[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Maybe I'm just drunk, but is anybody else considering Scour from Existinece? I don't play Karn because paying 7 for spot removal seems inferior when you can wipe the board for the asme price. But at instant speed in monogreen? Maybe? I don't know. What is everyone else thinking?

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I'm definitely going to try it. There's something to be said for EOT kill spell to bait counters before going for a real threat, though I don't see single-card threats as being the main problem for us right now. Also notable that Counterbalance effectively can't stop it.

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Originally Posted by Neko448

Stepping away from that though, I can't ever beat a Monastery Mentor on turn 3. Engineered Explosives does work against him, but it never feels like enough. Is there other stuff I can be doing to deal with this guy? How do people feel about builds with MB Meddling Mages?

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I've been thinking about a GB build with Illness in the Ranks/Virulent Plague to permanently shut down Mentor, Pyromancer, Thopter-Sword, and Empty the Warrens. Haven't thought much about what else to use with black though. Beseech the Queen? It finds everything Trinket Mage could but also lands and occasionally bigger stuff.

Can we make Sire of Stagnation work?

http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/s...tagnation.html

My initial instinct is no because cards generally aren't that good when they rely on opponents to go right, but that is a tempting effect.

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Originally Posted by k_omega

I've been thinking about a GB build with Illness in the Ranks/Virulent Plague to permanently shut down Mentor, Pyromancer, Thopter-Sword, and Empty the Warrens. Haven't thought much about what else to use with black though. Beseech the Queen? It finds everything Trinket Mage could but also lands and occasionally bigger stuff.

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I tested a BG build for a brief period of time. I found that pernicious deed hit anything and everything that ever hit the board. Hitting my own pithing needles was rather sketchy though. It certainly gives us some great options for sweeper effects and discard spells. Not sure how great it is though. Illness definitely seems good for the matches with mentor handle monk tokens. You do always have a bog that you can tutor in order to cast it. So it probably isn't terrible if you had to throw a bayou or Usea in order to cast it.

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Originally Posted by Neko448

Oh! They are still posting these! Here you can watch me stomp Miracles at 27:50 and get wrecked by Alluren at 2:08:00.

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Hello! I watched your games and I was very entertained. I wanted to ask how many Krosan Grips you run, since it seems like the best answer to Aluren if it's showing up a lot where you play. I currently play four copies in the sideboard since I'm convinced it's the only truly reliable way to defeat Omnitell (to a lesser extent Wipe Away is as well). At first I was very irked to have to include four copies, but the more I think about it, the Grips give us a lot of solid answers to random junk in Legacy as well as previously very difficult matchups like the aforementioned Aluren, MUD, Food Chain when it was a thing, etc. They are also great answers to scary things like Blood Moon Back to Basics (I got beat by this in Merfolk, a deck making a comeback as of late) and as a bonus they further wreck Miracles, as Tim said earlier. Split second has now become so relevant; I would consider maxing out this card.

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Originally Posted by Neko448

I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren

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I used to be a nonbeliever in running Force in this deck, but once I first tried them in the sideboard, I never looked back. They really shine in the combo matchups that don't have countermagic of their own, namely Storm and Elves. The latter shows up often at my local meta, and having them to stop a Glimpse/GSZ/Natural Order is the only way I feel like I have a fighting chance. Storm requires more setup including Top and having a counter on top of the deck, but once you have that down, the matchup is very winnable, much more so than Elves. I looked up some of your lists on tcdecks and saw that you've been stomping for a while with this deck (very nice!) but I noticed your recent lists have three Tops instead of four. Do you consider four to be too many? I think it is one of the most powerful cards in our deck in almost any matchup, not the least of which is when you need to hide counters. The discard defense alone is a reason you always want to see at least one. Also, I love Needle as well!

