Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! - Join us over at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:
@Worldspine Wurm: It's pretty much dedicated hate for the SneakShow matchup.
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Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! - Join us over at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:
@Worldspine Wurm: It's pretty much dedicated hate for the SneakShow matchup.
I also think of it as the anti-Toxic Deluge card. So for various BUG/Jund decks it's a good board card to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Damn you Julian. My brain's now playing "Hit the road Jack" nonstop :'(
Against BUG Delver/Team America style decks, Sylvan Library wins games. That's a matchup I've played literally hundreds of times, and I'm telling you, with the way those games grind out, card selection and some timely extra card draw are just huge. Just on Friday I won a match against BUG Delver on the back of a Library. Paid a total of 12 life and got nearly all of it back with Ooze and Deathrite. Finding Abrupt Decay for 4 life is always better than just dying to an insect, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
Sneak and Show, for the simple reason that it invalidates Emrakul. Also not a bad NO/GSZ target against the white Blade decks. Personally, I don't like it much, since it's only relevant in a very narrow set of circumstances--it would have been better in an older Summoning Pact build--but a lot of people who know the deck perfectly well do seem to like it, so it's worth trying out to see if it works for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by mariobross
Wurm vs. Plowshares decks? wut?
Your input was extremely insightful. Thank you for clearing that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I'm just confused. Why play Wurm vs. StP decks? It's great against S&T and against Decay/Toxic Deluge type setups and is roughly equivalent to Progenitus everywhere else. Except against StP, where it just gets killed unceremoniously and just isn't all that scary for how much it costs to NO/GSZ into play. StP decks are full stop Wurm's worst matchup, so why are you recommending it for those?
Men, these questions about wurm are starting to seem a bit dumb (without the intention to offend anyone). It really is just obvious: wurm is good against emrakul and against decks running board wipes but not swords to plowshares/terminus (mainly B/G/x). Spending or not a sideboard slot for him is meta call/personal preference. Maybe something about wurm should be added to the front page so people stop asking why some lists run him?
SCG Indianapolis (2nd SCG Open this weekend; not covered unfortunately) has twice the number of Elvish Visionary (16) in the Top8 than it has Brainstorms (8). :eek::eek::eek:
/Edit: Top4 is 4 Elves.
What? That's cool. How big is the event?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
:eek::eek::eek: Great! Hopefully we will have new sideboard choices to argue about...
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...ion=Show+Decks
Oh my god what is energy storm even?
It's funny to see that the three "regular" lists in that top 4 each ran 4 NO. I was surprised to see another list running Probes though.
Either the Probes & Blood Moons can actually be a thing, or it was a rather Elf-friendly meta. I do like the idea of peeking at your opponent's hand right before you NO to see if it's safe to do so.
Energy Storm seems pretty awesome, it pretty much singlehandedly shuts down RUG. The current oracle text states that instants and sorceries don't do any damage at all anymore (so not even to creatures). Cradle makes it's cumulative upkeep easier to deal with. Too bad it doesn't work against storm though and we can't tutor it.
I wonder against which MU's other then any UR Delver variants and Burn, obviously, (and perhaps LED Dredge to shut down Firestorm) he'd side it in.
Am I the only one seeing 1 Sylvan Caryatid in TWO of the Elves sideboards in the Top8? Must be a mistake, right?
Almost certainly Sylvan Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
That's what I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Hi everyone,
after a break, i am also back with elves. Sleeved the deck up last week and conquered top 4 in a small (15 player) local tournament.
After the warm up i played another local event (32 players) yesterday going 5-1-0, 2nd place. It was a "Eternal Prague" Trial so we played six rounds. One more player and i had earned 1 Bye...
Matchups:
R1: 2:0 vs Death & Taxes (Ruric fought some flyers :laugh: )
R2: 1:2 vs Miracle (last game only one life was left...)
R3: 2:1 vs Team America (Packmaster!)
R4: 2:1 vs Miracle (tight as always)
R5: 2:1 vs BUGw Control (full with the new Delve Spells, but Packmaster won G3 alone)
R6: 2:0 vs Affinity (he never had a chance against my miracle hate)
In a meta filled with lots of D&T, Miracle and BUG Elves was a decent choice, because i was prepared to fight miracle and other grindy matchups.
