I ran 2 bayou and 1 savannah (and full shaman, of course), and still find myself short of Green in some games.
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I ran 2 bayou and 1 savannah (and full shaman, of course), and still find myself short of Green in some games.
Hey guys, I've been testing this deck for a bit. (still trying to get a couple cards out of proxy state) I was hoping I could get some feed back on this list I've put together. Only really been able to test it against a couple decks so not sure if I am missing some key things.
Lands:
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
Creature Slots:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Lingering Souls
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Spells:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
I have yet to really put a sideboard together since I'm not sure what the meta is going to look like by the time I finish it out. Any feedback is great. Thanks!
Looking at the recent success of death and taxes, I've been toying around witht he idea of returning more towards a "classic deadguy" build, away from the lists that have been running deathrite shaman and liliana. Deathrite shaman and lili are still both quite ridiculous in terms of power for the deck, but idk as i've been playing my list more and more the more im finding neither are what I want to be doing. I cut moms in favor of deathrites a long time ago, but i think i'll be sleeving them back up instead of the elves. Many of the creatures we play are small, yet very powerful in what they do. I think it would be more beneficial to run mom which lets us protect our threats then running deathrite which accelerates us into them ? aether vial used to accelerate us into our threats decent enough, and i think it would be pretty good again.
Been brewing with my play group the last couple days, and a rough draft list i'm going to test out at our next fnm is going to look like this
Lands
4 scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 plains
2 swamps
1 karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
creatures
4 stoneforge
4 mother of runes
4 dark confidant
4 thalia
3 revoker
2 mirran crusader
2 aven mindcensor
2 tidehollow sculler
1 leonin arbiter
Instant/Sorcery
2 thoughtseize
1 cabal therapy (personal preference)
4 swords to plowshares
Artifacts
1 batterskull
1 jitte
4 aether vial
sideboard
1 revoker
2 thoughtseize
2 zealous persecution
2 rest in peace
2 surgical extractions
1 sword of fire and ice
1 engineered explosives
1 perish
2 oblivion ring
1 path to exile
essentially gearing more towards a classic list while adding a similar land base from death and taxes. our deck used to play a lot like death taxes back in the day, deathrite shaman i feel skewed us more towards a "junk" play style, not that I'm argueing thats wrong at all! deathrite adds many dimensions to the previous versions of the deck that the list i'm testing out above lacks severely, but i feel like this idea is worth a go. i'll keep everyone informed on how the testing goes and how i do at the next fnm but would love to see feedback
Hmmm...I would say take out the Inquisitions and replace them with a mix of Thoughtseizes/Cabal Therapies. I'd say 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Therapies, since you run 3 Lingering Souls and 2 Elspeths. Also, no Deathrite Shaman? I admit it took me a while to realize the insanity of that card. You need to find a way to find a spot for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleight
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragamuffinvb
This looks more like the usual vial list, which always roams around parallel to the deadguy ale list without vial. Common considered cards are Grunt and Serra avenger as well. This version of DGA is just as viable as the other version is. It feels like tempo and has some nice exploatable mechanics (vialing Sculler during draw step is a nice move). I found, that the other, vial-less version is of more consistency. Then again, that may be personal preference. All in all, this concept is far from being new.
I was trying to avoid splashing green. I admit getting the extra mana or grave hate seem pretty awesome though. Would straight up moving mana around and trading it for mother be viable? I wasn't sure if the hand removal was good enough for protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Mother of Runes is great but Deathrite IMHO is better. You could play both Mother of Runes and Deathrite.
I personally just play Deathrites in my build. Couldn't find the room. Plus, my deck already gets hurt by all the splash hate from True Name Nemesis (ie. golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution). No need to add to the pain of losing Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant and Lingering Souls.
You can't justify MoR over DRS as there's no opportunity cost to running Deathrite Shaman. The mana ramp and -2 life are the two major reasons for playing the card, while the +2 is gravy and requires a splash of 2-3 dual lands. We already play enough nonbasics to get hit by Wasteland, so it's not like we're stretching the mana thinner and increasing our risk by a significant margin. You can do as wilkin said and play MoR in addition to DRS, but not in place of it.