About Mentor, I've never really had trouble dealing with him. Repeal is one of the cards I still run that I like to use against him. I know the masses have rendered Repeal obsolete, but situations like these will make you wish you hadn't abandoned it. The Mentor's three casting cost is pretty expensive for the decks wanting to cast him, so they will usually spend their entire turn just casting him. Having Repeal at the ready effectively Time Walks them, just like the old days when you would do so to a Confidant or a Goyf. One thing that I always liked about Repeal compared to Wipe Away was its ability to be countered. Many times I would play a Repeal in order to bait out a counterspell. If they countered it, then a truly backbreaking spell like Show and Tell or Primeval Titan was much more likely to resolve. And if you're running four Show and Tells like you should (Rock's list did, the eternal weekend list did, top lists usually do), then you should have no shortage of powerful spells to follow up with. At least your Wipe Away can hold him off for a turn, and Trickbind can mitigate the token making. Fight power with power and just go over the top of those monks!

Ditching Tabernacle seems like a bad idea now with Grixis Pyromancer everywhere. One sideboard slot seems like a small price to pay for a powerful land that we can easily access.

Good luck and I hope you get featured on many more matches! I like watching this deck in action whenever possible!

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Originally Posted by owerbart

Is running KoTR an obsolete plan?

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I didn't know it was ever played together with the locus lands. I think the color commitment would be too high, plus we don't want to be relying on creatures too early in the game and turn on our opponent's creature removal.

Re: Beating Monastery Mentor

Tabernacle does a lot of work here. More than I even expected. I don't know if it's still up on the Meadery Twitch archives I linked to a few days ago, but the finals of the tournament I won last weekend show me curb stomping Monastery Mentor in 2. Tabernacle played a big part by tying up my opponent's mana and keeping the game manageable until I could wipe the board.


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Tabernacle does a whole lot of work against mentor indeed. Otherwise, I say bring back O-Stone. Or Elephant Grass!

Against 4c Pyromancer and Elves I've been trying Silent Arbiter. It's out of bolt range. Against Mentor it's more vulnerable to swords but nonetheless an obstacle. Not enough data so far but it looks respectable. Searchable with eye too.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Re: Beating Monastery Mentor

Tabernacle does a lot of work here. More than I even expected. I don't know if it's still up on the Meadery Twitch archives I linked to a few days ago, but the finals of the tournament I won last weekend show me curb stomping Monastery Mentor in 2. Tabernacle played a big part by tying up my opponent's mana and keeping the game manageable until I could wipe the board.


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Terminus solves that problem too.

Those decks don't play Teeg, so it should send all the monks back to their respective dojo.

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

Terminus solves that problem too.

Those decks don't play Teeg, so it should send all the monks back to their respective dojo.

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Lol ^^

And yeah w two problems being swarm and omni, the white slash is looking better and better: Terminus, Mage, Cannonist, Teeg...

Spoiled:
Bane of Bala Ged.
Annihilator 2, to exile.
CMC 7, making it a 1 mana improvement over Artisan of Kozilek or Ulamogs Crusher.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

Spoiled:
Bane of Bala Ged.
Annihilator 2, to exile.
CMC 7, making it a 1 mana improvement over Artisan of Kozilek or Ulamogs Crusher.

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For Visual reference.

I just saw that too. The issue I have with it is that I don't play Eldrazi for their annihilators... well, I do, but it's not as high on the list as some make out. Cast triggers is what I look at when considering Eldrazi. And as an aside, I do miss the grave triggers. I had good looping Kozilek with eye (I forget why I had to do that instead of curbstomping with Emrakul, but the memory is there). For 7 mana, it looks like something to test... watch out for all the hate out there.

I wanted to make a note that modern tron, is somewhat a similar type deck. Before BFZ rotates in, a typical list runs
12 threats (6 creatures, 6 planes-walkers)
20 lands
4 sweepers O stone + 4 pyroclasm
12 tutors sylvan, map, stirrings
8 chromatic sphere

I realize modern is a different, slower format and post probably relies more on colored mana, but couldn't a similar calculus work?

