It's no wonder people like to dump on that deck when people play it the way your opponent did. Good job, though!Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiSchafroth
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It's no wonder people like to dump on that deck when people play it the way your opponent did. Good job, though!Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiSchafroth
Agreed - worked to my benefit lol but certainly less than optimal plays happening from across the table. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Regarding Leyline of the Void:
I don't particularly plan to fight Leyline of the Void. I do not see it often enough in my meta. Reason being there aren't a bevy of graveyard decks here except for myself and usually 1 other Reanimator player maybe 2. If the tournament is 40+ people and you know only a couple of people are playing graveyard decks what is the rationale behind playing 4 LotV when the odds are you're not going to play me or that 1 other guy. That coupled with the fact that some players might not even know what the Meta is at that particular LGS they may not want to straight up commit 4 SB slots for something tier 1.5 and instead worry about covering more options against the expected field of tier 1 decks. I'm not saying my opponents aren't packing gravehate its just more of the common ones we face.. DRS, Surgical, RIP, Containment Priest, Graffdiggers Cage, Relic, Tormond's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, etc.. which we all have experience playing against already. These options seem way more reasonable than LotV which some decks can't even cast; this makes them worse when you draw them off the top. There is also that whole thing where they sometimes force you into bad mulligans.
If it was the opposite and our meta was infested with other graveyard strategies I would definitely feel different. As it stands I've been fortunate enough for that not to be the case so I traverse the gravehate that is more "expected" than trying to fight LotV. If I ran into LotV every other round I would reconsider my deck choice...
The odds of you facing Leyline has nothing to do with the amount of GY decks in the expected meta. It only has to do with what decks are able, and/or required to run Leyline. Tezz runs it as part of it's primary strategy. While both 4C Loam and Eldrazi run it because they both have abysmal matchups against GY decks. Loam can hardcast it. Before turn 4. And Eldrazi can mull to it and still present a fast clock. Neither has virtually any relevant interaction with decks like Reanimator and Dredge beyond sometimes Chalice. So not only is all the 1-mana GY hate a poor choice for these, their lack of disruption means that if they aren't able to pre-game their hate, they might not ever get a chance to play it. With the knowledge that these decks are most often going to opt for Leyline, I would make my decision on how to deal with it according to how many of these I expect to face. I've already seen multiple 100+ man tournaments where Eldrazi is 10% of the field(12), with Loam being 4%(5) and 1 Tezz deck. Even with only 7 rounds, your odds are you'll face one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I'm going to ignore the Tezz thing. Sorry, but I'm not considering that deck when making my SB choices other than what I already have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I'm going to argue that the lands matchup can already be bad without them having LotV. They have Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog which you cannot play around and once they can recur it every turn its over. Then they have Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, and Maze of Ith.. Although maybe were speaking of different decks. 4C loam seems to only have LotV or bust which is kind of funny.
but to your own point if we cannot use 1 CMC cards to answer LotV because of Chalice like you mentioned (which I think would still be super lucky for them to have both) and Abrupt doesnt' stop it then what are you suggesting? Wispmare which is super narrow? or perhaps Serenity? or Wear/Tear all 3 of which can't even answer creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or Thalia..etc.
EDIT: Against Lands I tend to go Lotus Petal + Dread Return Package with Iona trying to shut down their Green (loam). Ichorid beatdown which avoid the Tabernacle trigger at upkeep or Dread Return a Fat Troll and as long as you have a City of Brass/Mana Confluence just pay for that 1 creature and beat them down with that assuming they don't have maze either. if they only have Maze then beat them down with a ton of zombies. Not all games go down the same way and you need to try to find those angles which aren't very clear or intuitive.
I never mentioned Lands. Lands doesn't run Leyline. Ever. I don't know why you brought it up. That said, I play with both the highest concentration of Lands players, and the best Lands players regularly. I also beat them regularly. Its not a difficult matchup. Nor is it difficult to play around Crop Rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
You can ignore all the matchups and cards you like. It doesn't change the facts of what they run.
I do agree that both Eldrazi and 4C Loam have to have Leyline, or Chalice and some luck to win. That's why they run it. That's what I said. And both decks are a definite part of the meta.
And I wasn't suggesting anything. I was stating a fact. You are making a mistake in assuming that the amount of Leylines you will see has anything to do with the penetration of GY decks in the meta. It has to do with the decks that run Leyline as a matter of course. As we both said, they have to do so to have a chance of winning, so always do. If your meta is 20% Reanimator, but no one runs Eldrazi or Loam, I'd expect few if any Leylines.