Decklist:
Maindeck - see Julian's latest list with all the grindy stuff. A last minute swap was -1 Craterhoof (cause i also played successfully with only one in the past), -1 fetch and +1 Ruric with +1 Taiga.
Sideboard:
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
The bad ass ogre was good enough on it own, won me a matchup vs D&T flyers (i know very uncommon scenario), was able to pressure a matchup against miracle and was generally a good feeling to have him as a maindeck weapon if i face some combo decks.
With the grindy Packmaster (i really like her), it curved out smoothly: 2 mana Ooze, 4 mana, Packmaster, 6 mana Ruric, 8 mana Craterhoof
All have standalone power and can turn over some games.
As other of you already mentioned, against miracle you must grind them out, 2-3 power after each wipe is enough. I really liked the 2nd Arbor (hold up fetches) and Pendelhaven here. I felt that Pendelhaven is one of the key cards here. If i got the land early enough, it really helped to kill miracle fast enough between the common removal waves.
The 2nd Reclamation Sage also performed well enough; because each body/beater counts (compared to another decay). Null Rod and Needle are common tools and i like them paired to gain advantage in other matchups (needle won me a game against Deed).
Wilt-Leaf Liege is a tech against BUG, which supports all other grindy matchup. In germany, most players know, that Grafdigger's Cage is a good weapon against elves - so the common NO + Progenitus etc. plan will be easily stopped. Maybe we see some other graveyard hate pieces (who doesnt affect elves), in a meta full with Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise...
So I ran the following list at the SCG Open in NJ this weekend. After starting off 4-0 (including 2 miracles wins!), I got a draw against Gerard Fabiano in the 5th round, luck turned against me and I ended up 5-3-1 to barely make the cash. I played the following list:
Creatures (31)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Dryad Arbor
Lands (18)
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Pendelhaven
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
Spells (11)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Sideboard
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
My match results:
2-2 Miracles
1-0 BG Rock
1-0-1 BG Delver
0-1 Jund
1-0 Something I forget. Probably another BUG deck.
Some overall thoughts on the tournament:
- The list (Julian's) felt really strong, but I still go back and forth on the Packmaster. I actually like it most in the BUG matchup, but I'm not impressed in the miracles match-up which is the match-up I want the card to cover. I'm not sure what I'm going to do for the next tourney, but I feel like the other 59/60 are what I want. I'm considering adding the 4th NO and putting a real dedicated anti-miracles card in that SB slot.
- I absolutely love Lantto's strategy against miracles. My ideal board state is Wirewood, Quirion Ranger, Dryad Arbor, Pendelhaven, Needle on Top, and a Sylvan Library (and with an AD in hand is icing on the cake). I won game 3 against miracles when he was at 2 life and had Jace and like 4 cards in hand, by going EOT fetch Arbor and then attack and pump with Pendelhaven. Felt amazing. I'm considering not bringing in the NO-Pro package since it's a liability.
- My match against Gerard Fabiano (playing BUG Delver) was a feature match (my first match on camera though it didn't air), and they were great games and he was a great opponent. The first game I forced him to use his resources on my terms, which allowed me to resolve a NO for the win. During game 3, time was getting low and I think he had 1 creature and was at very low life (3-5), while I had 2 guys and a natural order. During the 2nd and 4th turns of extra turns, any mana source would have allowed me to win the game. Even though we drew, we talked about the match afterward and he showed me he would have had the mana to hardcast FoW next turn. So it really would have been anyone's game at that point. Very fun match.
- I played against Rudy Briksza in (I think) the 4th round. In game 1, he had a board of Delver, Deathrite and Goyf, and just resolved a Treasure Cruise. He was tapped out, so I draw and cast Glimpse of Nature. The way he says OK tell me I can do what I want this turn, so I being to combo off. At some point he calls a judge over. He tells the judge that I missed the draw trigger from Glimpse when I played a creature. The judge tells him it's a beneficial trigger for me, so he can choose whether I have it but it isn't a warning or anything. I don't draw and we continue. At another point, he tells me I missed more draw triggers. I was trying to remember them, but I had played two Glimpses and we are now at the point where I probably have over 20 creatures in play, have activated 4 Wirewoods, have had a 10-15 minute single turn, and was playing off 3 hours sleep and not eating in 7 hours. He calls a judge and I tell the judge that I honestly don't know but that he's probably right. The judge tells him again, he chooses but it's not a warning. He appeals the the head judge who talks to me off to the side, then Rudy. He walks back to his seat and says "Go." I ask him what happened, and he said nothing is going to happen. I finally draw a NO (because I was not sandbagging him, I really hadn't draw a way to kill him yet) and finish him off. We go to game two and I smash him with a turn 4 NO I believe. His friend comes over and he quickly comments how I got the perfect draw. When your opponent clearly tries to scumbag you and get a win off a rules violation when they were clearly beneficial triggers (I wasn't decking myself :tongue:) and he was clearly going to lose, and then you smash him 2-0, that's what magic is all about.
