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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
yes, sorry, 2 thoughtness. the point is that DnT will always have an uncounterable, Instant speed, creature with at least 2 thuoghtness (and at that point, at least 2 strenght, thanks to Sulfur Elemental) that will kill our Elemental as soon as it attack or block. Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, Brimaz..
overall, again, we do have a problem with untargetable creatures (TNN, Mongoose, Geist). Diabolic Edict and Massacre kills just all of them. I want to give this list a try.
Anyway, up to now, the only loss I feel relevant is REB, not Sulfur Elemental. for combo I play 2 Enlightned Tutor, 2 Ethersworn Canonist and 4 Counterbalance. it's usually enough
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Please guys, I thought we were over this? Black is no option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
Come on guys. I can get it if you want to play straight U/W, i can accept that. It's not good but splashing the wrong color is definetely worse. Black is not a viable splash option for miracle.
Stuff like the above drives me crazy. Black is a valid option, as it's usefulness has been pointed out many times. Now, you may prefer a particular splash for a particular meta and you may even disagree with how useful a particular splash may be. That said, going as far to think that black is not an option at all is close-mindedness, pure and simple. These are the types of comments that we need to avoid on the forums to have meaningful discussions. Splashing a particular color gives you options, and I think it's pretty clear that black gives some meaningful options worth considering. I don't understand why several people are discouraging people from testing out different cards, when I doubt most of the people doing the discouraging have actually tried the cards themselves. (I'm not claiming that such people haven't, but I have noticed that when discussing the black splash most people talking it down aren't indicating any type of experience actually using the cards.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Claiming that Sulfur Elemental cannot attack shows that you have yet to play a game with it.
And how many times have you played with a black splash instead of a red splash recently?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
And how many times have you played with a black splash instead of a red splash recently?
I havn't touched the Blacksplash since ages, it might have actually been prior to GP Ghent... And for good reasons!
Look, Black is a very good color. It offers flexible answers to almost everything and is well suited to help you out in different scenarios. But in my experience Black rewards a more proactive gameplan, just like Esperstoneblade. Thoughtseize, followed by Snapcaster Mage Thoughtseize is at best followed by a threat that can end the game quickly, not by a Counterbalance... I do agree that Black has valuable cards, but there is no Point in the game where UW and R wouldn't suffice. This should not keep anybody from testing. If they tested it alot and have success with it- I'd give it a try - and so would others. But just throwing around with ideas and lists isn't gonna help anybody.
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
(overall, black has Perish too. In case Maverick and Elves should raise too much.. but Maverick plays Plains so.. --> Massacre)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
(overall, black has Perish too. In case Maverick and Elves should raise too much.. but Maverick plays Plains so.. --> Massacre)
Terminus ... we play Terminus. You sound like someone that needs to practice their midrange/creature-matchups a bit more instead of running to Perish in a list with Terminus and Supreme Verdict.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Wait, sorry are we still talking about this? There is an argument for a Red splash as having access to Pyroclasm gives us unconditional cheap sweepers where it matters is useful, and REB is a house when 70% of the best decks are Blue. (That's just a random number.) I personally want to stick with UW. B2B does a similar job to Blood Moon, mainly in that it costs 3 and can be Tutored for, but it pitches to FoW which is fucking incredibly good for a card that does nothing against some decks. Pyro got replaced with Ghostly Prison (or the Blue version that I was recently told of) and the loss of REB isn't huge, as I play 2 Pierce and 2 Flusterstorms anyway. No, they don't kill a Jace or a Delver, but I just don't care. I need a second D-Sphere somewhere and my deck is done. (Damn you 76 card lists!)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I really can't see why guys compare Pyroclasm with Massacre.
