All B/R update speculation.

The sad part of Show and Tell is that, much like Survival of the Fittest, it isn't Show and Tell that is the problem. It's Griselbrand, to a lesser extent Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and to a much lesser extent Omniscience. And, who knows what other 10+ CMC bombs they are going to print so that kids can open packs and feel good about blowing 3.95.

I think Show and Tell will go eventually, but I wish they would get rid of Griselbrand. It's banned in EDH.

It is too good a protecting itself. Drawing 7-14 cards one-sided is out of hand.

I think a 1cc Wrath of God is more out of hand against aggro, and we all know WotC <3 aggro and any card that blows aggro out of the water is ban-worthy right?

SCG LA top 16:

12 Terminus
9 Snapcaster Mage
16 Delver of Secrets
4 Show and Tell
0 Griselbrand

I don't think anything deserves to be banned right now in Legacy. Show and Tell is a card that at a glance seems overpowered - and in many instances it can be. However, the format has come to adapt and deal with it which is why you're seeing decks running the card only performing at a very natural pace. There is no cramming in the biggest Top Eights with Show and Tell dominating.

However, with that being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see something unbanned again. I understand some people might have a train of thought that reflects an opinion like, "Wizards threw us a bone; that will be it for a long time," but we should also entertain the possibility that perhaps Wizards might just be gradually filtering out the Legacy Banned List slowly to let older cards like Land Tax trickle back into the format while gauging their ability to function individually within the confines of the format and not becoming a massive error of judgment that became a failed experiment.

If I were a betting man and had to guess which card would come off that list first, I would probably go with Mind Twist. It's such an investment that it takes several turns to realistically be powerful. It's still only a discard spell at heart, and with the overabundance of conditional counter-magic that has been printed in the last fifteen years I think it's safe to say the card - barring its cost - is really no better than a Hymn to Tourach in a deck that can support it. Mind Twist wouldn't be a card you'd splash for often, because there are far better options you can pick from black as a supporting color.

Which brings me to my next point: black as a color. It's arguably one of the worst colors that can flat-out support itself without a splash, so something like an unbanning of this card might revitalize interest in a return to "old school" black decks getting a nice toy back to work with. With blue being as powerful as it is and the other colors fixated on doing their own thing without having to worry about something like Hymn anyway, I don't see the merits of a card like Mind Twist wrecking a format predicated on the first few turns anyhow.

I could be wrong, but that's just how I see it.

Damn, look at recent SCG result. Griselbrand is everywhere. Ban him please. He is clearly too overpowered. There is no way we can adapt.

I want to quote myself for those without reading comprehension:

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

even though none of the Show and Tell decks are overly broken and dominant in the format the card itself became overly dominant as the go-to combo card with around 7-8 established decks around it.

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Show and Tell isn't a problem because its decks are dominating the meta. It's a problem because it is restricting the design space in the combo pillar. It is the dominant combo card because currently if you want to play combo only viable decks are a selection of Show and Tell decks. If you don't want to play Show and Tell you don't play combo. Or you play combo just because you are a Johnny and enjoy playing your pet deck.

I don't agree. It's harder for combo players in general these days, but Show&Tell does not at all invalidate other combo decks like Belcher, TES, Elves, Forgemaster, Dredge, Reanimator,... These decks suffer from the format running a ton of counterspells, discard or hatebears plus fast win-conditions, but are still viable decks and T8 contenders given the right pilot. Don't let some SCG group-think syndrome confuse you! :tongue:

Edit:
I think Show&Tell decks see also some short term hypes (Hive Mind during MM, Sneak Attack when Griselrand came out and now Omniscience), because the deck is relatively easy to pilot and an unexperienced player can put up some decent tournament results if he has a good draw. That's not bad at all - I myself love to play with new toys - but it's no danger because the price for the "easy combo-win" is that you cannot put up good results consistantly or that you are hatet out easier (format adapts) than let's say a really good doomsday or TES pilot.

If anything, SnT being the best combo decks mean that:

- Elves is suddendly a viable deck and
- we can streamline the hate toward SnT instead of having to fight the stack like with storm (Red blasts etc...)

I see both things as good.

OK let me try it this way. S&T doesn't reduce the strength of storm obviously. Storm is storm. What it does is, having counterspells and a better defense than storm while also being an equally fast combo deck. So if you want to play storm combo your usual enemies are present as always there's no change. Counters, discard, hatebears whatever, it's always a challange to play combo. But there's also a bigger predator in the meta battling for the combo slot. This bigger predator can combo as fast as you can AND FoW your combo at the same time. So why would I play Storm again? High Tide? Reanimator?