Abrupt Decay, on the other hand, does put more of a strain on your mana as it will always need green. There doesn't seem to be many of you playing it, but I've had it in the deck for a while and love it. It's usually just a more efficient, uncounterable Vindicate.
I like Decay but I'd prefer not to go heavy into 3 colors. I like basics. :) I only play one Bayou and I'm happy with that. Last tournament, I mainly used Bayou so I could Engineered Explosives for 3...once to kill True name, the other to kill Knight of the Reliquary.
I also like the versatility of Vindicate, taking out Jace, Batterskull or just as a Stone Rain is nice.
Agreed! Even though I'm not running DGA (interested in it), I do play Team Italia and have won many games off of the back of that singleton Elspeth. I prefer her over Hero of Bladehold due to the evasion and the fact that having a 7/7 Vigilance, Lifelink, Flying Batterskull is absolutely insane. Elspeth is outside of Abrupt Decay and Bolt range and can't be StPS'd. Besides, she's usable the turn she comes in and provides a more scarier clock, in my opinion. Bobing into her sucks but hardly ever happens, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
Anyways, I'm interested in DGA, but am currently playing Team Italia and a lot of the core overlaps with DGA. I would love to have a DGA build utilizing Vial and Tidehollow Sculler, since I find that synergy absolutely awesome. It's like Vendilion Clique-ing, but only better (though you can't recycle anything from your own hand). Is the Vial + Tidehollow Sculler build still viable? I also play D&T and would love to have a list that's a mix of DGA and D&T, though I don't know how viable it will be, since DGA is already not really a DTB, sadly. (not saying it's bad)
I thought about splashing black in Death and Taxes for Thoughtseize and Bob. Might be ok, however you can't run as many non-color sources, which sucks.
Deadguy Ale isn't a DTB and Personally I don't mind that at all. I love it. That means people aren't going to sideboard heavily just for me. I always get the jokes from people that next time we face they are gonna have 4 Sword of Light and Shadows in board.
At the moment, I'm kind of meh over Vial. It's a bad late game topdeck and you have to IMO run at least 20 creatures to make it worth it. That means less space for cards like Lingering Souls and Liliana.
I very much agree, you'd need to sacrifice space for the Vials. The upside is, I think that Vialing a Bob EoT can be absolutely awesome. If he sticks around and nets you card advantage, Bob suddenly becomes extremely valuable, more than ever, since we can poop things out even more via Vial. But, like you said, we'd need to cut things. So, I'm not sure if it's really worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Black splash shouls probly be a quite good splash fot dnt when Zealous Persecution and Pontif are such strong cards atm, namely against true name.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme
Agreed. I therefore feel that DGA and Team Italia can be quite effective now in the meta filled with TNN's. Zealous Persecution is gonna do a lot for us, but we should not forget that Deathblade variants run them as well, which often screws us over just as much; kills Bobs, MoMs, tokens, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Black has lot of ways to deal with tnn, edicts, Liliana zealous Persecution, Orzhov Pontif, Massacre, Toxic Deluge and much more.
Yeah I don't fear True-Name Nemesis at all. Lol, in fact it made Zealous Persecution even better. Before TNN, it was Geist. And yeah True Name is better but Geist doesn't die to -1/-1 effects.
I fear more the decks that play Zealous or Golgari Charm . The splash damage from hating out True Name affects us too.
As for the Vial deck. Something like this perhaps?
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SOFI
23 lands....
Still sticking with my non-vial build of Deadguy. Only change I made since GP was taking out a Hero and putting a Gatekeeper of Malakir in its place. The funny thing, now that i play only one Hero I see it way more often and am able to cast it. And having 15 removal maindeck is awesome...:)
Yeah, I don't think a Vial build would work well. It works well for D&T because they have Thalia, Wasteland and Port, which closes the entire package. Merfolk has Standstill and Mutavaults they can abuse with Vial. We'd just be Vialing Tidehollow Sculler 'cause we can ... but it wouldn't be super effective and I think it would just be an inferior version of D&T.