4 titan
emrakul
koz
ula
ula II
ugin


4 Cloud
4 Glimmer
4 Vesuva
Eye
karakas
bog
tabernacle
6 forest

4 ostone
2 all is dust

4 map
4 stirring
4 sylvan scry

3 pithing needle
3 candel
3 crop

Seems closest to the booze-list. Biggest difference being 8 fewer lands in exchange for tutors. To me it seems the Murata list was always very top deck strong, and most of my latest tries have devolved away from that. I've been thinking for awhile that post is threat-lite. 7 creatures just not being enough. I'd like to see the new Ulamog in this mix anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

I wanted to make a note that modern tron, is somewhat a similar type deck. Before BFZ rotates in, a typical list runs
12 threats (6 creatures, 6 planes-walkers)
20 lands
4 sweepers O stone + 4 pyroclasm
12 tutors sylvan, map, stirrings
8 chromatic sphere

I realize modern is a different, slower format and post probably relies more on colored mana, but couldn't a similar calculus work?

4 titan
emrakul
koz
ula
ula II
ugin


4 Cloud
4 Glimmer
4 Vesuva
Eye
karakas
bog
tabernacle
6 forest

4 ostone
2 all is dust

4 map
4 stirring
4 sylvan scry

3 pithing needle
3 candel
3 crop

Seems closest to the booze-list. Biggest difference being 8 fewer lands in exchange for tutors. To me it seems the Murata list was always very top deck strong, and most of my latest tries have devolved away from that. I've been thinking for awhile that post is threat-lite. 7 creatures just not being enough. I'd like to see the new Ulamog in this mix anyway.

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The nice part about being a tad bit land heavy is because we have crop rotation which kills off a land to find our utility lands or our post lands and put them directly into play. If it gets countered we are behind a land drop now. Having more lands increases the chances that we don't just lose as a result. Mana can be tight as is because of our utility lands that don't produce mana. Having the extra search would be nice, though we don't want to be overly reliant on it and get blown out in an aggressive game because our mana is tied up in searching for more land. Tron also gets away with it because they 8 eggs which help them cycle through their deck to find the land they need and the threats to cast with that land. Tron also doesn't have wasteland to worry about.

Top 8'd the Black Lotus event with 100+ yesterday. Succumbing to Rich Shay's Grixis list while my deck faltered hard (two mulls, sub-par draws, zero relics), which counts my first game and match losses against Grixis once running heavy Relic's. Here's my list:

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

Matchups were grixisx2, omni (Loss), W/R bloodmoon, Belcherx2, Burn (ID).

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

The nice part about being a tad bit land heavy is because we have crop rotation which kills off a land to find our utility lands or our post lands and put them directly into play. If it gets countered we are behind a land drop now. Having more lands increases the chances that we don't just lose as a result. Mana can be tight as is because of our utility lands that don't produce mana. Having the extra search would be nice, though we don't want to be overly reliant on it and get blown out in an aggressive game because our mana is tied up in searching for more land. Tron also gets away with it because they 8 eggs which help them cycle through their deck to find the land they need and the threats to cast with that land. Tron also doesn't have wasteland to worry about.

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There is ghost quarter. I'm not sure having extra lands prevents the auto-lose when most matches are over within 4 turns anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

I wanted to make a note that modern tron, is somewhat a similar type deck. Before BFZ rotates in, a typical list runs
12 threats (6 creatures, 6 planes-walkers)
20 lands
4 sweepers O stone + 4 pyroclasm
12 tutors sylvan, map, stirrings
8 chromatic sphere

I realize modern is a different, slower format and post probably relies more on colored mana, but couldn't a similar calculus work?

4 titan
emrakul
koz
ula
ula II
ugin


4 Cloud
4 Glimmer
4 Vesuva
Eye
karakas
bog
tabernacle
6 forest

4 ostone
2 all is dust

4 map
4 stirring
4 sylvan scry

3 pithing needle
3 candel
3 crop

Seems closest to the booze-list. Biggest difference being 8 fewer lands in exchange for tutors. To me it seems the Murata list was always very top deck strong, and most of my latest tries have devolved away from that. I've been thinking for awhile that post is threat-lite. 7 creatures just not being enough. I'd like to see the new Ulamog in this mix anyway.