Mybad 4C loam =/= Lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
4C loam should be an easier matchup then. In which case they only really have LotV to rely on. I'll take my chances I guess. Its just such a bad sb card.. ugh. Tbh if I was a 4C loam player or an Eldrazi player I would opt for better choices. Its really LotV or bust
EDIT: Jesus just looked up top 8 4C loam decks packing Lotv. Are they seriously only running 3 LotV really?
With Eldrazi it is Leyline or bust. I've never lost to that deck if the don't open with Leyline. I'm 1-3 in my last 4 Loam matchups. Post board it's difficult. Even without Leyline, Mox can open them with Chalice. Chalice gets them to Knight. Knight gets Bog. Etc. There was a lot of luck involved. Running 3 Leyline and opening with two. Blind ripping Bog on zero cards and the like. But it happens. The deck is set up to be all bombs, even vs Dredge.
But 4C loam can't have everything. It seems like they're either in the Bojuka Bog camp or in the LotV camp; just strictly speaking from the latest TC Deck results. But yeah I can see losing to a Mox Diamond into a Chalice, 2 LotV, or KotR into Bog for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Either way they have to get pretty "lucky". In the example with 2 LotV hitting the field I mean even having an answer will not save anyone from that unless they were running echoing truth. xD
Ha ha, yeah I've played Oops a few times. It's a bit like playing Pact SI. Neither are great decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Going to try to implement some number of Prized Amalgam. I only ran 1 in my main this past weekend with another in the sb replacing the singleton Memory's Journey. The idea being to create diversification of threats if they happen to surgical Ichorid which Parcher already mentioned. And since I used Memory's Journey exclusively for Surgical it seemed like an easy swap.
I replaced an Ichorid main deck, but sometimes Amalgam was worse because I couldn't recur it if I didn't already have another Ichorid to recur or if I didn't hit a Narcomoeba that turn. For this reason I think I'm going to stick with 4 Ichorid, but still run a single Amalgam main cutting 1 of the 3 Street Wraith I normally run; this will essentially be Ichorid #5. This is probably the best cut to make considering that it still allows you to put some amount of pressure on DRS without depleting your resources (i.e. your black creatures). Plus I will say that Wraith is prob one of the more underwhelming cards in my version (PImp probably the case for the traditional builds).
So I'll try to jam a few more games and let you guys know how it turns out. I only play on tournament days though so hang tight. xD
Open question;
Playing this weekend, sat down vs someone I didn't recognize, who I put on Delver. He wins the roll and leads with Strand pass. This puts him on Pierce, so I go to my discard. He plays Tundra Ponder, draws, pass. I had a good dredge, so I run Study into Pierce, which happens, and I pass. He plays Strand, Stoneforge for Skull. I untap with Ichorid, Amalgam, Therapy, and a couple dredgers in my yard. I return Ichorid, pause, dredge, pause, and move to main. At this point, I'm sure he was just posturing, and swing with Ichorid since what I had should have been obvious. He fetches and Plows my Ichorid, and I proceed to lose. Obviously the safest play was to immediately Therapy. But I couldn't wrap my mind around anyone allowing that play with what was visible. I certainly don't think from what I saw the rest of the match, that he was crafty enough to run such a dangerous gambit. Any reason I'm missing where I should expect that line?
parcher, i've ran into that several times on modo. it's very strange, given that they don't plow on the upkeep or at latest the draw step. my understanding is that they are usually very afraid of something else so they are holding up countermagic mana for something....or they simply just overlooked the therapy....or don't understand the concept of priority.
i think generally since StP is so strong vs ichorid, it's worth it just to not deal the 3 damage.
I cant argue with the last line. Though playing safe is a very slippery slope with this deck. But I know from the way the rest of the game fell out that he had no other counters. The rest of the other possible reasoning doesn't really make sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Parcher, I have a feeling your opponent wasn't really sure what he was doing there, or he was working with imperfect information or forgot that Therapy's a thing.
I have a related question regarding sequencing. I've been considering slotting in Amalgams in either my main or sideboard the next time I take Dredge out for a spin (I've been on a Storm bender for several months, and there's no end in sight, but I miss Dredge). I was considering replacing my sideboard Street Wraiths with the Amalgams. Which do you all think is a better card to keep around? How often does the varied sequencing between Icky and PAm come up, and do you all think three or four PAms are better than 0-2?