it costs 2 and doesn't kill MoR and TNN.. just uncomparable.. I just want to find more room for Surgical Extraction
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
(overall, black has Perish too. In case Maverick and Elves should raise too much.. but Maverick plays Plains so.. --> Massacre)
If terminus, moat, verdict and EE arent enough sweepers for you need more help than splashing black for perish can offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Stuff like the above drives me crazy. Black is a valid option, as it's usefulness has been pointed out many times. Now, you may prefer a particular splash for a particular meta and you may even disagree with how useful a particular splash may be. That said, going as far to think that black is not an option at all is close-mindedness, pure and simple. These are the types of comments that we need to avoid on the forums to have meaningful discussions. Splashing a particular color gives you options, and I think it's pretty clear that black gives some meaningful options worth considering. I don't understand why several people are discouraging people from testing out different cards, when I doubt most of the people doing the discouraging have actually tried the cards themselves. (I'm not claiming that such people haven't, but I have noticed that when discussing the black splash most people talking it down aren't indicating any type of experience actually using the cards.)
And how many times have you played with a black splash instead of a red splash recently?
The problem is, it sounds like a lot of people advocating the splash for black are just trying to be different for the sake of being different. Like, perish? disfigure? Why don't we play Sign in Blood over a brainstorm while we're at it. It still a cantrip right? Also it combos notion thief to shock an opponent LOLOLOLOLOL
The solid arguement I see for the black splash over the red splash comes down to 2 cards. Thoughtseize and REB. Anything else you add in, like tidehallow sculler over meddling mage, or dread of night over sulfer elemental are extremely minor upgrades and arguably not even downgrades. Massacre is actually ok. Im not sure the deck needs it, but it is a good card. Against D&T id still rather have an instant sweeper (terminus/EE) and against UWR tempo Id still rather have an uncountable sweeper and against everything else that doesnt run white (most of the meta) Id still rather have terminus, ee, moat or verdict. And I am not convinced that we need 8+ sweepers in those white matchups to necessitate massacre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
...I just want to find more room for Surgical Extraction
You know you don't need swamps to cast that card. I also hope you aren't considering cutting any RIP cause you are running surgical or your going to have a bad time when you run into dredge or Burning wish/chalice loam.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
I really can't see why guys compare Pyroclasm with Massacre.
it costs 2 and doesn't kill MoR and TNN.. just uncomparable.. I just want to find more room for Surgical Extraction
It doesn't kill MoR, but it kills everything else in the deck. The only thing you're concerned with is if they make double MoR on the play and you don't have Pyro until they untap with it, at which point your Terminus will just go to town. I was also not comparing Pyro to Massacre, I was comparing Red to Black.
Also Surgical is better than RiP against Dredge sometimes because RiP costs 2. Which is a very late card sometimes. I personally play a 1-of Cage in addition to my RiPs.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Are we really discussing a splash to deal with one of the most mana-disruptive decks in the format? DnT is also both favored allready and not commonly seen in the post-TNN metagame. Which cards/strategies do we need help against that makes a splash worth it? Stability and basics are very important so it better be something unique we can't deal with beeing only UW.
In red we get REB. A unique answer for the three most powerful strategies in legacy right now (Jace, tnn and show and tell). Plus it hits brainstorm and trades evenly with pretty much everything in legacy, both in play and on the stack.
black offers nothing unique like this, At a certain point thoughtseize becomes better than an additional counterspell but if we have to chose I rather have REB. Discussing black for removal is not really ideal either because as Usel said we allready have swords, verdict and terminus.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
If terminus, moat, verdict and EE arent enough sweepers for you need more help than splashing black for perish can offer.
The problem is, it sounds like a lot of people advocating the splash for black are just trying to be different for the sake of being different. Like, perish? disfigure? Why don't we play Sign in Blood over a brainstorm while we're at it. It still a cantrip right? Also it combos notion thief to shock an opponent LOLOLOLOLOL
The solid arguement I see for the black splash over the red splash comes down to 2 cards. Thoughtseize and REB. Anything else you add in, like tidehallow sculler over meddling mage, or dread of night over sulfer elemental are extremely minor upgrades and arguably not even downgrades. Massacre is actually ok. Im not sure the deck needs it, but it is a good card. Against D&T id still rather have an instant sweeper (terminus/EE) and against UWR tempo Id still rather have an uncountable sweeper and against everything else that doesnt run white (most of the meta) Id still rather have terminus, ee, moat or verdict. And I am not convinced that we need 8+ sweepers in those white matchups to necessitate massacre.
