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If you having problems with Miracles, try running Phyrexian Negator. That card will absolutely wreck them. The clock is too fast if it resolves, and is also good against combo. Also Duress is a good option for Miracles too.
No Lightning Bolt??? Would help against YP or other creature removal.
I assume Bile Blight is ran over bolt because black cards pitch to Soul Spike. And fetching for red early leaves us vulnerable to wasteland before we hit the crucial 3 mana mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
Some combination of Disfigure, Dismember and Marsh Casualties / Deluge might work as well I think.
I love very much negator!!! I'm trying to re-build a "classic" suicide list to run it!!! But with a lot of burns spell around i think i will put it in SB for combo/control/no red MU...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
Something like this:
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 gatekeeper of malakir
3 snuff out
2 umezawa's jitte
3 pithing needle
8 fetch lands
9 swamp
4 wasteland
SB
2 tormod's crypt
3 dystopia
3 phyrexian negator
3 extirpate
4 engineered plague
Classic desruption/tempo packege with discards, LD and snuff out but i choose Thought seize over IoK to have the possibility to cut ALL i want...crucial when facing FoW, sneak attack, jace, batterskull etc..
I love my beta specters...i need them :-)
4 Tombstalker are not hard to play with a lot of fetch lands and discard spells, it is a fast clock and not many decks can deal with.
Nantuko....old glory...i can't find anything better... :-(
Gatekeeper is an extra removal with legts... maybe chump blocker
3 pithing needles as an answer for SdT, planeswalkers, vials, shamans, stoneforges....i can't play monoblack without them...
I will try to find the room for a singleton phyrexian arena or skeletal scrying...
I'm testing this list with my friends who plays merfolks, D&T and UG infect...it works very well!!!
Next time i'll try other fair MUs like grixis, Bug delver, uwr patriot....
I am gonna post my updated Suicide Black list later today with card explanations which I think is more optimized with todays meta. I am at work now so, but think your on the right track and my list has a few tweeks from yours.
I think bitterblossom warrants a slot here in the 75. Resolving it against miracles puts you in a pretty good spot.
@Ralf and disgustipated
Very interesting deck. I will be sleeving it up. I think the deck can be very strong bc very few decks punish you for paying half your life for drawing 4 cards. Not too much burn in the meta. You should be ahead after the draw 4 as long as you are not punished for the life loss.
Some thoughts: What about a single chrome mox. Seems like the perfect deck for it. Also, lotus petal. I don't think it can go in here now bc you want to get to and stay at the 3 mana mark but if the curve were a little lower....
Also, what about taking out bile blights and soul spikes and putting in bolts/IoKs/or something else. Seems like the deck can get more out of those spots.
Messenger and Gatekeeper seem really good. Have you thought about {cards} young pyromancer, Goblin Rabblemaster? Or about Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker for the Empty the Pits slot.
disgustipated... hope you keep streaming the deck!
Whats the newest lists...?
Sorry guys, I am on vacations right now and have very little time to play magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgustipated
I have spent a lot of time thinking about sweepers before submitting the list to you.
I did try toxic deluge in the past.
Just keep in mind that the main problem is not to clog our hands with 3 CMC spells and they are plenty already.
Cutting some 2 CMC spells (bile blight to name it) might be dangerous in the long run.
Cutting some 3 CMC spells could be an option. But it will be detrimental to our clock because you would most likely cut some gatekeeper or geralf.
If this is the path you want to take. Why not. Just keep testing to be sure it is not detrimental to other MU.
Keep in mind that the deck core, as I built it, was about spiking and drawing 4. If any of you come with better wincons (gate, geralf, empty) and better control tools, please share your discovery.
Instant and sorcery speed is also something to consider.
For example cutting Geth's verdict and replacing them with bile blight made me weak to Marit lage EOT strategy but it improved the token MU.
You could also look at Fire covenant in the sweeper category. Not as strong as toxic can be, but instant speed can be a matter of life or death.
Also I am not sold yet on the red splash. Being reactive is nice and all but I think 4 REB effect is one too many. This could open a slot for another sweeper in the side.
Keep in mind that our worse enemies are hard control decks and combo ones.
If I had to make any changes right now I would test 4 thoughtseize intensively instead of inquisition of kozilek and cut a REB effect in the side for either another sweeper or another anti combo/control card.