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The biggest difficulty I see is that you're trying to play 4x Primeval Titan in this list. One of the reasons that I've stayed away from Titan is that I simply couldn't reliably support 4GG, especially in the early game. While my build is nominally monogreen, the green is really more of a splash -- primarily for Ancient Stirrings and Crop Rotation. I rarely want to play more than one Forest unless truly necessary, frequently keep all-colorless hands, and regularly Crop Rotation away my only green source. Even with the full 4x Candelabras that I run, I've found that Titan was stranded in my hand far more often than I was comfortable with -- and that's even with a higher Forest count than you have here.

As far as Sylvan Scrying goes, it is definitely a powerful card. I've run it myself from time to time, and I regularly consider swapping out my SDTs for Sylvan Scrying. That said, it can also be slow. And you'll need more green sources for it to be consistent.

Personally, I think that being threat-light is one of the major benefits of playing Post. With the ability to easily tutor for your threats via Eye of Ugin (or dig deep with Ancient Stirrings), you can get away with devoting a minimum number of slots to just a few extremely high-impact and resilient threats, which leaves you a lot of room for toolbox cards, removal, and card selection with which to find them.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

The biggest difficulty I see is that you're trying to play 4x Primeval Titan in this list. One of the reasons that I've stayed away from Titan is that I simply couldn't reliably support 4GG, especially in the early game. While my build is nominally monogreen, the green is really more of a splash -- primarily for Ancient Stirrings and Crop Rotation. I rarely want to play more than one Forest unless truly necessary, frequently keep all-colorless hands, and regularly Crop Rotation away my only green source. Even with the full 4x Candelabras that I run, I've found that Titan was stranded in my hand far more often than I was comfortable with -- and that's even with a higher Forest count than you have here.

As far as Sylvan Scrying goes, it is definitely a powerful card. I've run it myself from time to time, and I regularly consider swapping out my SDTs for Sylvan Scrying. That said, it can also be slow. And you'll need more green sources for it to be consistent.

Personally, I think that being threat-light is one of the major benefits of playing Post. With the ability to easily tutor for your threats via Eye of Ugin (or dig deep with Ancient Stirrings), you can get away with devoting a minimum number of slots to just a few extremely high-impact and resilient threats, which leaves you a lot of room for toolbox cards, removal, and card selection with which to find them.

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I've tried your deck, maybe not extensively. I found myself getting Jaced out or even spot removal with councils judgement was enough to shut me down.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Top 8'd the Black Lotus event with 100+ yesterday. Succumbing to Rich Shay's Grixis list while my deck faltered hard (two mulls, sub-par draws, zero relics), which counts my first game and match losses against Grixis once running heavy Relic's. Here's my list:

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

Matchups were grixisx2, omni (Loss), W/R bloodmoon, Belcherx2, Burn (ID).

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Wow, just another Top8! Congrats! List looks solid, but one question: Ugin SB, for what Matchups?

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Originally Posted by Postman

Wow, just another Top8! Congrats! List looks solid, but one question: Ugin SB, for what Matchups?

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Ugin is for any fair matchup, or when I'm siding out titans/shows. Mostly I'm pre-boarding relics, so ugin comes in when you would expect it to be good, which isn't always, but often.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

I've tried your deck, maybe not extensively. I found myself getting Jaced out or even spot removal with councils judgement was enough to shut me down.

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Is this vs Miracles, I assume? If so, your first priority in the matchup is simply to find Eye of Ugin. Unless they're running a Mentor build, resolving Expedition Map to find Eye should win you the game by itself well over 95% of the time.


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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Top 8'd the Black Lotus event with 100+ yesterday. Succumbing to Rich Shay's Grixis list while my deck faltered hard (two mulls, sub-par draws, zero relics), which counts my first game and match losses against Grixis once running heavy Relic's. Here's my list:

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

Matchups were grixisx2, omni (Loss), W/R bloodmoon, Belcherx2, Burn (ID).

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Rock congrats, you give us hope oh great creator!

