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There is a minimum density you need to run Force, and beyond that density it's my opinion the argument "it pitches to Force" loses relevance. I've seen many competitive Vintage and some Legacy decks run as low as 15 blue cards main total (including Force itself), and 1/4 gives you good odds of having the pitch card in an opener (almost 82%).Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
There are other tradeoffs for the card choice obviously, but I'll let Cpt-Qc speak to that.
I do not adhere to the "it pitches to force" argument that much. As said above, it's greatly overestimated.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
Even then, I have more than enough to hit the magic number (18 including forces).
Also I do like the fact that imp allow me to beat DRS much easier (by discarding twice) and that I can function solely on black if needed.
Imps also make mean attackers with Elesh Norn on the field (4/4 flying) which negates her downside of being slow and letting the opponent find an answer.
The imps, ponders and misdirection are really all flex slots so you can adjust how you prefer. EDIT: Also forgot about it but Show and Tell is a flex.
It's true hapless lets you filter, but you only have 1 shot at it really and it's gone. It does not cantrip as some people say because you still end up at -1.
I'm intrigued by Imp, TBH - but I think you may need to re-read the card. Pitching a card gives it flying, and Threshold (+1/+1) can only be applied once and it removes Imp's ability to block. Am I mis-interpreting what you mean by "beat DRS much easier (by discarding twice)"? With a discard and threshold, Imp would be 2/2 flying that can't block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
Now the combo w/ Elesh, I'm down w/ that!
I think the idea is that if you have multiple creatures stuck in your hand you can play around a DRS by baiting them into eating the 1st creature discarded and then discarding the 2nd creature and reanimating it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCreep
Exactly. And it can still block as long as you don't have ThresholdQuote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
The card has drawbacks of course but as I said the deck has a lot of flex slots so it's all a matter of preference and/or meta.
Hey, guys! Another Griselbrand lover here from Brazil. This is my first post here in The Source and English is not my native language, so I'm sorry for any mistakes.
I'm here to tell you about the last tournament that I went with my Reanimator deck - the first one after I finally "completed" it. And I say "completed" because I don't have any ABUR Duals (Underground Sea here costs about 2 times our monthly minimum wage), but a friend lent me two Underground Seas and one Tropical Island for the tournament.
Well, enough of bla bla bla! Here's my list (a pretty stock one):
Quote:
//Lands
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
//Spells
1 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
3 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
//Creatures
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 1 Sire of Insanity
SB: 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
TOURNAMENT REPORT:
First Match - Bant 0-1
On the play, I open with one land, one entomb and exhume. To combo off on turn 2, all I needed was another land, a lotus petal or reanimate. I play fetch and pass. He plays fetch, tropical, shaman. I entomb between turns and draw a griselbrand. Oops. Pass the turn, he deploys another shaman and the reanimate plan was off. Tried to achieve 6 lands to play grave titan, but it gets countered. Game 2, I open with the turn-2-combo assembled in my hand. Fetch, pass. He goes fetch, land, Grafdigger's cage. I never see one abrupt decay the entire game, tried the Grave titan plan again and it gets countered again.
Second Match - BUG Reanimator 1-1
On the play again, opened a beautiful hand, but had no lands and only one petal. Mulligan to terrible 6, with lots of cantrips and no combo pieces, but tried it anyway. My opponent throws Iona on his grave but does not bring her to the BF. I draw reanimate, he forces, I force and steal her, naming black. 3 turns later, GG. Game 2, I bring my griselbrand early. Next turn, he brings his. I attack, he does not block, I send both of em to our hands with echoing truths, and activate grisel to draw a ton of cards in response. He didn't have the life to activate his, and brainstorms 3 times trying to find a force, but fails. Eventually I brought his inkwell leviathan to finish the game.