Amalgam is still worse than Ichorid. Regardless of what configuration you run. I think if Deathrite is your biggest concern that I would stick with Wraith. If you don't have other slots to devote to speeding your deck vs fast Combo, I would stick with Wraith. Vs Extraction, I think Amalgam is better. I've found a lot of Miracles players are now running Extraction, so he becomes better not only due to this, but also to the timing between he and Ichorid to avoid Terminus. I can't see fitting more than two at most main, with possibly a third in the side. More just has diminishing returns since they require an Ichorid, Narco, or DR to do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Icky is still king, no doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I agree with pretty much all of this, although my experience of Miracles is that around me they're still running RiP mainly.
I've taken out LED-dredge twice so far, with 3 and 2 PA's respectively.
2 PA's feels like the most I would want, as more than that will dilute the deck. I still feel like the deck is missing something without some Wraiths or Pimps in there, and PA is kinda competing for the same space. The first time I took out the deck with 3 PA's, I simply took out the Pimps (with no Wraiths). It rolled Miracles with ease, but I didn't really like rumbling without Pimps or Wraiths.
I still run 2 PImp zero Wraith. I think having the additional discard outlet is even more important with Amalgam because you can't afford to have them get stuck in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Maybe run a singleton Phantasmagorian. :U I'm only half serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Also yeah that guy you played didn't really know what was going on if he didn't STP your Icky before your main phase. Your play was reasonable considering that knowledge, but you gave him too much credit I guess? Assuming Ichorid was your only creature it might have just been the safer bet to Flashback Cabal Therapy. Its not uncommon that people misplay against this deck or that the opponent messes up their sequencing. At that point the idea of them having a sandbagged STP becomes a little more real.
Its the different levels you put your opponent on.
EDIT: I've predicated some lines of play during a game based off the lack of experience on my opponents part when it came to playing against Dredge. If they didn't counter something obvious or if they glaringly missed a basic interaction then I'm going to put them on a lower level and I might be more liberal with some of my plays because I know that he/she will not see what I'm actually trying to accomplish. I find this last part to be hilarious considering we play with our "hand" revealed the whole time (yay one sided Telepathy). Assuming our opponents actually knew how to play the deck they would have a very good idea of your lines of play.
Took out the BLUE version again this week at the local.
Maindeck: 13 Lands, 4 Icky, 1 Prized Amalgam, 2 Pimps.
Sideboard: 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, 2 Dread Return, 3 Firestorm, 4 Force of Will, 2 Lotus Petal, 2 Chain of Vapor.
Went 4-1
Beating Burn 2-0, Combo-Elves 2-1, Grixis 2-1, Hypergenesis 2-0
Lost to Death & Taxes (running maindeck RiP/Helm combo) 0-2
Force/Vapor came in for Grixis, HG + D&T. Firestorm, DR w Iona for Elves. DR, Iona & Petals for Burn.
Saw a lot of Force! I lucked out with a flacid Force (no other blue to pitch) twice during the night, but I countered 3 (Ensnaring Bridge, G-Cage, Shardless Agent), with another Force getting Dazed. D&T just ruined me with STP & RiP, and I didn't see Vapor....
==============================================================================================
Now I can say I've run 3, 2 and 1 PA in the main respectively, each over a single meet (4-5 matches each).
With both 3 and 2 PA's, I ran 3 Icky.
3 PA's felt like too many.
2 was good without feeling like it was impacting the deck too much, with one PA I barely noticed it as I didn't actually see it very often.
I think either 1 or 2 is about right for PA, in future I may lean towards 1 as lately I'm preferring all 4 Icky.
I really don't want to drop my numbers of Icky, or any Studies/B-thru's for it.
I think it's a good card, but if I wasn't trying to make Force work (which I'm still not 100% sold on either) I would probably drop it entirely.
My experiences pretty my place me in agreement with all of this. Unfortunately, the deck is at the point where small margins matter. So it's that awful stage where you need to continually test switching only one card at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Thanks for the feedback regarding Amalgam and Street Wraith! I might start testing again with Amalgam instead of Wraith. I used to run zero Wraith, zero PImp, so I don't feel like I'll be missing it too much, but time will tell.
I was just recently watching the movie Knuckleball!, about Wakefield and Dickey. And throughout, the correlation between knuckleballers and Dredge players just kept slamming me in the face.
Nobody starts out playing Dredge. It's never an introductory deck to Magic, no matter the format. And even those who have the knowledge to run it initially never choose to. Everybody wants the 96 mph fastball, sort of like Storm. Or wants to paint the corners and eke out every little advantage like Delver. Or even force other players to swing at curveballs and sliders they know they'll never hit, sort of like Miracles. They certainly don't think they'll gain fame and fortune being a junk baller.