- One fun highlight came against eventual 4th place finisher Steve Guillerm playing miracles. It was one of those miracles matches where they play well and have control of the match the whole time. The way he said "Yes" to my actions was almost making me feel bad for wasting his time with the formalities. But I'm one of those players that wants to play every bit of a match even when I'm losing, because I don't get to play much and want as much experience each time I do get to play. Anyway, I think he has Jace, G. Cage and I think a top in play with 2 cards in hand. He passes the turn and I go for the hail mary NO assuming he has a terminus in time even if I get a Progenitus. You caught it right? I realize there is a Cage in play as soon as I finish saying NO and put the card on the table. Just as I feel like the worst player ever, I look up and my opponent is exiling a card. He casts FoW pitching FoW. He puts his cards away, looks up and says "We're both really stupid ya know." I say, "Yeah, Cage." We both laugh and he finishes me at some point by casting an Asian, foil Entreat. At least I got killed by something pretty.
- After my match with Gerard, I turned around and saw Ross Merriam. I had thought to myself that if I happen to bump into him, I was going to have him sign an elf card I had in my binder and tell him to keep up with the great writing. We end up talking Elves with some other person and we ended up agreeing on all the strategy points we were talking about. Great to meet another cool Elves player. (Julian don't be surprised if you get asked to sign an elf at GP NJ :smile:)
- In a weirdly masochistic way, I enjoy the post-sideboard miracles games. They can be really fun and skill-intensive. But the pre-board games are so upsetting that I don't want to ever see it in a tournament. Ever.
TIL : When you want to tell Julian to fuck off, you simply say "Go Lose to Miracle".
Julian list is sound and tested. Im so glad so many elves decks made Top 4. They covered the wrong open IMHO.
Im curious about what Julian will sleeve for NJ....!? :D
Ross: any chance you will do an elves primer on SCG before the GP in NJ?Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
Dredge/Reanimator decks seem to be making a little comeback and I am having trouble getting around them with just discard. Right now I have a trop in my main for 2 swan songs in the sideboard. I was thinking about switching it to a savanna and replacing the Swan songs with rest in peace.
Just wanted to get some thoughts on it
Actually just talked with my editor about this. I've started working on it and it will definitely go up before the GP so watch out for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duker99
As for Swan Song, I've never liked the card. Against most combo decks, the plan is to trade a lot of resources with your disruption and win due to the fact that your combo pieces still attack when you don't have enough to go off properly. Giving your opponent a 2/2 is a huge roadblock for this plan. If you really want more graveyard hate I think Tormod's Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb is the best option since they don't affect your Deathrites too much and you really just need a card that bridges you to Ooze or Natural Order so the powerful immediate effect of the artifacts is effective.
I think the case for Crypt over Spellbomb is quite compelling. Being 0 mana still lets you develop your board early for a smooth transition into the midgame. I think that is worth eschewing the capacity to cycle spellbomb. I also like both options more than surgical extraction since they get around a street wraith. Don't think there's any other potent graveyard hate we can play out there, since we already play DRS and ooze.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
From when I tried Militant: You absolutely want your grave hate to be Surgical, Crypt or Faerie Macabre. This deck can do all manner of broken things, but it needs at least one turn of setup. A grave hate card that requires mana interferes with that setup time. That's ok against Manaless, slower Reanimator draws and bad draws from LED Dredge, but if Reanimator drew a fast hand or LED didn't brick completely, you're probably just dead with hate that costs mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by starfox444
@Ross
How do you sideboard usually? It's interesting to see you're still on the 4NO plan while Julian is moving away from NO. I still play a 4 NO build so your findings would probably be more applicable to whatever I want to be doing.