Keep rocking suicide.
Once you go black, you never go back !!!
Hello,
I attempted to a legacy tournament this week-end and finished 15th.
7 swiss rounds for 69 players.
Here is the list I played (revamped) since the DTT ban:
Black Suicide by Ralf.
Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
3 Bayou
3 Dark ritual
Kill conditions
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits
Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain
Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage
Round 1 -> Draw against D&T. 1/1 (huge miss play that cost me G2. Should have been a win)
Round 2 -> Win against Jund. 2/1
Round 3 -> Lose against Miracle. 0/1
Round 4 -> Win against BUG Tempo. 2/0
Round 5 -> Win against Miracle. 2/1 (should have been 2/0 but I got a game loss coming from a registration error)
Round 6 -> Win against Miracle. 2/0
Round 7 -> Lose against 4c loam. 2/1 (that was the win-and-in. Mana death G2 & G3.)
If you have any question or if you want something more detailed, please feel free to ask.
Just bought all the necessary cards to build this deck.
Looks a very fun concept. Any advice to play the deck? Do you mostly shoot of creatures with the soul spikes or mainly at the opponent or just based on the situation? And do you push the Empty the Pits very early or only when you have board control?
I love dark ritual, and especially when you can spam it turn one with a HTT and a Thoughtseize/IoK. But also with Empty the Pits.
When is a good moment to use one of your 'draw 4' cards? ASAP or just when your hand is getting depleted? With the second, you 'save' more lives, but with the first, it's 'easier' to cast a Death's Shadow sooner.
If you have details about your games, that would be great!
Hello Xod,
First thing of all things, thank you for showing some interest.
I'll try my best to answer any questions you might have.
Soul Spike
There is not only one way to play SS.
As you wrote, it mainly depends on the situation (and your/oppo's hands).
BUT the more you'll play the deck, the better you'll know when you have to play it ASAP.
Sometimes, killing a flipped delver ASAP is the best play (obviously when you have access to no other options and you feel like your hand is very very slow).
Otherwise, I usually try to keep & hide this card as much as I can; just because it is just such a blowout...
Draw 4
I don't pretend the learning curve of this deck to be among the hardest...BUT, knowing when to play a draw 4 will often be a matter of life or death.
First you have to assess what "role" you are playing against what MU.
If you are on the aggro side, the faster, the better (control, combo).
Vice-versa if you are in the control seat (Burn, Tempo mainly), the latter, the better.
As you have already caught up the best play will always be based on any situation.
For example, against combo (post side), one of the best possible opening hand could be something like that:
T1 -> fetch + TS
T2-> DR + draw 4 + fetch + DS (death's shadow) + surgical extraction
And you already have a 8+/8+ ready to "rox" by T3.
Empty the Pits
As a one-of, you won't always see the card in every MU.
Here again, it mainly depends on the situation and on what you are trying to achieve.
This card shines against grindy MU (mainly against midrange decks: Jund, Shardless, D&T preside, etc...).
Against these MU, I usually wait until the very last moment to unleash it.
Example: the last game against the Jund player in my report, I waited until he ultimated me with liliana, took all the mana in my pool and let the ulti to resolve. End of turn, I made 8 zombie tokens.
For my opponent, this was a digusting loss when he thought he had the game "under control".
Just tell me what kind of details you want.
Here is the sideboard plan I used during the last tournament (might need a lot of improvments as I'm not playing as much as I would like; base is not yet covered up as much as I would like as Burn and obviously 4 color loam are missing).