Most knuckle ballers are forced to it by injury, or lack of pure talent. Just like most Dredge players choose it initially as a budget deck. But for the great ones. Hough, Wake, the Niekro brothers, it was a calling. Once they start, going back was never really an option. It becomes part of you. Your identity. In some ways, in life, as well as Magic
Knuckle ballers do everything backwards. Their grip, wind up, delivery. All range from slightly different, to completely opposite of what other pitchers do. Obviously it's the same with Dredge. To the point, some don't even consider it playing Magic. Your graveyard is your hand. Your library is just a depleting asset. Your hand is usually irrelevant. No one respects what you do. Though most fear it.
Dredge players rely on the power of their deck, and the fact that it attacks on an axis the most are unprepared for. Also, it preys on Blue based decks specifically, since their primary interactions, which are the most consistent and powerful, don't often line up against what Dredge is trying to do. Knuckle ballers traditionally do best against the better contact hitters. Your Jeter, Olerud, Williams. The smart ones with the great batting average lose all advantage when neither they, nor the pitcher knows exactly where the ball is going. And, in a similar vein, the power hitters can light up a junk baller by just swinging for the fences and getting lucky. Just how a Storm or Sneak just can just blow Dredge out before it even gets going.
In both cases, the player, and/or the manager has to have real intestinal fortitude. Because the fact is, you don't have any guaranteed consistency. You can throw back to back shutouts, or finish X-0 in running tournaments, then give up 5 runs in the 1st inning. With your performing the exact way each time. Throwing a dead ball it just like dredging into your graveyard. You can be mechanically perfect, and the wind can still carry a slow ball dead into the strike zone. It takes a special kind of person to accept this. And to know that if you just stick with it, the averages will even out. Especially with as much on the line as it is in the Majors or a big Magic tournament.
Both Dredge and knuckleballers are linear in strategy and paths to victory. But in both cases, you have to know when to switch up tempo within that strategy. To vary tactics. You can push a Knuckleball close to 90, losing a bit of the dead ball effect to shorten the time the enemy has to react. But if you don't drop some of them under 70mph, the batter will catch on. And most likely take you yard. Same with Dredge. The whole LED into Breakthrough is your most powerful play. And one of the main draws to the deck. But if you don't choose to manage your resources carefully and pick your spots, a Crop Rotation into Bog, or a well-timed Terminus is going to end your tournament in a hurry.
I don't have a conclusion, and I'm sure there's more that I missed. But I just felt like sharing.
It's also important that Dredge players have patience and can accept losing to resolved hate (without answer) over a stretch of bad losses. It's okay, it's just going to happen. It's part of being a Dredge player and comes with the territory.
More so you should just stop carring about losing games to hate altogether, you didn't make a mistake that resulted in your own loss and you can immediately move on to the next game. It's basically the same zen you need in poker whenever you get coolered, oh my KK ran into your AA ... whatever. You basically take turns making the other feel completely helpless to whatever you're doing, tit for tat.
======SPOILER ALERT========
So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us
FFFFFFFFF-Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Storm is gonna take a hit, too...
I don't think you have anything to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
It's just too slow. The game should be effectively over by turn three. And if you're running FoW, it's definitely too slow. If they start running a bullet Macabre to go with Recruiter, AND they open with it, you could get blown out. I'll take my chances every time. I've yet to drop a game to DnT while running Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Coincidentally, not only will the uptick in DnT be a welcome change, the resulting uptick in Combo should also be good with the Force SB.
You have a list with FOW? What does that look like if I may ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Though the list now is -1 PImp, +1 Fstorm main/-2 Petal,-1 Journey,+1 Unmask,+2 Etruth SBQuote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
SPOILER = Sanctum Prelate Looks like we'll have a Chalice on legs to contend with, like the format needed it.
I think we might need to consider removal we can cast through Chalice effects even more so now, maybe even maindeck.
It's actually even worse than that. "Can't cast" is worse than "counter that spell," especially for anyone still banking on Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
If playing against RIP, Containment Priest and Cage still hasn't deterred you then idk how this new card will...
#justundeadthings
Yep. "Graveyard Hate: Free since 1994."Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
You're a hard man Que.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Chalice of the Void - "Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell."
Sanctum Prelate - "Noncreature spells with converted mana cost equal to the chosen number can't be cast."
I agree that Prelate isn't going to matter all that much if we can go off quickly, assuming they're not running maindeck RiP/Helm.
White is going to have Plowshares, Thalia, Containment & Prelate, not to mention Terminus. That's a minefield.
anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?
I believe Damon Whitby is Parcher here. Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
I'm assuming good after the result.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Well done parcher!
Forces were nice on the draw for him g3 vs me at least in rnd 6. Won him the game off my mul to five for t2 trinisphere. His shirt in the victor's photo is legendary. Congrats!