@MD.Ghost
How has Ruric served you vs. non-combo decks? Find yourself GSZing for him or do you just go for the Packmaster in those MUs?
I know I was not asked, but I love theory-crafting :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
The question that stands in the room is "against which decks Natural Order is king?". If combo is aware of NO & Glimpse as your most dangerous cards and either runs Discard or Counterspells for your Sorceries, while you are most likely the slower combo-deck anyways, the plan to "race" combo decks with the "green Tinker" alone is flawed. Against Aggro-control or pure Control, Natural Order is a critical play considering all the non-creature counters in the format, the possible 2-for-1 and the constant pressure of board-sweepers & creature removal seriously harming your mana-development on two levels (Cradle + manadorks). At the moment, I feel the last remaining matchups which NO really shines are the very few matches against aggro such as Burn, Jund, Goblins, D&T, etc. which we already dominate due to superior mana, consistency via GSZ + BFF-Team, perma-fog via Wirewood Symbiote or Quirion + Arbor and last but not least, Packmaster.
I guess the situations/decks/creatures you want NO against/for is on a current, remarkable low and you have to evaluate NO also on the ability to grab silver bullets like Ooze, WRP or Sage or the possibility to sidestep the tutor aspect by running more Sages, WRP, etc. mainboard.
@Graveyard-Hate: Agree with Zombie, if Deathrite and Ooze aren't fast enough, than use the named :0: Mana-Stuff. I personally hope, that elves didn't face a meta with too much GY-strategies (the real one, not the delve-stuff), because if you wan't to hate fast combos without a blue deck, you will need more than enough slots...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
@Zombie/Ruric: As far as i remember i didn't Zenith for Ruric. Against D&T i used a NO (because Hoof wasn't deadly enough and he has flyers and also a jitte in his hand), i searched for Ruric and he won me the game in an uncommon style against D&T (luck was on my side, because he didn't drew a karakas).
Against Miracle i hardcasted a Ruric, which was good, because normally you can't use the full mana power of elves against Miracles thanks to Terminus etc. As i wrote the last year, we grind against miracle, but if we are too slow we will face entreat (or a cb-lock, with jace etc.) and it is gg. So each little point of damage counts. If they hide a terminus (and you knew it) you can also use Ruric as a bait for six damage instead of one.
Otherwise i "Hoofed" or used Packmaster if i could. It's basically a question of: can we combo it out with Glimpse/NO etc. or is the Combo-Plan under heavy disruption (Removal, Discard etc.) - Plan A is always the Combo, but against some decks or situations we gladly use a backup: Packmaster
As i mentioned, a lot of good european players can bring Grafdigger's Cage and basically knew how to play against Elves (it's DtB so no more understatement like the last years). It's interesting that the good old 4th NO + Progenitus (and Worldspine Worm) tech works again and again at SCG.
Personally i feel that i only swap to Worldspine Worm if BUG will stay on the top and Sneak & Show also rises to an more than annoying factor. With Council's Judgment and Miracle as enemy Number one, Progenitus isn't attractive enough for me. Sure the Hydra can win against D&T, but this is already a very good matchup. Against other fair decks, a grindy Maindeck (see Julian's/Lantto's list) should be good enough.
EDIT: Lemnear was faster :tongue:
I really like packmaster but i've considered running the 4th NO MD so I can have a SB slot for Worldspine Wurm. Opinions? Here is my current 75 which i've been having a lot of success with. I just like the 4th NO maybe because I never feel bad if I draw a NO.
Creature: 29
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
Other: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Land: 20
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
I think Natural Order is the 2nd best card in the deck (After Gaea's Cradle) and after spending so many games hoping to draw it decided to MD the 4th copy and haven't looked back. I have had a few games where I overload on kill spells but if I were to trim either of them at this point it would be Glimpse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
My SBing philosophy is minimalist relative to most Elves players. I try to only board out a few Elves, rarely more than 4, and never more than 6. I trim Glimpse pretty regularly, but always leave at least 6 kill spells. The only matchup where I shave Natural Orders is against Delver decks, because their cheap counters and mana disruption make a 4 mana sorcery a liability and being able to cut a NO target is helpful.