I’d like to ask, if you’re planning to update the match-ups section with the latest tech and meta (in depth shit…)? Or maybe do one of those extensive tournament reports…? Throw us a bone man, some of us are complete noobs and would very much appreciate any insight you can share. Feed your humble minions and thy deck shall prosper.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

...Matchups were grixisx2, omni (Loss), W/R bloodmoon, Belcherx2, Burn (ID).

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Belcher x2 ?

Please tell me trickbind got there. :-)

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Ugin is for any fair matchup, or when I'm siding out titans/shows. Mostly I'm pre-boarding relics, so ugin comes in when you would expect it to be good, which isn't always, but often.

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Woah, hold on. Siding out titans? When is this correct? I've honestly never done this, but maybe it's absolutely correct. On a semi-related note, I was watching a 12post player thromp through the legacy PIQ in Milwaukee with Trinisphere and it's made me really start to respect the card. He sweeped his first three match-ups, Storm, Omni, Omni, with it, which are notoriously tough matchups. I feel like it's also good against decks like mentor and Aluren. Compared to Chalice on one, which has been my go to and is also really hard for me to play around, this allows us to press our mana advantage by continuing to cast spells. Are there matches where bringing in spheres over titans is correct?

Also, Platinum Emperion is an absolute house and probably going to be a mainstay in 12post for awhile.

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

Belcher x2 ?

Please tell me trickbind got there. :-)

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I was holding trickbind all 4 games at some point but they combo'd before I had 2 up, into goblins three times and all 4 games came down to chasm at either instant speed or show & tell emperion/titan.

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Originally Posted by Neko448

Woah, hold on. Siding out titans? When is this correct? I've honestly never done this, but maybe it's absolutely correct. On a semi-related note, I was watching a 12post player thromp through the legacy PIQ in Milwaukee with Trinisphere and it's made me really start to respect the card. He sweeped his first three match-ups, Storm, Omni, Omni, with it, which are notoriously tough matchups. I feel like it's also good against decks like mentor and Aluren. Compared to Chalice on one, which has been my go to and is also really hard for me to play around, this allows us to press our mana advantage by continuing to cast spells. Are there matches where bringing in spheres over titans is correct?

Also, Platinum Emperion is an absolute house and probably going to be a mainstay in 12post for awhile.

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I side out primeval titans against many decks. Reanimator, omni, storm, Anything really fast where chasm/bog won't win it for me.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Rock congrats, you give us hope oh great creator!

I’d like to ask, if you’re planning to update the match-ups section with the latest tech and meta (in depth shit…)? Or maybe do one of those extensive tournament reports…? Throw us a bone man, some of us are complete noobs and would very much appreciate any insight you can share. Feed your humble minions and thy deck shall prosper.

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I will at a future time. I can update the meta decks a bit, with some newcomers like grixis and omni and also trickbind's usages. By the weekend for sure.

As for learning things like sideboarding and in depth plays, just playing the deck and looking for opportunities are your best bets.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I was holding trickbind all 4 games at some point but they combo'd before I had 2 up, into goblins three times and all 4 games came down to chasm at either instant speed or show & tell emperion/titan.



I side out primeval titans against many decks. Reanimator, omni, storm, Anything really fast where chasm/bog won't win it for me.



I will at a future time. I can update the meta decks a bit, with some newcomers like grixis and omni and also trickbind's usages. By the weekend for sure.

As for learning things like sideboarding and in depth plays, just playing the deck and looking for opportunities are your best bets.

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Interesting SB - techs :-) I usually keep Titans against Reanimator, e.g. if they keep S'n'T in their deck as a tutor for Karakas / Chasm or to hardcast it later. Against omni I keep it to have more cards I can put into play when they S'n'T so I get priority to cast Wipe away / Grip... What are your wincons in these MUs?

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Originally Posted by Ponders

I wanted to make a note that modern tron, is somewhat a similar type deck.

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I actually have been testing a deck that is among other things based on this.

