[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Nelis

So basically you're saying (please, correct me if I'm wrong) that you weaken your mana base so you can play Engineered Explosives and Krosan Grip just because of Enqineered Plague? Which means that you are much more vulnerable to Wastelands and to lesser extent Stifles, which you will encounter more often than sideboarded Engineered Plagues?

The only other reason you play green is Tin Street Hooligan I suppose? Goblin Tinkerer does exactly the same thing. And you can cast a Tinkerer with a Goblin Warchief in play which you cannot do with Tin Street Hooligan.

You do not really need Krosan Grip against Counterbalance in my opinion. Before CounterTop is online you already have played your key 1cc/ 2cc spells. And they have a hard time countering your 3cc+ spells after that.

And if you run EE and Grip in your SB what do you do against combo decks?

With black in your sideboard you can still preemptively get rid of Engineered Plague/Counterbalance by means of Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, whichever of those you like to play, and at the same time have proper answers to fight combo decks.

Or is the US metagame really that different from the European one?

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The goal is to have the best goblin build in preparation for the GP coming up. If you don't think you will be running into engineered plague, then you will be mistaken. If you are playing black, then plague is probably in your board not only for goblins, but the other tribal decks as well. I've seen many tournaments where both merfolk and elves made top 8's in big events.

In regards to counterbalance, the main goal that it does is shutting off your removal in warren wierding. That is why Counterbalance stays in usually after game 1 against goblins b/c they have to protect their win conditions. I don't board in grip against threshold, just relic and explosives since they can hit mongoose or goyf/counterbalance at 1 or 2.

Everyone suggests you shouldn't play 3 colors b/c of all the stifles and wastelands going around which is just stupid. I would not weaken the deck in order to play around these type of cards. If you play smart, then a lot of the time you can play around these effects. I want to be able to play the best cards possible in goblins and 3 colors gives me that option.

Against combo, I board in the 4 chalice of the void and 3 cabal therapy. Sometimes it isn't enough against storm combo, but at least it gives me a shot with the quick clock I can put them on.

In a local matagame, I can understand why so many people think the mono-red or black/red version may be better, but in the GP you would want versatility with the ability to have as many answers as possible to cards that are hard to deal with.

Perhaps you are a ninja, but if my opponent is on the play and starts with Island go and I have 2 Fetchlands and want to play Aether Vial on my first turn I will have to walk into Stifle. I mean what are you going to do, wait three turns and hope your opponent is going to tap out?

What if you start with 3 non fetch non basic lands in your hand, you mulligan that hand in fear of Wasteland or something?

A lot of the time you won't be able to play around Stifle or Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

Everyone suggests you shouldn't play 3 colors b/c of all the stifles and wastelands going around which is just stupid. I would not weaken the deck in order to play around these type of cards. If you play smart, then a lot of the time you can play around these effects. I want to be able to play the best cards possible in goblins and 3 colors gives me that option.

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First, calling people stupid is plain insulting. Keep the discussion reasonable.
Goblin is an aggressive deck, and needs to tap out during its turn to play his cards. This puts goblins in a bad position with trying to play around stifle: sometimes, if you do it, you're losing tempo. Sometimes, if you don't do it, you'll run into stifle and manascrew.
Sometimes you just won't have the right lands to cast Tin-Street and have it brake an artifact.
Sometimes you just won't have the Black mana to play your removal.
Sometimes Rishadan Port will win you the game.
Sometimes a little fetch damage will lose you the game against Burn, or Price of Progress will ruin your day.
Sometimes Monored removal will be better than black one. Some examples:
- the mirror
- opponent has multiple creatures. Even something like Factory+Dreadnough, means you can't kill dreadnough.
- opponent counters your spell and his goyf became huge due to Tribal+Sorcery in grave.
- Opponent has a counter in hand, but you just Vial/Lackey in Stingscourger to take care of dreadnough/TS.
- The opponent plays mutavaults/changelings/fanatics or other goblins.
- The opponent doesn't play creatures (2/2 is better than nothing)

Being monored or Rg or Rb or Rgb is just a metagame consideration. If you're going to play in a tournament with loads of blue decks, LD decks, decks that abuse the graveyard and the mirror, then monored is a good choice. There's no way to demonstrate that a version is strictly better than the other, however, a testing session should help at individuate which matchups are better for every version.