Third Match - Eldrazi 2-1
Tough match. Game 1 he goes Eldrazi temple, Mimic and ask me if I want to force it. I say "NOP TKS". I play fetch and say go. He plays thought-knot seer and asks me to see my hand. I break the fetch, entomb a grisel and daze it. Next turn I play undeground sea again, go. He plays a land, and Reality Smasher. I daze it again. He complains a little and pass. I play land, animate dead on grisel. He does nothing. I draw a ton, reanimate a grave titan and he scoops. Game two he starts with a chalice for one, which I force. He then plays Karakas and laughs. I play Pithing Needle naming Karakas and in the next turn, Grisel's back to play.
Fourth Match - Merfolk 3-1
This guy had some bad luck and played by my side in the first match, so I knew what he was piloting. Game 1 I start on the play (the dice were really kind to me that day) and on the second turn I had one Iona for blue. GG. The second match he starts fast with Vial. I cheat a grisel to play, he sends it to my hand back with Harbinger (uncounterable via aether vial). He has 3 fishes in play, game looks lost, but I manage to reanimate one Elesh. Game drags on a little, but superGrisel comes to save the day again.
Fifth Match - BUG Delver 4-1
At this point, I discovered that the tournament didn't have a top 8 cut, so we had to play the last round to define the prizes. Game 1 he starts real hard, going Delver-Transform-Delver. I Mulliganed and found a hand with Iona, two reanimate spells and lands. He Hymm To Tourach's me turn 3, sending Iona and one of the spells to the grave. "Oops.. It's possible that I helped you" he says. Next turn, Iona for black. The game drags as he was buying only black cards (he even tried to play a Gurmag, forgetting that Iona was in play) and I was drawing only reanimate spells. He tries to play goyf, I force. I reanimate his goyf and beat him with his own toy to the game. Game 2 I can't recall perfectly, because I was too nervous (facing the fact that I could win the game and place really well). Grisel did its job drawing cards, gaining life and beating the hell out of everyone. Game, set and match!
FINAL SCORE:
I only lost the first round, and my opponent went 5-0 after that. So my percentage was really high and I managed to finish second in the tournament, winning a beautiful Blood Moon. Great!
THOUGHTS:
I guess I was kind of lucky. I managed to scape from all the death and taxes and miracles, won all the dice rolls and drew everything I needed. But here are some insights:
1 - If you can't afford ABUR Duals playsets, one option is to buy only one or two of the ones that you need. I've tried the deck with shocks and they usually work, but sometimes that 2 points of life are the difference of activating griselbrand or not. But with 2 seas, you almost never have to bring those shocks untapped.
2 - Pithing needle and abrupt decay came in almost every games. Ponder and petal usually went out.
3 - I had doubts about grave titan, but the ETB is really worth it.
4 - I really need something to replace Sphinx in the sideboard. Suggestions?
5 - Tidespoust Tyrant always seems kinda slow. I have to reanimate it and play another spell, and that seems hard to do in the same turn.
METAGAME:
1º - Felipe Duarte (Bant)
2º - Gabriel Padilha (Reanimator)
3º - Victor Cabral (Death and taxes)
4º - Mauro Edi (Grixis Delver)
5º - Hugo Vasconcelos (Miracles)
6º - Julio Junior (Merfolks)
7º - Marcelo Brigido (BUG Delver)
8º - Andre Albuquerque (Affinity)
Jansen Chiganer (UR Delver)
Carlos Galhardo (UR Delver)
Patrick Andrade (Reanimator)
Eduardo Hallak (4 Color Delver)
Felipe Silva (Miracles)
Paulo Silva (Burn)
Tito Costa (Eldrazi)
Breno Correa (Miracles)
Anderson Silva (Merfolks)
Felipe Alheiro (Eldrazi)
Rodrigo Sousa (UW Stoneblade)
Max Minato (Shardless BUG)
Guilherme Tonini (Burn)
Tarcisio Nunes (Burn)
Pablo Iacovazzo (Miracles)
Dyagnes Cohen (Death and Taxes)
Rafael Simonelli (Esper Mentor)
I'd love to hear some insights and your opinions!
Thank you and I'm sorry for the long post.