Yup, Disfigure was a bad call but Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood, definitly aren't.
I like them and they kill Geist, Progenitus and TNN. Not to mention Nimble Moongose, but alongside with Tarmogoyf, they are dealt with RiP.
black gives us Thoughtseize, Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood, Massacre
red gives us REB
this is the real deal: more creature hate (black) or more combo/control hate? (red)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
You know you don't need swamps to cast that card. I also hope you aren't considering cutting any RIP cause you are running surgical or your going to have a bad time when you run into dredge or Burning wish/chalice loam.
those cards are needed in totally different matchups
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Printing your statement in bold letters isn't gonna help. I am sorry.
"this is the real deal: more creature hate (black) or more combo/control hate?"
Take one guess on your own which decks pose the bigger threat to a deck packing 7-9 removal mainboard, with 3-5 mass-removal, plus Snapcaster Mages.
As said by useL, if you have problems with creatures you might want to build your deck from a scratch again...
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
yes, without black I have problems with TNN and/or Geist. And they're spawning all around me. I have much less problem with combo thanks to 4 Counterbalance, 2 Canonist, 2 Tutors.
I can't help it. Overall black helps me with SneakShow thanks to Thoughtseize...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
http://i60.tinypic.com/20aovn4.jpg
Max those and add Supreme Verdicts, or some EE!
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
4cc or triple colored 3cc. Am I only one here dealing with Stifle + Wasteland every day?
Verdicts is out of question in many matches.
I can just max Terminus. That's all the help I can get here
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello,
Quote:
Am I only one here dealing with Stifle + Wasteland every day?
No you are not. But then I would lower the count of duals and increase the count of Basic Lands.
But if you do this each splash becomes worse. I allready explained why a few pages back.
so if you have problmes mwith mana denial your land base is to greedy and you have to develope a more
consistent one accodring to your needs.
That said I think Verdict and Terminus are the best bet you have. I mean most of the time the Terminus costs
only one W and is at instant speed and verdict should not be a problem either because you allways assemble a
manabase of 2 Island and one Plain before you go even for your splash color. With top and Brainstorm there is a
high psossibility to find the remaining Plain intime, given you play engough Lands.
Finaly fetching on your first turn, if on the play, is a good Idea against stifle. But after the first wait until you have to fetch or
until you have 2 or more fetchlands then he often will not have engough stifles to deal with all lands and since you fetch for basics
wasteland is no concern.
Best Regards Teveshszat
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've had no issues with TNN. All the TNN decks feel like christmas - they just have a really slow mongoose that can be blasted. If you're really falling behind in those matchups, try boarding Porphyry Nodes. It doesn't get pierced and will eat TNN. You don't even need to splash for narrow cards - its good against most aggro and tempo already!
Here's where I'm at for SCG Nashville right now (BoG legal):
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wear // Tear
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Ensnaring Bridge
My counterbalance curve is a bit light at 2 for my liking, but it gets better vs combo since most of the cards that come in are 2s. I'm at a point where I like most of my matches - just hoping to dodge Jund with this list.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
may any of you, please, explain me how do you deal with a resolved Mother of Run + Gaddok Teeg?
because that's a 4x card and a 4x card (GSZ)
Terminus is out of question, as well as: Swords to Plowshares, Supreme Verdict, Jace, Entreat the Angels, Engeneered Explosives.
what do you do with a Gaddok Teeg down if you can't play StP? (because of a Meddling Mage or because of a Surgical Extraction.. or whatever)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
may any of you, please, explain me how do you deal with a resolved Mother of Run + Gaddok Teeg?