I love nickrit2000's comments. For me, they're all : "I'm always right. The rest is stupidity".

Rbg is not bad. It gives you TSH, Krogan Grip, and 3cc EE. Nevertheless, in a meta full of Stifle, you should be worried about getting hit by stifle. It's a powerfull card. What Rb and MonoR do, is give up the power of some cards (qe all know Krosan Grip and Warrens Weirdings are powerfull), to have some more stability. And often times, it is worth it.

I don't think there should be a discussion wheter witch version is better. GreenOne summed it up nicely. It's a metagame call. The discussion, in my oppinion, should be wich version of each kind of deck, is the most relyable.

OK, I know I want to play Mono Red. I think counterbalance is terrible against mono red, so I don't care that I can't remove it. I see tarmogoyf, in general, and ANT as threats to this deck, so I'm thinking my "wiggle" slots in the maindeck will be relics of progenitus, which are solid against a lot of decks and cycle otherwise. It's not set in stone.

Here's roughly what I'm thinking:

4 x Lackey
4 x Vial
4 x Piledriver
4 x Warchief
4 x Matron
4 x Ringleader
4 x Gempalm
1 x Tinkerer
2 x Stingscourger
3 x SGC
1 x Goblin King

3 x Relic of Progenitus

14 x Mountain
4 x Waste
4 x Port

SB:
4 x Chalice
3 x Pyrostatic Pillar
4 x Pyrokinesis
3 x REB
1 x Goblin


I'm really not sure what to expect in Chicago, but I figure mono red + MD king gives me the edge in the mirror, which I expect will be more popular than it has been of late (availability, nostalgia, etc.). I'm not sure about cutting fanatics. That may be a mistake. Otherwise, I feel like things are solid. The board reflects my concerns about combo.

Comments, questions, suggestions? I really don't know what people consider optimal in terms of Mono Red builds.

If you want to have an edge in the mirror, play Shapshooter main, wich is good agains´t a bunch of decks (though you are not playng Fanatics, that are grat agains´t randomness....)

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Originally Posted by GUnit

OK, I know I want to play Mono Red. I think counterbalance is terrible against mono red, so I don't care that I can't remove it. I see tarmogoyf, in general, and ANT as threats to this deck, so I'm thinking my "wiggle" slots in the maindeck will be relics of progenitus, which are solid against a lot of decks and cycle otherwise. It's not set in stone.

Here's roughly what I'm thinking:

4 x Lackey
4 x Vial
4 x Piledriver
4 x Warchief
4 x Matron
4 x Ringleader
4 x Gempalm
1 x Tinkerer
2 x Stingscourger
3 x SGC
1 x Goblin King

3 x Relic of Progenitus

14 x Mountain
4 x Waste
4 x Port

SB:
4 x Chalice
3 x Pyrostatic Pillar
4 x Pyrokinesis
3 x REB
1 x Goblin


I'm really not sure what to expect in Chicago, but I figure mono red + MD king gives me the edge in the mirror, which I expect will be more popular than it has been of late (availability, nostalgia, etc.). I'm not sure about cutting fanatics. That may be a mistake. Otherwise, I feel like things are solid. The board reflects my concerns about combo.

Comments, questions, suggestions? I really don't know what people consider optimal in terms of Mono Red shells.

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I'd cut the king (it sucks against everything non-red, and in the mirrir is not that great) and 1-2 Incinerators for 2-3 Fanatics and 0-1 Lands. This should help increasing the power of the remaining 2-3 Incinerators.

I've never really seen the point of Pyrokinesis. What does it do for you? Wouldn't Lightning Bolt be better?