Are you keeping the 4th in against Miracles and bringing in a Progenitus as well? And when you shave a NO and a NO target in the Delver matchups, are you bringing in any SB targets there or basically leaving yourself with the 1 CH as a potential instant kill if the opportunity arises? Thanks for your input.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
Do you have the same SB strategy against BUG and RUG delver?
I used to keep only 1 craterhoof and 2 NO vs RUG, to side in only decays (and meekstone when I was playing it, and ooze if not MD)
vs BUG, I used to have the 4 NO + behemoth + proge post side, and shave some heritage/sage/nettle.
I always wondered if it was wise to keeep the same strategy OTP and OTD (like NO should be better OTP). I never wanted discard to not loose to waste if I want to T1 seize. Who is playing discard in delver MUs and do you like it? OTP and OTD?
Wait, people SB out NO against Delver? I usually side out the glimpse package because all their removal makes it hard to have a respectable board presence for a lethal hoof so I just use NO+Progenitus. What's your plan if you SB out NO?
I don't think I would board Discard vs RUG/UWR Delver, the lifeloss by Thoughtseize is relevant and they have tons of cantrips and Brainstorm (-> resiliency). Never liked Cabal Therapy vs Canadian for example (had the same experience in Nic Fit kind of)
Vs BUG Delver you could board in 2-3 Thoughtseize since they don't run Burn and then take away crushing cards a la Toxic Deluge (same as Shardless). I also think Ruric Thar is quite strong against BUG in general. Decays are really important vs BUG these days because almost every bug Sideboard plays Grafdigger's Cage.
I agree and would keep Glimpse vs Delver strategies and rather cut NO if necessary, it's always fine to play with 3/2 NO vs blue decks. My general understanding is: cut some Glimpses vs White decks (Canonist), keep it in most of the time vs non-white.
I wonder why people are beginning to cut Nettle Sentinel down as well. In my experience he's an important aggro/racing card as a 2/2 and survives some stuff. I won several games with Nettle beatdowns, he's so good :)
I agree with this. Glimpse plays a number of roles; one of which is digging into answers or more gas. It's also a small investment if it does eat a Counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
I know there's a pimp decks thread but I wanted to post this here as well because I've been playing Elves for 6+ years and it's easily my favorite deck so....here is my elf deck!
I have 2 more Chinese foil Deathrite Shamans coming in the mail so i just put in a foil llanowar and a 4th Heritage Druid instead. I choose the make the 4th one (signed one) English because it was given to me by someone I'm really close with. I still need to finish S-Chinese foiling out the lands (it's hard finding S-chinese foil Dryad Arbors....)
Oh and sideboard, the Duresses are supposed to be Thoughtseize but i've been too lazy to find and I have a deal coming in for a playset of S-chinese foil Cabal therapy.
So much work to do but school is being dumb and expensive...
http://i.imgur.com/LBRibQb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VbwTAa1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5ew82kA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VSanGRo.jpg
Portal NO is unacceptable, no matter how pimp. Visions looks so much better it's not funny.
I +1 that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
On the other hand, good job. I've put the foiling of Elves on hold since I need more money to afford my trip to UMF in march :(
Nice foils. I am only halfway through my main deck being foiled. Dreading the cradles, but fetches are easier with khans now. Rocking the Japanese foils because that is the most common here.
But visions can only be found in T-chinese. I can only read S-chinese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Back from Ovino. Missed Top8 in the Big Legacy Trial in 10th place, then 7-2'ed the Legacy main event the next day.
Trying to finish a much bigger report in time but I guess you guys are most interested in my list right now:
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windwept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
SB:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte (will be Null Rod from now on)
1 Sylvan Library
Matchups during the main event:
R1: Elves, 1-2 L
R2: Miracles, 2-1 W
R3: Deathblade, 1-2 L
R4: Opp didn't show up because there was a 2h delay
R5: Jund, 2-1 W
R6: Junk, 2-0 W
R7: RUG Delver, 2-0 W
R8: Burn, 2-0 W
R9: Burn, 2-0 W
7-2 in the end. Because they shortene'd the tournament due to reasons I'd explain sometime else, the 10th round was not being played so I finished outside the prices by tie-breakers.
What a gross event. That's so unfortunate for everybody. You have my condolences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23