Edit: Also there's no streamlining hate towards S&T because the different variants (Academy Rector, Sneak Attack, Straight-up Omniscience, Hive Mind, Dream Halls, Hypergenesis...) all fold to different things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

OK let me try it this way. S&T doesn't reduce the strength of storm obviously. Storm is storm. What it does is, having counterspells and a better defense than storm while also being an equally fast combo deck. So if you want to play storm combo your usual enemies are present as always there's no change. Counters, discard, hatebears whatever, it's always a challange to play combo. But there's also a bigger predator in the meta battling for the combo slot. This bigger predator can combo as fast as you can AND FoW your combo at the same time. So why would I play Storm again? High Tide? Reanimator?

Edit: Also there's no streamlining hate towards S&T because the different variants (Academy Rector, Sneak Attack, Straight-up Omniscience, Hive Mind, Dream Halls, Hypergenesis...) all fold to different things.

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SnT is blue and a sorcery -> ReB and therapy.

Frankly, i don't like SnT as a card, either, but if it doesn't put out numbers, you can't justify a ban. Especially when the best deck in the format seems miracle control now.

No Bilbo S&T does not have a good combo matchup.

Storm is a bit faster & can also play protection. I would say the matchup is fairly even. That S&T players prepare for UW/RUG/Maverick playing Overmaster, defense grid, Karakas or burning with for mass removal favours Storm.

Reanimator is a horrorible matchup for S&T.

Dredge is a mediocre to bad matchup for S&T, because they can go off faster and just cabal them out.

High Tide is also fairly even. It's worth noting here that High Tide also has a ton of countermagic.

You defintely don't play Show&Tell to beat other combo decks!

Concerning the different variants of S&T decks.
- Hive mind is not a deck and won't become one - worse than Omniscience by far
- Academy rector is cute, but won't become a real popular deck.
- Sneak Attack & Omniscience are currently competing and Omniscience will be the more popular and established deck you should prepare for.

That some people will get you at a tournament with S&T+Rector or S&T+Hypergenesis is what we love about the format right? But it is as exotic as someone beating you with Aluren, Cephalid Breakfast, Painted Stone,... There is no "Show&Tell combo shell" like there was a Stoneblade Shell during the Mental Misstep area.

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Originally Posted by catmint

High Tide is also fairly even. It's worth noting here that High Tide also has a ton of countermagic.

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You definitely didn't play the match-up. I had some comments about it in the Spiral Tide thread we can take the discussion there if you feel like. But just for the basic math, High Tide plays 7 counters maindeck, OmniTell plays 8. High Tide goes off relaibly on turn 4 (on turn 3 in the best case), OmniTell goes off between turn 1-3. High Tide can start tutoring for counters on turn 2 and OmnTiell can go off with counter backup on turn 2.

High Tide is blue, plays some number of counters therefore should have a good combo matchup is a misguided perspective. The actual mechanics of the matchup is more complicated and favors the S&T deck.

Edit: This still doesn't address the problem of diversity introduced by S&T. High Tide, ANT and Dredge are completely different decks revolving around different mechanics and cards. S&T decks are an answer to the question of "What is the best thing to cheat into play with this specifc blue sorcery?". Is there a strong enough reason to brew with the new Epic Experiment while all you need to do is wait for the next busted big card Wizrds will print and then create a S&T shell around it?

So the point that S&T decks oppress other combo decks is wrong right? (Even though I probably did not judge the high tide matchup completely correct, which I indeed did not play too much) Besides: Omnitell is not going off bewteen turns 1-3; Turn 1 is very very rare. Turn 2 is seldom, 3 is consistent but 4+ also happens regularly in a goldfish).

The problem you are describing now is that S&T is just waiting for some busted non-sense to put into play and is not build around a specific mechanic like storm or dredge. I don't understand that argument. There are different types of combodecks. Some have "engines" like storm or dredge enabled by sick synergies, some need permanents in play to activate abilities and some like S&T, hypergenesis or hulk/flash need to resolve only 1 spell with the condition of having other cards in your hand/library. And yes: Storm gets better with ad nauseam or past in flames printed and S&T gets better with omniscience or Griselbrand printed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

So the point that S&T decks oppress other combo decks is wrong right?