I think there could be something to a Black splash in a D&T shell, but I think you'd likely have to drop the Mangara/Flickerwispangle (which seems to be losing some favor anyway). The one thing D&T really seems to lack is card advantage, and there's the potential to fix that with Bob and discard effects. I would probably go with a minimal discard package like EsperBlade, but include Sculler, which is actually nuts with Vial. It at least merits some testing, which I might do since I've had the itch to pick up Deadguy again lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme
Lol, ironic. I've been thinking of playing Tin Fins again. I've only played it in one tournament. Went 2-2 but it was awesome. Having your entire deck in your hand as your hand is a feeling that is hard to articulate. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Yeah Death and Taxes has been trending a bit towards Serra Avenger again, so that all the golgari charms etc. don't completely wreck them.
Maybe we can come up with some sort of list? I think, for it to be just as effective as D&T, you need the Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Karakas package. The rest is open to Scrublands, fetches and basics. The downside to this is that we suddenly become vunerable again to Stifle and our Duals might be Wasteland targets again. Also, Price of Progress, but, whatever, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
D&T Core:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What can we take out of this list and replace with Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler AND even some possible discard?
The possible options I see are:
- Flickerwisp
- Mirran Crusader
- Aven Mindcensor
- Phyrexian Revoker (dropping it down to 3 due to sometimes really just being a 2/1 body)
It's weird; I play D&T myself and see a huge use for all the creatures above. I've won many a game off of a well-timed Vialed-in Flickerwisp and Aven Mindcensor has its uses vs opposing Blade decks or combo decks (though it's a bit slow at 3CMC). The singleton Mirran Crusader is just a threat beater and can be taken out if need be (though he can quickly end games, which D&T and DGA both miss). Phyrexian Revoker can be a pretty dead card in some matches, but in others it just wins games by shutting down Liliana, for instance.
I wouldn't take out the Serra Avengers, since it's the only creature that has all of this; evasion, a relative body and can be Vialed-in on 2. If you'd take out the Flickerwisps and the Aven Mindcensors, this would be the only creature left in the deck with evasion. Besides, she's really good with equipment due to the vigilance.
I think the core speaks for itself, Mom, SfM, Thalia, Revoker, Vial, equipment, StPS, etc. I don't think we'd be able to add any discard. If we'd make a Vial-build, we can't take away too much creatures for other spells, besides, we play Thalia and I don't think it would really mesh well to add additional discard in non-creature form. We might be able to add it to the SB vs. combo, for instance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm thinking of something like this ...
Deadguy Ale & Taxes:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand (or any white-based fetch)
4 Scrubland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard could run Zealous Persecution, discard vs. combo, etc. Never been a huge fan of D&T's sideboard and vs. combo it feels like a hit or miss. This version might even have a better chance vs. combo.
Anyways, this is what I could come up with. Maybe I'm too stuck to the core of D&T that I'm missing what I could drop, so, let's just brainstorm here. The one thing I notice right off the bat is that we never have to up our Vial to 3, it can always stay at 2, which is nice since experienced players know that when D&T ups their Vial to 3 they either have a Flickerwisp or an Aven Mindcensor. For now I added 4 Tidehollow Sculler, but we might be able to run 3 and then replace that spot with 1 Mirran Crusader or an additional Revoker to get him back to 4 or even a 4th Serra Avenger. Enough options.
For the landbase; it's gonna be a hit or miss and I do think this version might have less consistency. I dropped the Horizon Canopy due to hoping not to need that with Dark Confidant. Didn't think we'd need a basic Swamp. All we need is that basic Plains and the rest we fetch up will get us in business, even if it's just for a moment. I would hate to have a basic Swamp in my opening hand and not being able to cast Mom or StPS. However, nothing is set in stone. A basic Swamp might be handy to establish all we need (B for Tidehollow Sculler and Bob), though we don't run BB, so ... we might be just fine. Cavern of Souls is even more useful now due to Bob being a Human as well.