Hi guys, trying the deck out this week. Last night I tested vs. D&T and won by turboing out Elesh game 1 and Iona game 2 while fading Karakas. But then I played against shardless bug with DRS and Grafdiggers Cage post board. Am I supposed to keep in counters here? I boarded in 2 decay, 2 duress, a needle, couple collective Bs... But not sure if I should've just kept my counters in. Maybe cut daze for spell pierce? Is this a matchup where we really just want to jam S&T?
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Here is one guys opinion on SB'ingQuote:
Originally Posted by maharis
thank you, that is helpful.
Went 3-0 last night with this list, but it's still a little bit of a mess. Beat Eldrazi, UR Delver, and Lands.
3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb
3 Daze
3 Ponder
1 Collective Brutality
1 Animate Dead
4 Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Duress
2 Collective Brutality
2 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Massacre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
For the people playing Animate Dead, how do you like it? Do you find it gets boarded out if they are playing Abrupt Decay? Do you assume they will board out decay being they know what you are playing?
It's useful for a handful of scenarios, most notably with Tidespout Tyrant being able to protect itself via an instant in response to Decay/StP/Terminus, bouncing the Enchantment and letting the Tyrant return to the yard, countering the spell due to checks the game makes (or rendering the non-targetting spell useless, i.e. Terminus). Then, after the stack resolves or during your next main phase, re-deploy your Animate Dead and continue winning.
Also gets through a Cursecatcher, as well as not being a legal target for Flusterstorm.
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I agree with all of that and want to add that 8 reanimation spells is not enough anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I agree that 8 is not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by jattra
I used to play the 8 package + 2 animate dead but I really hated giving abrupt decay a good target G1 so I switched to 2 SnT.
I am slower against a few matchups but I can actually give DRS decks a fight now (plenty in my meta).
Decay is almost always boarded out against us. Sometimes they leave some in if they're out of stuff to bring in but they are generally better served by boarding targeted discard, counters and permanent hate (RIP, Cage, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
They should only bring in discard against reanimator if they are on the play. Reanimator is too fast for things like Thoughtseize on the draw. It's not absolutely incorrect, but a turn 1 DRS is probably the more correct play, and will be relevant longer. Discard loses a lot of value after a reanimator player's second turn.
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Totally agree Bee.
Animate Dead vs Decay or any one particular answer is too narrow an analysis to matter, I think. And oh no, the creature goes to my graveyard if Animate Dead gets destroyed! Whatever shall I do? :tongue:
People need to appreciate the natural speed and redundancy of our combo. Play those extra copies, up to 10 or 11 total reanimation spells. We "have it" so much more often than other combos, it's insane.
Question for the forum, What makes the UB version of reanimator better then the RB version?
Which version do you think is better for the current meta?
What are the pros and cons from one to the other?
I like the idea of playing the blue splash but the idea of having bloodmoon out of the sideboard seems way to tempting.
It's basically like a prism style reanimator deck.
Blue adds consistency and helps with boarded games.
If players in your meta have no GY hate (they would be crazy not to), you could probably do better with BR (1 turn faster most of the time).
If on the other hand people in your meta are not so narrow-minded as to have no GY hate in Legacy, UB will probably do better.
You can find missing pieces and sideboard cards easier and rebuild your hand if you whiffed.
Stryfo and others have a 4c build they use. Red is for Izzet Charm, mostly, but can have uses out of the board. I like it a bunch when it's not being temperamental.
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Good writeup and congratulations on a good finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrielpadilha
How is the meta in your area? I am always curious who metas vary in different regions.
I don't really think it can be reasonably argued that U/B isn't better, the cantrip engine backed by Force protection that permeates Legacy is generally the most skill-rewarding option. Badlands costing 1/4 of what Underground Sea does isn't arbitrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
That said, Legacy is a skill-rewarding format with most any playable deck. If you love it then learn it and play it. You can do some pretty amazing stuff even with something godawful like Belcher.
If we're talking meta, pure U/B is kind of overshadowed by splashes for Abrupt Decay and/or Izzet Charm. I believe it's still pretty neck-and-neck in the hands of a skilled pilot, but versatile removal really does shore up the major weakness of the deck: hatebears.