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Compared to all the other combo alternatives including the combo-mirrors, S&T deck is the clear winner imo and that's why it makes other combo just Johnny decks. From the examples you've given only Dredge and Reanimator have positive S&T matchups. However both of those two decks are much more vulnerable to hate from the rest of the field so again S&T becomes a clear winner when all the stats are compared. I analyze a combo deck with these stats: 1)Speed (the reliable pivotal turn), 2)Resiliance against hate, 3)Overall success against tier decks, 4)Overall success against a random field, 5)Success against other combo. Decks like Belcher, Dredge and Reanimator can be top dogs in terms of 1 and 5 due to sheer speed and power but they just don't score enough points in the other 3 areas to come out on top in the end. Decks like storm and high tide have the best overall scores but my point is that S&T now has similar (or even better) scores while also beating them.

I only use 2 criteria: 1) Redundancy, everything else falls into 2) resilience. Speed is a given, otherwise aggro will be the one goldfishing combo by turn 4.

Reason why S&T should be in a better position is because of the printing of 2 white cards that are played in 2 tier 1 decks and Storm combo taking splash damage. Thalia (Thorn of Amethyst with a body + Mom = Maverick) and Terminus (CB + Top = UW Miracles). Yes, Counterbalance is back! We will have to wait and see what Abrupt Decay can do to the current Big 4 of legacy, this includes RUG and Stoneblade.

Yes this is the argument which makes most sense to me.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Survival, why you no come back?

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Because,

Spell Snare
Krosan Grip
Pridemage
Surgical Extraction
Extirpate
Rest in Peace
Aven Mindcensor
Spell Pierce
Phyrexian Revoker
Pithing Needle
Suppression Field
Nihil Spellbomb
Relic of Progenitus
Planar Void
Tormod's Crypt
Every hardcounter ever printed
Every first turn duress effect ever printed

Clearly can't handle it ... meanwhile: Show and Tell ...

Who is cutting Green Sun's Zenith for SotF? One is slower and doesn't replace itself, can't do anything without another card in hand, doesn't put the man on the battlefield, but can create graveyard mischief. One is faster, grows in utility as your mana base expands, and requires no other cards in hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Who is cutting Green Sun's Zenith for SotF? One is slower and doesn't replace itself, can't do anything without another card in hand, doesn't put the man on the battlefield, but can create graveyard mischief. One is faster, grows in utility as your mana base expands, and requires no other cards in hand.

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Stop trolling. Survival is many ways superior to GSZ. Mainly, in setting up ridiculous G/y strategies.

You've never lived the dream until you go:
turn 1 mana dork
Turn 2 LED, Survival, activate SotF discarding Vengevine & Rootwalla, pop LED in resp, VV, VV, VV, Kobolds - attack for 16 turn 2.

BIZNATCCCHHH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

Stop trolling. Survival is many ways superior to GSZ. Mainly, in setting up ridiculous G/y strategies.

You've never lived the dream until you go:
turn 1 mana dork
Turn 2 LED, Survival, activate SotF discarding Vengevine & Rootwalla, pop LED in resp, VV, VV, VV, Kobolds - attack for 16 turn 2.

BIZNATCCCHHH

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The worst thing is how easy this is to set up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

The worst thing is how easy this is to set up

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Mmmhmm. Probably why it got banned in the first place.

Worst case scenario, you can always discard Griselbrand to SotF to find that Loyal Retainer and win from there. Or chain Phyrexian Devourer>Triskelion>Necrotic Ooze.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

You've never lived the dream until you go:
turn 1 mana dork
Turn 2 LED, Survival, activate SotF discarding Vengevine & Rootwalla, pop LED in resp, VV, VV, VV, Kobolds - attack for 16 turn 2.

BIZNATCCCHHH

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Aww...Survival, why do you hurt so good?

On a real note, I'm pretty sure I've only seen that play once ever. I usually died the next turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bignasty197

Aww...Survival, why do you hurt so good?

On a real note, I'm pretty sure I've only seen that play once ever. I usually died the next turn.

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Oh darn you can slow down one turn. Attacking for 16 on turn 4 is broken, end of story. And good luck trying to interact with it, as once survival resolves the game is over. Oh so you have surgical boarded in? Great, I'll hardcast a 4/3 haste and beat you down with it and whenever I draw an irrelevant creature I'll get another 4/3 haste and beat you down with that one too. The argument against survival isn't that it's a busted combo enabler. It's because survival as a deck can switch roles VERY easily, making it ridiculously hard to hate out. Extirpate VV's? Okay I'll hardcast a bunch of KotR's and beat you with that instead.