Elves
1 Golgari charm
2 Engineered plague
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
3 Surgical extraction
-1 Swamp
-2 Infernal Contract
-4 Soul Spike
-1 Empty the Pits
-2 HTT
-2 Gatekeeper
Sneak
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari
2 Pithing Needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
-2 Soul spike
-4 Abrupt Decay
-3 Dismember
-1 Swamp
RUG Delver
2 Liliana
1 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical extraction
2 Engineered Plague
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain
-2 Soul Spike
-1 Empty the Pits
-2 HTT
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
Jund
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
-2 HTT
-2 Soul Spike
-1 Dark ritual
-1 Infernal Contract
Shardless
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
2 Liliana
-2 HTT
-3 Soul Spike
-2 Dark Ritual
-1 Infernal Contract
BUG Delver
2 Liliana
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
-2 Infernal Contract
-3 Soul Spike
-1 Empty the Pits
-2 HTT
Storm
2 Liliana
3 Surgical extraction
2 Engineered plague
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Golgari charm
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
-2 Abrupt decay
-1 Empty the Pits
-3 Dismember
-4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
-1 Swamp
Miracle (non monastery)
2 Liliana
2 Pithing needle
3 Surgical extraction
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
-3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
-3 Dismember
-2 Thougthseize
-3 Dark ritual
-2 Abrupt Decay
D&T
2 Pithing needle
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana
1 Spinning darkness
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Reanimate
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 empty the pits
-3 Soul spike
-4 HTT
-2 Infernal Contract
MUD
2 Liliana
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Reanimate
-4 Soul Spike
-1 Dark Ritual
-4 TS
Infect
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spinning darkness
3 Surgical Extraction
-1 Swamp
-1 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain
-1 Soul Spike
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Empty the Pits
-1 Gatekeeper
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Hymn to Tourach
Reanimator
2 Liliana
1 Sylvan Library
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Reanimate
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 HTT
-1 Empty the Pits
-1 Swamp
-1 Infernal Contract
-1 Soul Spike
Eldrazi
2 Liliana
3 Surgical extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Engineered Plague
1 Reanimate
-4 Soul Spike
-3 Dark Ritual
-1 TS
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain
Burn
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Reanimate
3 Surgical extraction
-2 Cruel Bargain
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Overgrown Tomb
-1 Thoughtseize
If you have any questions, feedbacks...etc.
Feel free to shoot.
Happy testing.
Cheers,
Ralf.
Edit 1: Infect updated
Edit 2: Eldrazi + Burn added / Sideboard tables were reworked to include a Reanimate instead of the 2nd Spinning Darkness
I think this is a 7/7 :wink: but math aside, doesn't that leave you extremely vunerable to for example a Tendrils of Agony with a very low storm count? (of course with a hidden Soul Spike it can work, but it's risky, heck, it's Suicide Black :laugh:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Abrupt Decay out against infect??? I would say it's quite good against it. Instant removal that can't be countered, no matter how big the creature gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
EDIT: ok I was thinking, checked it, and indeed, the 'nonland' part might be your reason. :smile:
Also, my main 'budget' problem is that I don't have liliana's. I might include Geth's Verdict or Innocent Blood for the moment (in the SB)
I should have made a life breakdownQuote:
Originally Posted by Xod
T1 = 17 (fetch + TS)
T2= draw 4 -> 8 (lifeloss is rounded up), then fetch -> 7, then surgical for phyrexian mana = 5
So...DS should be 8+/8+ on your turn 3.
My friend played against ANT twice during the same tournament (nearly the same list but he can't get rid off Messenger...) and he killed a storm player on a G1 with SS because his opponent went all the way down with Ad Nauseam. Hilarious to say the least.
Against Infect, I admit the sideboard guide must be pushed to its limit. Getting rid of AD might not be the best idea and numbers might be tweaked. If anyone wants to help for sideboard strategy after a good bunch of testing, he is more than welcome.
Liliana works as an anti-combo/control/midrange tools. All-in-one.
She will be hard to replace. I have no idea for the moment for such another card which provide so many angle of attacks.
Let me think about it a bit.
I may be able to come up with a budget replacement.
Vines of Vastwood begs to differ. Not saying AD isn't good against infect, but its not unstoppable, and there are other options that can get Inkmoth also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
Dammit, I missed the second fetch. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I know I need Lilly (for so many decks that I want to build, need to do the investment, investment of Nic Fit almost complete, need 2 more Savannah) If you only need to replace the discard, then you can use bottemless pit (which is slighty better against them, but also worse for you)
Also, will try the list with IoK first, because I don't own Thoughtseizes (another must buy). In your previous list it was not so necessary, but with Death's Shadow, I think TS is a must. (plus the better effect ofcourse)
Btw, I love Geraf Messenger also, what did he replace in your list to keep them in? The Shadows?