The rest is still pretty much D&T. I'm actually quite excited to just try this out, haha
the mana base i have been running the last few weeks has beenQuote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme
4 marsh flats
1 verdant
4 scrublands
2 karakas
3 plains
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
it's been rather stable and i havent had problems. as to the creature package, the only real upgrade to the dnt creature list is bob in my honest opinion. i've tested sculler and bob and found both are good, however discard is not what the deck wants to be doing. It's better to have a lock piece like thalia or arbiter (my list) on the board then taking pieces with sculler or getting bob online. my creature list is
4 mom
4 stoneforge
3 bob
4 thalia
3 revoker
2 arbiter
1 mindcensor
2 mirranc crusader
2 flickerwisp
2 sculler
the only thing i would cut from this list as a flex spot would be the singleton mangara, but overall it's been performing well for me, sculler is good as a two of i think, as you want to deploy lock pieces with the overall gameplan of mana denial. generally as i've played with the list i vial in bob only once i've run out of steam, the second i get into top deck mode he's the perfect nail in the coffin to end games with as you will now be drawing to cards a turn, playing things for free, while preventing ur opponent from playing anything
This is what I've been testing, and so far it's looking promising:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Sunlance
Ignore the SB, it's just a straight rip from the D&T list I started with, although it's not a bad starting point. I would probably cut a Revoker from the main right now, since it has limited applications against RUG, Team America, and Patriot, possibly add another Mirran Crusader to hedge bets against Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution? Board needs more discard to shore up the combo matchup.
Regarding the manabase, don't you think that 3rd Plains could be a Karakas? I mean, Karakas + Thalia is just really important in a lot of matches and seeing as you play Mangara, it's even more so. You really want that Karakas.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragamuffinvb
Leonin Arbiter is cute, but you do realize that, with it, you blank SFM's, right? Or well, it let's SFM cost 4 or 2 + Vial. I don't think it's that great, especially since you're running Aven Mindcensor anyways.
Is that the reason why you're not running SFM? I don't really get that, to be honest. Does that even work? Also, no Serra Avenger? No equipment at all?
Regarding Tidehollow Sculler; I get that 'discard is not what we want to do' - but it's really more than that. It works well vs. combo; somebody drops a LED, you in response Vial in Sculler to take their Tutor, Empty the Warrens, Belcher, you name it. Also, vs. blade-decks you can, in response to their SFM activation, just snag their Batterskull / Jitte / etc. Which are all really good plays and can impact the game a lot.
Now, this list I can dig. It's close to what I have envisioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Manabase: What I would do is really just play at least 2 to 3 Karakas. Do we really need basic Swamps? I could imagine 1 Swamp in case of Blood Moon or Wastelanding, but even in that case, we might just be better of starting off with a Basic plains and then keep adding Scrublands. Maybe just 1 Swamp might work, but I'd probably just replace that with 1 Cavern of Souls (Humans), which works for Bob. You want to Vial in Sculler anyways.
Creatures: I would always play 4 Thalia. Maybe 3 SFM would work, since we've added Bob and might run into her quicker than we'd normally would with normal draws at 4 copies. So, that I can dig.
You do miss any form of evasion, which might be troublesome.
Discard: you've got 4 (7, with 3 Scullers) discard options main, maybe move some to the sideboard and up the creature count again? Go to 4 Thalia (she's so important for Rishadan Port locks!) and 4 Tidehollow Sculler. Remove 2 Inquistion of Kozilek. Keep 2 Thoughtseize. Add some more discard to the SB in the form of Duress or more Thoughtseize (might be harmful with Bob, though)?
I think this is gonna be my list:
[LAND : 23]
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand (or any white-based fetch)
4 Scrubland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
[CREATURES : 26]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
[INSTANTS : 4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
[UTILITY : 7]
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
[SIDEBOARD]
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Vindicate / 2 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
The sideboard will be under construction. With us splashing black, we suddenly get some new options.
I decided to keep 4 Stoneforge Mystics for now, because with the regular D&T list we can Flickerwisp our own Stoneforge to grab something else, but that's not the case here and we really need STF to get some action going, 'cause these unequiped 2-power critters aren't gonna cut it on their own. I do miss the Mirran Crusader, but I don't know what to drop for it.
I opted for a mix of 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress in the SB since we'll be losing life with Bob already and it's scary to get into Tendrils / Emrakul range too soon.
Thoughts?