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Thespian Stage
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
2 All is Dust
2 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Chromatic Star
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Explore
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn

1 Savannah
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Trinisphere
1 Tabernacle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ulamog/Karn, Liberated

Unfortunately my testing time has been limited these last couple of weeks, so the list is far from finished and the numbers are definitely open for tweaking, but so far it has been testing quite decently, especially considering how unfinished the list is. Sideboard is still pretty much a free-for-all, skewed by the heavy combo meta I play in.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Is this vs Miracles, I assume? If so, your first priority in the matchup is simply to find Eye of Ugin. Unless they're running a Mentor build, resolving Expedition Map to find Eye should win you the game by itself well over 95% of the time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I have always worked to get cavern of souls first vs miracles. In my limited experience I have found that resolving a prime time. is better then trying to dig for cloudposts. It is almost always is going to get plowed or terminused but he did his job when he resolves.

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Originally Posted by moseby

I have always worked to get cavern of souls first vs miracles. In my limited experience I have found that resolving a prime time. is better then trying to dig for cloudposts. It is almost always is going to get plowed or terminused but he did his job when her resolves.

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Same is true for me. First goal: Cavern of Souls into Prime Time, at least in Game 1...

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Originally Posted by Postman

Same is true for me. First goal: Cavern of Souls into Prime Time, at least in Game 1...

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Pre-Mentor, I've always been under the impression the most important card in matchup is Eye of Ugin then expedition map. Cavern>Titan is good, but if they aren't putting a clock on you, just hitting land drops and running Titan after Titan into Force will usually be enough. Most of the time they just counter your Top or Map anyways, leaving you a clear route to stick a Titan. With Mentor though, IDK. Just slamming titan doesn't seem good or fast enough anymore and I really feel like the match up needs to be reassessed. It isn't the bye it used to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moseby

I have always worked to get cavern of souls first vs miracles. In my limited experience I have found that resolving a prime time. is better then trying to dig for cloudposts. It is almost always is going to get plowed or terminused but he did his job when he resolves.

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Doesn't really apply in my build, as it doesn't play either Cavern or PrimeTime. Eye is basically all I need to beat Miracles. Unless they present an early clock -- which they almost never do unless they're on a Mentor build -- you will have plenty of time to develop your mana. If you have the Eye, you have all the threats you ever need, and couldn't care less about Terminus. Kozilek buries them under a flood of card advantage, Ulamog takes out a Jace about to ultimate, and Emrakul just wins.

Resolving a T1 Expedition Map under Counterbalance has been enough to guarantee a win for me 99% of the time. Literally, I have only lost a single game where vs Miracles where that happened; my opponent had a T3 Blood Moon on the play and then immediately topdecked Clique to knock the K-Grip out of my hand.

Got 1st at weekly legacy with this build: Matchups were Tezzerator, Junk, Burn

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [ORI] Orbs of Warding


Yes, orbs came in every matchup and yes they were amazing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Got 1st at weekly legacy with this build: Matchups were Tezzerator, Junk, Burn

// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [ORI] Orbs of Warding


Yes, orbs came in every matchup and yes they were amazing.

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Nice find on the orbs! I think I would make better use of the second line of text in order to erase Pyromancer token damage. Plus the combo hate it provides. Seems versatile enough to include.

Maindeck Trinisphere is bold. I have been using them out of the sideboard and they have been doing so much work for me. I like that they have the unique function of being good to drop in against Omni and as pre-emptive hate against Storm (I think this is the only card that fits this role). I might just have to try them maindecked.

Do you think the second basic Island is necessary? You have no Wipe Away and it seems like the slot could go to another utility land (second Vesuva?). But other than that, I really like this list. Seems like the Trickbind build is getting very polished and streamlined.

On top of that Trini is strong against all decks running Probe + Therapy, which are quite a bunch.