3 BayouQuote:
Originally Posted by Xod
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
2 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Geralf's Messenger
1 Empty the Pits
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
4 Soul Spike
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Cruel Bargain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Infernal Contract
4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
4/3 Finish.
4CC delver : win 2/0.
Burn : loss 0/2.
Instant rea : loss 0/2
soldier stompy : win 2/0
storm : win 2/0
storm : win 2/0
burn : loss 0/2
He lost twice to Burn where I think my list is better and he made sideboard mistakes.
He lost to Rea because he is stupid :)
Edit:
1) He lost to burn because DRS + DS are a beating
2) He lost to burn because he spiked a creature and his opponent bolted it in response to prevent him from gaining life.
3) He lost to burn because he didn't learn from his previous mistake by spiking an active lavamancer.
4) He lost to Instant Rea because he didn't go for "entomb" type of card instead of going for "reanimation" spells...
Should I go any further ? That damn fool should have top'd 8 this tournament...
This I don't understand, DRS + DS are good against Burn, are they not? DRS for lifegain purposes if necessary and DS keeps growing. Of course never on the field at the same time. Or would you leave them out all together?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Also, Spinning Darkness, does it gain you 3 lifes when you target a creature with it and they destroy it in response? Or does it fizzle because it doesn't have a target? Because the gain life part is a different line. (Am I such a noob? :cry:)
1) His list differs from mine because he is playing 1 less DRS and 1 less DS. They can swing the match in your favor very easily (I showed him how my burn MU was better than his afterwards because of that)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
2) Yeah, Spinning Darkness will fizzle if the target is no longer legal (dead). That's why you must pay extra care to when you play it (when your oppo is tapped out is the best time). If not, at least it is another blast that you won't take in your face.
This a case, where all of the targeted portions of a spell have fizzled, and thus all of the non-targeted portions of the spell
will not resolve
From the Comprehensive Rules
608.2b
If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s moved out of the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process to determine its characteristics. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word “target,” are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally, affecting only the targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or ability can’t perform any actions on it or make the target perform any actions.
Example:
Aura Blast is a white instant that reads, “Destroy target enchantment. Draw a card.” If the enchantment isn’t a legal target during Aura Blast’s resolution (say, if it has gained protection from white or left play), then Aura Blast is countered. Its controller doesn’t draw a card.
Example:
Plague Spores reads, “Destroy target nonblack creature and target land. They can’t be regenerated.” Suppose the same animated land is chosen both as the nonblack creature and as the land, and the color of the creature land is changed to black before Plague Spores resolves. Plagues Spores isn’t countered because the black creature land is still a legal target for the “target land” part of the spell.
3) He should have targetted his opponent with SS, everytime. the +4/-4 differential is HUGE and not so easy to overcome for a burn player.
The 27th I will hopefully test the deck. If you should have a replacement of liliana, I’ll hear it gladly ;-)
Thanks for all the great guidelines!
At least get some practise with it before going *live*.
A bunch of play tests against a deck belonging to each archetype (aggro, combo, control) should be a minimum.
I have thought about replacing the Lilis to meet your budget constraints.
I came to the conclusion that you should make it a meta 2-slots.
If you have no idea, I would pick the following:
- Hypnotic Specter might be the closest card to Liliana's effect in the sense that it is good against Control & Combo.
- You can also try Funeral Charm. This card is harder to play but can be a true blowout.
Have fun.
Just did the purchase of 4 Thoughtseizes (already a big bite out of my budget) and I only have 2 bayou (I substitute the third with an overgrown tomb, it will be ok, plus I can fetch this one if I need to drop lifes to 'safe' a Death's Shadow or do a crucial blow)
Thanks for the tips on the Hippie and Funeral Charm. I used Funeral Charm in a pox deck once and it worked wonders, it's a swiss army knife. Discard, removal, buff and evasion in one package. If I'm running it (in the side or maybe main) I would run one or two Urborgs, helps the swampwalk ability on the Charm, especially on a Death's Shadow.
Hippie is indeed good, only downside is, it needs a full turn before it comes active. Bottemless Pit on the other hand activates on their upkeep and is harder to remove (but you will endure it as well and since this isn't a deck where you go hellbent...)
Thanks for the tips! Btw, the 27th is a biweekly FNM Legacy evening, very casual, with still a lot of competitive decks, so an ideal area to test it.