Sulfur Elemental.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
may any of you, please, explain me how do you deal with a resolved Mother of Run + Gaddok Teeg?
because that's a 4x card and a 4x card (GSZ)
Terminus is out of question, as well as: Swords to Plowshares, Supreme Verdict, Jace, Entreat the Angels, Engeneered Explosives.
what do you do with a Gaddok Teeg down if you can't play StP? (because of a Meddling Mage or because of a Surgical Extraction.. or whatever)
Porphyry Nodes
But don't get yourself into that situation? GSZ >= 2 should never resolve, mom should be plowed on sight...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
yes, your list has Phorphyry Nodes, which is a very good card if you have more than 12-13 life. Else, it's too slow..
and again, there are decks which plays (at least) 8 mana dorks (4 Deathrite Shaman, 4 GSZ for Dryad Arbor) they can GSZ for 3 on their turn 2. Better have a Pierce or pry they don't run Teeg
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I understand your choices, but I feel you're tilting toward a direction unnecessarily, since SCG is a large field. First of all, 4 StP is just too much. We are not facing as many DC and Goyf as before. I understand you want to MD enchant/Artifact removal, but that's why EE's such swiss army knife. You can get rid of Jitte and Sword with just MD EE. I would -1 StP and +1 Pierce.
As to Node, it's good I agree, with only one down side: It's not CMC 2. I would suggest Runed Halo, CMC 2 for CB, takes care of TNN and important part of Liliana, happens to help against P-Fire. I haven't test long enough with Halo yet, but it's pretty promising so far.
I still believe Venser has a place in the SB, especially against slower Jace deck like Esper Blade. I've considered Bridge in the SB as well, interesting.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello,
for mother and teeg resolved you play a sword wait for the mother activation and in response to it play a sword. Yes thats not the best
play cause it costs us 2 cards but it will solve this situation.
But I think the better Idea is to play sword oin the mother as soon as it hits the table or even play a Terminus for her to enshure she will
be dead before summoning sickness wears of.
If Teeg hits the table before her just play sowrd on him.
Not to emntion we play counters and cb lock to prevent this situation from happen. But yes in this siuration you have to trick the mother effect
out and then play something which deals with her or the target.
Sulfur Elemental is not such a good thing because all creatures that survie get 1 turn faster which is not desirable.
Best Regards Teveshszat
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Karakas also does the trick against Teeg + mother - well kind of.
I've been wanting to try out Poryphyry Nodes for some time. It seems like a good stalling card for the early game. It should buy some time to develop our manabase and has the upside of dealing with untargetable stuff. I'm sucker for potential n for 1s (n>1 ;)). Only perhaps it is a bit too slow in its effect... Does anyone have some experience to share regarding this card? It does not see much play.
Edit: I haven't thought of Runed Halo. It's a really cool card. Will try.
//Bobruisk
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've played with porphyry nodes, and have been always been very happy with it. With that in mind, you do have to keep in mind the very clear trade-off with it between early and late game however. In early game it buys you time against aggressive decks to develop your game. If they play a creature, then you follow up with nodes they can't play another creature unless they want to get 2-for-1'd, thus meaning you have your next turn free to do whatever without worrying about creatures. This, in my experience, has been very crucial in winning such matchups because time in the early game is really important. Additionally, nodes is unconditional removal in the sense that if there is a (non-indestructible creature) it will die to nodes. Having this type of removal is very powerful. As a bonus, you can put it into play from a Show and Tell which can often just win you the game if your opponent didn't put a Griselbrand into play.
That said, when you're stabilizing the board state later in the game, this is where the disadvantage of nodes becomes relevant and more noticeable. If they lay down a creature and you're at low life, letting a creature get through can be very bad for you, especially if they have equipment out.
So, when you consider nodes just consider these benefits and drawbacks. I really like nodes for the early game tempo it gives you, since in general I like my board cards to be pretty lean and efficient against what I bring them in against. Nodes is my go-to creature removal to supplement swords, terminus/verdict for when I feel like I need more creature removal. I also like the random show and tell splash-hate too.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Right, Nodes is great for buying time against delver and DnT, which is all we need to do - we *will* win the long game if we get a chance (especially with the 3 entreats I have now). The splash hate against SnT is real too.