Can we discuss Relic a bit? Its 'good' against alot of decks, but considered maindeck material due to Dig no? From a simple gy hate standpoint (not considering dig) we already have Bog and Surgical from the board. While strong, its also just meh or even pay 2 draw a card material in some matchups. What I noticed is that Remand is pretty strong against Dig, as they eat out their graveyard and have to rebuild afterwards. Besides this it is a good way to delay YP and Mentor and Lilliana. Repeal served a similar purpose in earlier builds, but is more expensive and cant handle token generators that well. Remand is weak against very low to the ground decks like Tempo ***** or 'cast trigger decks' like Enchantress though.
I would appreciate to focus the discussion on Rock Lees list as a common ground and talk about single cards choices.

3-0 with my Bant build last night beating NicShift, Manaless Dredge and Miracles.

Accidentally attacked in with a Meddling Mage against a vengeful pharaoh in a graveyard. That felt really bad lol!

I still need to find a way to squeeze in a basic forest, because my build feels more susceptible to blood moon than normal.

Dudes,

I’m looking at two tournaments in the next two weeks (they come rarely in my parts...:cry:) and I’m excited to play this beast, but I’m still not quite set on the build, as on the one hand I want to copy rock’s list and on the other I want to run those god damn FoW's I just bought…

Here’s what I have thus far:

Land (26)
• 1x Bojuka Bog
• 1x Cavern of Souls
• 4x Cloudpost
• 1x Eye of Ugin
• 1x Forest
• 1x Glacial Chasm
• 4x Glimmerpost
• 2x Island
• 1x Karakas
• 4x Misty Rainforest
• 4x Tropical Island
• 2x Vesuva

Sorcery (4)
• 4x Show and Tell

Artifact (10)
• 1x Candelabra of Tawnos
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 2x Expedition Map
• 2x Relic of Progenitus
• 4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (9)
• 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
• 2x Platinum Emperion
• 4x Primeval Titan
• 1x Trinket Mage

Instant (11)
• 4x Brainstorm
• 3x Crop Rotation
• 4x Trickbind

Sideboard (15)
• 2x Blue Elemental Blast
• 4x Force of Will
• 3x Krosan Grip
• 2x Surgical Extraction
• 2x Swan Song
• 2x Trinisphere

Any suggestions?

Here’s a trick question for you Rock: if someone pointed an AK-12 assault rifle at you and said in Russian: play those god damn FoW’s or die! Which list would you present to them?
you would probably get shot as you don't speak Russian right? but let's assume they’re asking the question in Mandarin, which you speak fluently ... :laugh:
Anyways i'm looking forward to rock’s update of the match-ups section – very much so! Thanks man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by k_omega

I'd watch that stream. Watching you thrash Manaless Dredge on camera is the reason I picked up 12 post, and Legacy as a whole for that matter.

No Ugin? Natural Selection over Ancient Stirrings? Leyline of Sanctity over additional spheres? No Krosan Grip? I'd like to know your thoughts on those choices as they're quite different from what has worked well for me.

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I'm going to start the stream tonight after work at 6:30pm PST maybe earlier depending when I get off work :D

my name on twitch is Ehhhhhhh (7 H's) also this is the list i'll be running.. I went 2-1 yesterday with some unfortunate draws against Maverick.. that matchup should've been a bye :P <Didn't Draw green sources / kept semi-greedy hands> Top just didn't get there...

here is my new list

4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Pyroclasm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Into the North
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
1 Courser of Kruphix

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Taiga
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Dark Depths
1 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Thespian's Stage

SB
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Savannah
1 Gaddock Teeg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadlock

On top of that Trini is strong against all decks running Probe + Therapy, which are quite a bunch.

Can we discuss Relic a bit? Its 'good' against alot of decks, but considered maindeck material due to Dig no? From a simple gy hate standpoint (not considering dig) we already have Bog and Surgical from the board. While strong, its also just meh or even pay 2 draw a card material in some matchups. What I noticed is that Remand is pretty strong against Dig, as they eat out their graveyard and have to rebuild afterwards. Besides this it is a good way to delay YP and Mentor and Lilliana. Repeal served a similar purpose in earlier builds, but is more expensive and cant handle token generators that well. Remand is weak against very low to the ground decks like Tempo ***** or 'cast trigger decks' like Enchantress though.
I would appreciate to focus the discussion on Rock Lees list as a common ground and talk about single cards choices.