Reharu: No
Knesis helps a lot more in the mirror. (takes down usually 2 to 3 criatures)
Can help you win agains´t 12 EtW tokens (done that)
Great agains´t the Elf combo deck
and several other stuff...

mainly is better because you don´t need to keep your mana open, so is always an surprise.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

The goal is to have the best goblin build in preparation for the GP coming up. If you don't think you will be running into engineered plague, then you will be mistaken. If you are playing black, then plague is probably in your board not only for goblins, but the other tribal decks as well. I've seen many tournaments where both merfolk and elves made top 8's in big events.

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I'm not saying you will not run into Engineered Plague but I just can't imagine you will see it that often. This is why I would not be bothered as much with it:

1. I would expect a GP to feature a whole range of different decks, be more random. The chance you run into a deck with Engineered Plagues is less likely than in a set metagame which features a lot of black decks for instance.

2. One Engineered plague is not that bad since it only shuts down lackeys and fanatics. Sure it's annoying that you lose them especially lackey. But lackey will have done its job before Plague hits. All other goblins survive -1/-1. I also don't see Plague do much against Merfolk because it runs 8 pump creatures and it also has counter backup. So in my opinion plague is only really efficient versus elves because they're mostly only 1/1s. Sure two Plagues are devastating but how likely is it that this will happen?

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

In a local metagame, I can understand why so many people think the mono-red or black/red version may be better, but in the GP you would want versatility with the ability to have as many answers as possible to cards that are hard to deal with.

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I think discard is a very universal and thus a versatile answer to basically every possible threat. Its my choice for (almost) every tournament anyway but surely for a GP because of its 'randomness'. And if you want to win a big tournament you have to have a very good plan vs combo I think. The only thing I do not like about my sideboard is not having any room for Pyrokinesis.

@Nelis: -3 discard (you choose) , +4 Knesis.
done

I actually have made another choice (to try out anyway):

SB:
-3 Thoughtseize
+3 Pyrokinesis

Maindeck:
-1 Wort, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Gempalm Incinerator
+3 Thoughtseize

That would make:
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands

3 Thoughtseize
4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey

1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader

1 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Relic of Progenitus

would spikeshot goblin work in vial gobins? i mean he allows you to do damage to a creature or player over and over where fanatics only once. The down grade on him he cost three to play.

@ccook92mtg: No.
The card you're looking for is Goblin Sharpshooter.
I guess that even Goblin Medics is better than Spikeshot, and you shouldn't use neither.

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Originally Posted by raharu

I've never really seen the point of Pyrokinesis. What does it do for you? Wouldn't Lightning Bolt be better?

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Pyrokinesis is an incredible tempo boost. Apply it as such.

Uses include the Goblin mirror, wrecking Elf Combo, Faerie Stompy, Affinity, any combo deck that relies on a creature, and random other things.

Looks like Conflux isn't going to bring nothing new for goblins...
Kind of disaponting. All the other threads are commenting on possibilties.
Bummer.

Do you think that Voracious dragon will be a playable option in this deck??

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Do you think that Voracious dragon will be a playable option in this deck??

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It would certainly be awesome to Vial out that sucker in response to a Pyroclasm or Plague. But SG Commander still seems consistently way better.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Do you think that Voracious dragon will be a playable option in this deck??

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Short: no
Long: No, because it invites 1000-for-1's, can't be matroned/ringleadered, costs 5 and predator dragon would IMO be a better choice anyway.

But who knows, it would be a cool card to try out since it looks fun at least and it could work out better than I hope as a finishing move, since if it gets countered it won't have eaten any goblins and if it gets plowed it will have done its damage anyway and probably killed off your opponent, also it has obvious synergy with goblin sharpshooter so it could potentially churn out a crapload of damage from nowhere. I'm gonna get a couple and playtest them just for fun since they probably won't be expensive anyway, don't expect them to be really viable but who cares! The idea of a fat dragon eating my goblins is pretty cool.

Hey guys, I'm not a goblin player, but I've seen lists of the blue-splahsed goblin decks with daze and brainstorm etc. Has this deck evolved anything and/or been discussed in this thread, or is it more lucky shots of various persons, playing a suboptimal deck?

Sorry, messy question. In conclusion: Is there a current decklist of UR Goblin-control that is somewhat up to date and agreed upon? I'd love to see it.