I'm aware that Arbiter seems like a nonbo with stoneforge half the time, but it honestly isn't. He's quite qood with vial and even without. The theory I had when i decided to add him to the deck was that he shores up one of our bad matches in elves and tnn decks while we also hardly hurting us at all with his ability. With vial you will often have two mana open to pay for mystic, the fact that he costs 2 instead of three also makes him easier to flash in over mindcensor. He is a great tool against elves, as he slows them down long enough for a jitte to get equiped to one of your creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme
Since i last posted i have actually cut the verdant catacombs in favor of a third karakas, so i will agree with you on that note :)
I mistyped my list by not including the stoneforge mystic so i have since edited it i apologize for the confusion, and i do run the standard equipment package of batterskull jitte/fire and ice.
And in response to sculler, the deck already has a good combo match up anyway, thalia does most of the work against most combo decks outside of elves ? If you lived long enough to flash in a sculler against belcher you've prolly already won that game or are flashing him in as a body to block goblins. Against sfm decks your are correct, i can snag their equipment in response to sfm (assuming they were able to search for 0.o lol), I'm not argueing the power of that play. I'm just saying lock pieces like thalia, arbiter, mindcensor, and land disruption are better for the deck. which is why i have sculler as a two of.
the final list i've settled on for now is below
creatures
4 Mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 bob
3 revoker
3 flickerwisp
2 mirran crusader
2 sculler
2 arbiter
1 mindcensor
Lands
4 marsh flats
4 ports
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
3 plains
3 karakas
artifacts
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 jitte
removal
4 swords to plowshares
lol, how is arbiter insane against elves. They honestly don't care to pay 6 for there natural order, ok they have GSZ but even for them they can most of the time pay 2 more.
I see! That clears up a lot. I get your point regarding Arbiter. I think the main argument would be that he'd be flashable with 2 Vial counters, which is interesting. I do think he's still a non-bo with our SFM package and the fact this version does run fetchlands. I just don't think we can really afford it. I can foresee some clunkiness for ourselves. Your list runs Flickerwisp and Mindcensor and Mirran Crusader, so you'd probably up your Vial to 3 at some point anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragamuffinvb
I do have to agree with Jitse. I don't think Arbiter will be enough to really stop Elves. Elves is just a horrible match up vs. D&T. We might be able to have a better match-up when we bring in the discard package. I think Sculler might even be better here. He'd enable us to take key pieces, like Natural Order or even Glimpse of if we're really lucky, their singleton Craterhoof Behemoth (chances are small, though).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitse
Regarding the match-up vs. combo; of course Thalia is amazing and awesome, but some decks can play around her, like Sneak and Show. I don't know ... I feel Sculler can be worth it for various reasons. Grabbing a crucial StPS, Bolt, Abrupt Decay or some other form of removal can be really awesome. Taking a Brainstorm can be devastating as well at certain points in the game. Taking combo pieces can buy us even more time. D&T and this deck won't be fast decks and I think Sculler can be a good way to buy time. Get a body into play and getting them off of keypieces.
I'd have to thoroughly playtest this version to see if I can maybe drop a few to open slots for other creatures.
i never said he was insane, i said he slows them down long enough for you to get a jitte online. with him the elves match up is 50/50 which is about as good as you could ask for. I've tested this matchup extensively, and if you don't think there is a diferrence between four for a natural order and paying six then you are mistaken. You could test him yourself if you don't believe me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitse
Does he slows you down long enough for you to get a jitte online? Is there a diferrence between two for a mystic and paying four?Quote:
Originally Posted by ragamuffinvb
Went 4-0 with this at the local today, 8-0 in games:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 4 Duress
Quick report from memory:
Round 1 vs. AnT - Game 1 I Inquisition away a Burning Wish, then take another with Sculler, then drop a Thalia and Mom. Game 2 I Duress an LED, top deck a Thalia, keep porting his land, then Mirran Crusader runs away with it.
Round 2 vs. RUG - Game 1 he mulls to 5 but I have Inquisition/Sculler for his only action. I think he manages to flip a Delver but I get SoFI on Thalia and blow up everything. Game 2 he actually has a hand, but I get an early Thalia, which unbeknownst to me kept him off Fire the whole game while he struggled to find a third land. He manages to land a Goyf and Forces RiP, but I have Crusader to vial in and break the stalemate.