---

I'm not Rock obviously, but I like Relic of Progenitus a lot. It just does a lot of good things. The prevalence of Dig Through Time has made cards that can combat the graveyard on a long-term basis a lot more practical. But Relic also gives a lot more value beyond that. As Rock has pointed out many times, most decks that can kill you on turn 1 or turn 2 utilize the graveyard in some way. While we do have Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog as a potential out, there is nothing wrong with having a more extensive list of outs, especially when you can put that out right on the table and tell your opponent that they have to play around this or lose...although Relic is admittedly inferior to Tormod's Crypt in this scenario. It also does a good job of fighting Deathrite Shaman: if you can deny a BUG deck access to three mana on turn two, you often go a long way toward stifling their development. I've also seen Grixis lists that run Deathrite. The fact that it exiles your own graveyard doesn't really matter as our deck, minus the moment an Eldrazi trigger happens, generally only cares about our graveyard insofar as our opponents gaining advantage from it. Relic plays nicely with Trinket Mage if you want to run a toolbox package. And as a last resort, if the card has outlived its usefulness, you can turn it into another card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MechTactical

Dudes,

I’m looking at two tournaments in the next two weeks (they come rarely in my parts...:cry:) and I’m excited to play this beast, but I’m still not quite set on the build, as on the one hand I want to copy rock’s list and on the other I want to run those god damn FoW's I just bought…

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Do you know what metagame to expect at these tournaments? If you expect unfair matchups (OMNI, storm, etc...) then you can gravitate towards FoW. If you expect a lot of fair, you might be able to leave the FoW at home.

Lastly, if your running FoW, make sure you have an ample count of blue cards post board. I always aim for 15-18, including the FoWs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by into_play

Do you think the second basic Island is necessary? You have no Wipe Away and it seems like the slot could go to another utility land (second Vesuva?). But other than that, I really like this list. Seems like the Trickbind build is getting very polished and streamlined.

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I think second basic island is better than 2nd Vesuva, but it is a flex slot for 2nd vesuva and I could understand the sub.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deadlock

On top of that Trini is strong against all decks running Probe + Therapy, which are quite a bunch.

Can we discuss Relic a bit? Its 'good' against alot of decks, but considered maindeck material due to Dig no? From a simple gy hate standpoint (not considering dig) we already have Bog and Surgical from the board. While strong, its also just meh or even pay 2 draw a card material in some matchups. What I noticed is that Remand is pretty strong against Dig, as they eat out their graveyard and have to rebuild afterwards. Besides this it is a good way to delay YP and Mentor and Lilliana. Repeal served a similar purpose in earlier builds, but is more expensive and cant handle token generators that well. Remand is weak against very low to the ground decks like Tempo ***** or 'cast trigger decks' like Enchantress though.
I would appreciate to focus the discussion on Rock Lees list as a common ground and talk about single cards choices.

---

Relic is there mostly for Deathrite Shaman acceleration, secondly for graveyard abuse (snapcasters/reanimator/past in flames/cabal therapy), thirdly for cycling on colorless mana as a fixer, and lastly for dig through time. All in that order of priority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MechTactical

Dudes,

Here’s a trick question for you Rock: if someone pointed an AK-12 assault rifle at you and said in Russian: play those god damn FoW’s or die! Which list would you present to them?
you would probably get shot as you don't speak Russian right? but let's assume they’re asking the question in Mandarin, which you speak fluently ... :laugh:
Anyways i'm looking forward to rock’s update of the match-ups section – very much so! Thanks man.

---

If you HAVE to play FoW, then include another blue card main, either spell pierce or repeal, likely over the spot of x2 plat emperion and x1 SDT. Then sub x2 of your silver bullet cards in the sideboard for fow. I would probably use orbs of warding and surgical extractions. Not optimal, but could work. Keep the rest of my list the same.

So is the consensus now that 12Post is a much better metagame choice recently due to the decreased presence of Omnitell, which was otherwise omnipresent a few months ago?