Runed Halo doesn't really deal with Liliana very well - she still ticks up until they find a Decay and then you're going to get -6ed anyways. I don't want that narrow of a card against TNN and I don't like it in other matchups. If I wanted to hedge against Liliana I'd still have my singleton Leyline of Sanctity in the board as a non-deacayble tutor target. Note this also shuts off punishing fire completely and has value against burn and storm.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'll get some hands on experience with the nodes and see what I think.
Regarding Liliana; she is very problematic in my experience. I'm considering a mainboard pithing needle. It seems useful to some extend in a lot of matchups. I like the fact that it counters a specific threat, and all future appearances of it. A longterm many for one in some sense. Looking at the dtb, what does the needle bring:
- Miracles - Pretty bad due to symmetry. An emergency solution against an opposing Jace, only.
- DnT - Gets rishadan port, wasteland, vial, sfm, jitte, mother of runes, etc. Very good here.
- Team America - Deathrite shaman, Liliana, Wasteland. Pretty good.
- Rug delver - Pretty bad. Only wasteland, realistically.
- Nic Fit - Not very good. Deed occationally. Liliana, of course. I'm not very familiar with these decks, but I assume drs appears occationally.
- UWR - Mystic, jitte, wasteland. Not really efficient, but ok?
- Elves - Hmm, I'm not sure what would be best to name here. I guess symbiote is the only really good target...? Not really a good card here.
- Deathblade - Mystic, drs, jitte, Liliana. Maybe.
- Shardless bug - Pretty much the same as Team America.
- Jund - Well here liliana shows up with all three of her sisters. Also Drs.
- Sneak Attack - a very good card here. Shuts down the most dangerous aspects of griselbrand, as we usually have a lot of excess removal g1 in this matchup anyway. Also deals with sneak attack. Makes their only real good play become SnT->Emrakul, which we have ways to deal with.
- Ant - Not really
- Maverick - Mother of runes, Knight (although he is still big and bad), Sfm, Safekeeper. Maybe but not really.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobruisk
I'll get some hands on experience with the nodes and see what I think.
Regarding Liliana; she is very problematic in my experience. I'm considering a mainboard pithing needle. It seems useful to some extend in a lot of matchups. I like the fact that it counters a specific threat, and all future appearances of it. A longterm many for one in some sense. Looking at the dtb, what does the
I dislike MD needle for the following reasons:
1. if you don't run MD Enlightened Tutor, it almost doesn't matter by the time you draw it.
2. it doesn't take care of TNN.
3. it doesn't CB flip for any numbers other than 1, when the deck already has too many CMC 1. This is also the reason I dislike Nodes.
Rather, I'm experimenting with Runed Halo. You can name Liliana to take care important part of her abilities. You can also shut down TNN with it. As matter of fact, you can always find something to name. Name Griselbrand game 1 is not the worst.
I feel like maybe it's time to dust off Thopter Foundry.
1. blocks Germ token all day
2. makes Humility a great option against TNN
3. SB out Foundry-Sword for Helm, because you know WUR Delver and DnT will SB in RiP.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Liliana is beatable w/ Clique/Venser builds much easier IMO than RIP/Helm which I am not sure anyone is still running.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sauce
Liliana is beatable w/ Clique/Venser builds much easier IMO than RIP/Helm which I am not sure anyone is still running.
Definitely. I know I was one of the last RiP holdouts, but the metagame has shifted enough that I don't think it's the right choice anymore.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I still have a single RiP in the main, but I think I'll be cutting my Back to Basics (at least to the board) and the mained RiP (again, to the board) for a second Detention Sphere and a Runed Halo. I really like Runed Halo, it seems to do a lot of work in this deck. The only issue is the WW in its cost.
I'll definitely be considering a Humility-less build before the GP and ensuring I'm still on the right path here, but I expect to be making the above changes, configuring my sideboard for whatever I expect, and then playing that. 11 basics.dek.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I feel like maybe it's time to dust off Thopter Foundry.