High tide doesn't come close to beating show and tell. Show and tell combo's on turn's 2-3. High tide is turn 4 and beyond, turn 3 with a really good hand that you're not likely to draw in 2 out of 3 games. As for storm combo against SnT storm combo can win. However SnT can also just win out of nowhere with a turn 2 griselbrand on the play as storm combo cannot beat a turn 2 griselbrand typically. Both decks have fundamental turn 3's. If SnT wins the die roll I would definitely say it's favored though. The difference between the two decks is that storm isn't a one card combo while SnT is a 1 card combo typically as when does an SnT player not have one of 8 targets in their hand on turn 2? Also, ad nauseam and past in flames cost more than 5+ mana while SnT costs 3 mana so going island, EoT brainstorm, sol land, SnT griselbrand isn't out of the question.

Please don't argue that we should ban griselbrand in legacy because it's banned in EDH. That has to be the worst comparison ever, as EDH is a timmy oriented format where people like to goldfish all day long and where cards like primeval titan and panoptic mirror are banned. You know what isn't banned in EDH? Yawgmoth's will. So I guess we should legalize that in legacy right? Same with necropotence right?

The B&R list update is at midnight correct?

Midnight eastern.

I'm hoping no changes, I want to see what R2R has to offer. If they ban something silly like Terminus, I might have to cry a little inside.

-Matt

So land tax did a whole lot of nothing as expected. Do we want earthcraft black vise or mind twist next?

I could see Mind Twist being played in BUG control. Drop a Deed, they don't want to over extend. If they don't overextend, you Mind Twist them. Maybe Black Vise in Turbofog.

In all honesty, I hope they ban either Show and Tell or Emrakul so I don't have to use up 7 SB slots in Painter anymore. Or maindeck a Tormod's Crypt.

EDIT: And fuck Delver, too.

Nothing changed.

So, what's the (Gerrard's) verdict? Who was betting on this? More Burning Wish seems interesting in Vintage. In all honesty, I forgot it was restricted.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Blitzbold

Nothing changed.

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Not completely. There was a change relevant to legacy:

Quote:

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Going forward, Banned and Restricted updates will by synchronized with set releases. For each set, starting with Gatecrash, the announcement will be the Monday after the Prerelease, and the effective date will be the same as the release date of the set.

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Prepare yourselves for when everyone asks when the next B&R update is.


Also, not insignificant changes to the tournament rules:

Quote:

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[For Competitive+ REL only] You now need to announce *all* your triggers.

In the past, there was a subclass of triggers (“No Visual Effect”) that did not require announcing because they didn’t have an impact on the visual state of the board or require choices. Think Goldnight Commander or Kruin Striker. However, with the simplifying of the trigger rules, those now have to be announced.

Simplified Trigger Rules: You cannot “forget” your triggers. Your opponent is not required to remind you. If your opponent misses a trigger and you want it to happen, call a judge (and you’ll get to make happen if it’s still within a turn). If you miss your trigger unintentionally and the opponent doesn’t want it to happen, it won’t happen.
You must be present and playing at a tournament to receive Planeswalker Points. No having a friend register you just to get the points!
Video replay will not be used in making rulings. It may be used for investigations later.

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Valakut got unbanned in Modern. I wouldn't give a shit about that format, except it seems to affect prices more than it should given the fact that it has very little support at the LGS level. Since I may want to build Scapeshift Nic Fit at some point, I went ahead and grabbed a playset.

It probably won't shoot up too much since it's from such a recent set, but I never underestimate "full retard" when it comes to Modern.

See my signature.

Odd how Burning Wish just saw that price spike.

Where did it spike? SCG?

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Where did it spike? SCG?

-Matt

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Didn't it go from 5 to 15 in the past few weeks? It could be from Omni-Trll or someone with prior knowledge making a run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rxavage

Odd how Burning Wish just saw that price spike.

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It's been sitting at $15-20 according to the Market Street Cafe at Salvation for the last week. Has it jumped further?

A bit disappointed, really, was hoping for earthcraft to come back. Would be nice to play a legacy event at a local store with squirrel-combo, if for no other reason than because it's cute.
Also wouldn't have been sad to see show and tell go, in all honesty, but I'm not too disappointed to have it stay either.

The new B&R announcement policy

"Going forward, Banned and Restricted updates will by synchronized with set releases. For each set, starting with Gatecrash, the announcement will be the Monday after the Prerelease, and the effective date will be the same as the release date of the set."

I was hoping they were still on the unban a card that will see no play in legacy train, it at least made things very interesting as people scrambled to "break" land tax after years of saying the card was not any good. There are still a few cards on the list that will make little to no impact on legacy. At the least, survival, earthcraft, mind twist and minds desire would do very litte(except make survival a deck again) with all of the hate that now exists(RiP kills any survival hijinks cold)