this a lot in the UG build and if I land it I win 99%)
Thanks, christopher! We should keep that in mind. But my usual testing is in torunaments like yesterday :DQuote:
Originally Posted by venice
Hello Eldrazi lovers!
I will start my first post in this thead with the following disclaimer:
I am not an experienced 12 post player, by far, so I apologize if my proposition seems too bad in the eyes of other experienced players here. Also, English is not my primary langage, so please forgive me for that!
I have been playing the UG version of the deck for just a few weeks now, and I was wondering whether a RG version would work. I like the RUG version of Rock Lee a lot for the removal spells it provides, but the mana base is kind of shaky. So I started to think about dropping all the blue spells. Of course, this might make us more vulnerable to Combo decks because the sideboard would have fewer options to offer.
Here is my current RG "punishing post" list (I provide some comments below the list):
Lands (26)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures (6)
1 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
4 Primeval Titans
Other Spells (28)
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Punishing Fire
3 Moment's Peace
4 Crop Rotation
2 Sneak Attack
3 Exploration Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
Sideboard (15)
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
2 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Mindbreak Trap
I was not satisfied with the Repeals in the UG version, because they are just temporary answers to opponent's creatures. Punishing Fire and Bonfire of the Damned are really good control cards and they deal permanently with opposing creatures. They can also provide some reach when needed (with a Candelabra it is not uncommon to be able to kill opponent with a 15+ damage Bonfire). Also, I don't find Brainstorm so great in this deck. And the last blue spell, Show & Tell, can be replaced by Sneak Attack (I find it insane to be able to fetch 4 lands in a single turn when sneaking' in a Titan).
The sideboard still needs a lot of work to be able to compete with Combo decks. The 2 Pyroclasm and the 2 Choke could be replaced by 4 Phyrexian Revoker for example. Krosan Grip is very important because we don't have ways to get rid of artifacts or enchantments main deck (the Repeals are gone).
So far, I have been testing versus Death & Taxes and RUG delver. I think our matchup improves vs. these 2 decks compared to the UG version of 12 post. I haven't tested versus combo decks yet.
What do you guys think about it? Do you see any key cards I missed either in Green or Red? How could we build a better sideboard especially to fight against Combo?
I like the idea. But with do you really need 3 Moment's Peace in the deck ? You already have 7 blasts to handle opponents creatures.
Also I would prefer to play GSZ over Sneak Attack (adding 1/2 Oracle of Mul Daya in the list).
Don't you miss Ulamog ?
@slayjay you joust bought a foil crop rotation at mkm from me.
Enjoy it and crop your posts (:
Hahahaha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Hahaha nice one :-)
Thanks, I had to pimp this deck after yesterday´s victory.
Replies in red.Quote:
Originally Posted by gmantle31
@edk
Thank you for your comments.
I take your argument about Moment's Peace, it could be replaced by something else. At one point, I was considering playing Ancient Stirrings instead.
Why would you prefer GSZ over Sneak Attack? Fetching 4 lands in the same turn with a Titan is just so huge...
I have never tried Oracle of Mul Daya since I never played the mono green version of the deck. I will test it!
I could replace one Moment's Peace with Ulamog, which would be a solution to permanents other than creatures (something I cannot handle since Repeal is out of the deck).
How do you figure a highly-saturated tempo strategy like RUG is a cakewalk? Taxing counters and the ability to stunt the deck's primary focus of advancing the board state with cards like Wasteland and Stifle can throw opening draws out of whack and force the Post player to invest their resources to find answers as opposed to just winning.
I wouldn't say it's a "cake walk"; that seems egregious and superficial at best to dishonor a potentially strong pilot with such a powerful archetype. It's really not hard to throw this deck off its resources early and repurpose lines of play while taking shots of five to eight damage a turn - discounting burn.
I get there are virtual "Time Walks" in the deck, but still. This isn't a ramp deck, and that can sometimes not work to the pilot's advantage against an archetype tailored to thoroughly strip you of your resources.
At what point would you play Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, and not just be better off playing Sneak and Show?Quote:
Originally Posted by gmantle31