1. blocks Germ token all day
2. makes Humility a great option against TNN
3. SB out Foundry-Sword for Helm, because you know WUR Delver and DnT will SB in RiP.
You've spoken of my dream, good sir. I want this more than most things in life.
-Matt
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
There are a lot of MiracleBlade lists with Thopter / Sword in italy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?...ide=&strict=on
For GP Paris, I'm hesitating between a "classic" list with Clique / SCM, and a Thopter MiracleBlade list.
Most of the GY hate does nothing against Thopter / Sword. Deathrite Shaman can't stop it, and you can play around most hate by keeping 1 mana up. Academy Ruins also lets you recur your combo pieces, Batterskull, and E.E. :)
I like how SFM + Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek are 2-drops for CB.
I also like how I was able to race a TNN equipped with Jitte + Batterskull with my thopters while testing on Cockatrice :D
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If I was playing Thopter, I'd go Bant. There was a version I was messing with that had Ancestral Vision and didn't really play a Miracle game at all, it was just UWg control.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
BUG Thopters was also pretty techy for me. You got to play Baleful Strix to restart the engine and to hold out, then you just run infinite Ensnaring Bridge. The only problem is, your removal suite in non-white means you're playing Decay and that's about it.
I just love Thopters so much.
-Matt
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
no.. you're playing black and green so you have access to Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict (out of white, you can play some Disfigure, finally)
with Krosan Grip and Abrupt Decay I start asking again why are we here.. ah Terminus
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I got a question for the Miracle community, let's say opponent's running a list like this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62812 and we play the traditional EtA build, what should our SB choices be?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think esperblade is a tough matchup for us. They tend to not only have a good amount of control elements like us, they have way more threats, and not only that their threats are typically pretty tough for us to deal with. I've actually been struggling with the same question myself, "What to play against blade decks?" I don't have a great answer for that because little is very backbreaking for them. I think there are only three cards which really hurt them - Moat, or it's cheaper counterpart Ensnaring Bridge, and Entreat the angels. The first two prevent them from winning with most of their threats, and Entreat can just go over the top and bash them down quickly. If anybody else has some other suggestions for this matchup, that would help a lot.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I don't think I alter the SB I'm currently taking to Paris. Stoneblade is a fine choice for any tournament, so I'm always prepared for it. Specifically I'll be bringing in Pithing needle, Supreme Verdict, and Disenchant to fight the TNN, and Vendilion Clique to fight the Stoneforge. The deck is fairly slow, so I may end up bringing in Venser and the additional Karakas, either swapping it for a Land, or upping to 25, as hitting land drops here is incredibly important, and the list has Vindicate, which I don't expect to be leaving. I think I like my MU against that list as far as Esper goes. It is tuned against much fairer decks that we are attempting to play, the only real threats being Counterspell, Vindicate, and of course Jace.
Also the Vendilion Cliques could be a problem.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
That list and many lists have I have seen, favors Vindicate over Lingering Souls.
I don't think slow is the term to describe Esper, fair would be my choice. Relatively speaking, Miracle is even slower than Esper.
My guess is:
+2 Pryo/REB, -2 FoW -- TNN on the stack, Jace, Meddling Mage, opposing counter. These are all good blast targets, don't want to waste extra resources by pitching.
+2 Wear//Tear or Disenchant, -1 StP -1 Pierce -- Not sure about this one. In this MU, StP targets are SFM, germ token, MM, and Snapcaster, it's really not that great. Pierce is only occasionally useful. Useful when: 1. protecting hand from early discard. 2. punishing opponent jamming Jace, Jamming equipment without SFM, stopping early Vindicate. If the game goes distance, which is very likely, eventually some of these Esper builds would find their Academy Ruin (not from that list), which undermines the fact that equipment is in graveyard. Would we consider RiP then?
It's possible Esper would play discard first then following up with a Jace, or EoT Clique then Jace on his turn. Once that happens, it's a lot of effort to get rid of that Jace.
I would favor Bridge over Moat, since Bridge is also useful against Sneak and Show.