Round 3 vs. Elves - This guy is way better at Magic than me, but after I take his Glimpse with T1 Inquisition, he puts me on something grave-based (probably TinFins), and Green Suns for Ooze T2. I manage to drop two moms and a Jitte, and push through a couple attacks to kill some Elves. I'm getting eaten by two Deathrites though, until I manage to land Crusader and get Jitte on him. Apparently I could have won a couple turns earlier than I did, because I'm dumb at maths. Game 2 I play Mom turn 1, Canonist T2, and Revoker T3 to turn off his Heritage Druid. From there Crusader with a Batterskull on it gets nuts.
Round 4 vs. Shardless BUG - Game 1 I think I just ran away with a SoFI-equipped Thalia, he apparently drew into all his Abrupt Decays and no business, but I had Mom online so they weren't doing him much good. Game 2 he gets DRS online, and an early Shardless into Visions, and I eventually drop to 1. Even though I've got the board clogged up with Mom/blockers, I've got a Bob in play and rip...land, then draw StP for the turn. I send my own Bob plowing and keep having to tap Mom to push Thalia + SoFI through his massive Goyf so I can keep killing his Deathrites. I keep expecting an Abrupt decay but he just draws discard and another Goyf so I manage enough blockers to get lethal through.
Split top 4 because I had some things to get done before meeting friends for dinner. Deck felt good all day though. I've never played D&T, but from watching it I feel like the two biggest weaknesses are lack of turn 1 disruption, and lack of draw, and this build addresses both of those, without having a ton of dead draws late in the game like more discard-heavy builds. It does have a weakness to resolved artifacts/enchantments, and is also somewhat weak to opposing -x/-x effects. Those are both fairly easy problems to solve with the right board if the meta demands it though. Overall I think a D&T hybrid is really the direction Deadguy wants to be going right now. The format is full of greedy manabases and having targeted discard on top of resource denial feels very powerful against most of the current DTB.
congrats on the finish, I'm glad the deck felt great for you the entire day. I will agree that a death and taxes shell is probably the best course going forward with the deck... the amount of disruption that thalia, wasteland, and port can provide is a huge tool paired with a powerful turn one vial. The only thing I would disagree with is the inclusion of main deck discard spells outside of sculler. I don't think turn one thoughtseize is better than turn one vial. The amount of disruption our land base and creatures can produce creates a virtual card advantage that favors us. Tun one vial is the most powerful play the deck can make, as our lands become free to disrupt our opponent and we play our creatures for free. When i first started brewing my list i started out with four main deck discard spells in thoughtseize and inquisition... as i started playing the list I would notice that more and more I would just end not playing the discard spell as there were more relevant things to do, like playing aether vial turn, or porting their land on turn two/ hard casting a thalia which doesn't jive as well with discard spells. I think sculler provides more then enough discard as he flows with the overall game plan better, and not running discard allows u to run more physical disruptive bodies like revoker, thalia, or stoneforge. That's just my two cents tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I do have a question though, how did you feel about maindeck swamps in your list?
Congrats on the win! Excellent! Regarding the resolved artifacts / enchantments; the regular D&T list has the same issue pre-boarding, so it's no surprise that this list runs into the same issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I agree with ragamuffinvb; I didn't feel the pre-board discard was really needed with Sculler here and I feel that it should be SB material, hence my list.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragamuffinvb
I also feel that basic Swamps aren't needed at all, especially in the version with Bob and Sculler main and discard in the SB. Besides, like I've said before; 3 Karakas really need to be in there.
I did some playtesting yesterday; transformed my D&T list to the Deadguy Ale & Taxes list I posted yesterday. I have to say I really like it a lot. Having Vial always on 2 enables our draws to be much more streamlined. I did miss the Flickerwisps, but it's just because this version has less evasion with the absensce of Flickerwisp and Aven Mindcensor. I therefore do feel we really need those Serra Avengers in there. I do feel we run less removal without Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp has a lot of utility going on and it sets a good clock, but I really don't know what to drop for it, since it isn't really a tax-like-effect anyways. I also feel I should at least run 1 to 2 Mirran Crusader, but will have to see what I would have to drop for it.
The thing I did notice and think is a shame is that we're much more sensitive to Stifle and Wasteland again. Basically every land in our deck has Wasteland or Stifle-target printed on them, haha. It's part of just not running the mono white list, but it doesn't mean it isn't frustrating. :wink:
I'm not gonna lie, i feel like you could honestly just run three bobs and three sculler instead of the playset of four if your looking for room for flickerwisps. Bob as a three of has been the perfect number for me, as many of the other creatures are just much more important to get online and going like thalia, revoker, and stoneforge. Usually I've resolved the lock on my opponent is when i vial in the Bob, in testing this has always been the final nail in the coffin. I'm running flickerwisp as a three of now as I've cut the singleton mangara entirely from the list. Flickerwisp is just an underwhelmin in terms of the power and options he provides.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme
I disagree on the discard issue. I think if you want to have a chance against fast combo like TES/Belcher/TinFins, you need to be doing something productive on turn 1. With Wastes and Ports, Sculler is also not necessarily a guaranteed turn 2 play. I don't think we want to be running so much discard that we have a bunch of dead draws late in the game, but enough that we can reasonably expect to mulligan into it if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme
[QUOTE=Richard Cheese;776393]I disagree on the discard issue. I think if you want to have a chance against fast combo like TES/Belcher/TinFins, you need to be doing something productive on turn 1. With Wastes and Ports, Sculler is also not necessarily a guaranteed turn 2 play. I don't think we want to be running so much discard that we have a bunch of dead draws late in the game, but enough that we can reasonably expect to mulligan into it if neccesary
I would politely disagree on that point. I think running out aether vial is the most productive thing this deck can do against any deck, even against combo having the ability to play thalia for free, bounce her with karakas then vial her back in upon resolution of the spell their using to kill her is so backbreaking for any combo deck... running four discard gives you eight dead draws mid-game when you combine them with aether vial. You do have a chance against fast combo since we run thalia. Tinfins is like what.... .001 of the current meta ? Belcher dies to every other deck playing force of will, also dies to a turn two thalia, as does tes. If you get killed turn one by any of these decks they had a god draw on you, nothing i'd be too concerned about. Land disruption followed by thalia and revoker is the perfect way to combat tes and tinfins, it plays better to the overall strategy to the deck and allows you to get your vial active immediately... since belcher doesnt play land u should just be focused on getting thalia plus revoker down as their rituals provide exact mana half the time. If they kill you turn one it happens, but it won't happen often. Hedging against it is i think is just unnecessary
I get your point. I think this does go for TinFins and Belcher a bit, I guess (in case of bad luck, really, I wouldn't worry too much about those decks), TES/ANT not so much per sé, since it's slower anyways. I get your reasoning, but this is exactly why I've opted for discard in the SB. I mean, D&T prays most upon the fair decks in the meta and has a decent chance vs. 'regular' combo. However, insanely fast combo is gonna be a coin flip, most of the time. For those match-ups, you bring in the discard and other options. I guess it's preference, seeing as I don't want to pick up too much discard vs. fair decks, because I don't want to pay 1 black + colorless to fire off a Thoughtseize while I'd rather be Port-locking and having Thalia out, which in 80% of our match-ups is the most important thing we should do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
With combo, you board out Mom and your StPS, most of the time. So, having lost those 4 StPS opens up 4 other slots for instants/sorceries that you have to pay extra for with Thalia. Running 4 discard and 4 StPS main kinda messes with our Port-lock-plan.
Yeah, maybe, cutting Bob to 3 is a possibility, but then I've got a spot for 1 Flickerwisp. Which means I would need to cut down other creatures as well if I wanted to get at least 3 Flickerwisp.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragamuffinvb
By the way, I really don't mind having 2 Bobs out. Of course, it's a risk, but the fuel we get is insane, haha.
I have abandoned this deck because of the bad matchup against anything running Punishing Fire. Now with TNN everywhere this deck gets alot of collateral damage from any -X/-X spells. How do you see your Matchups against such decks (TNN-Blade and Jund especially)?
I went 6-3 with it at SCG Vegas OpenQuote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
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