[Deck] Merfolk

I played the mirror match and had a significant edge there as Grim Lavamancer plays a bit like Visara there. He also helps you to trade Merfolks VS Goyfs and gives you quite some reach. Against Goblins / Zoo Kira + Lavamancer is pretty devastating.

My play experience there was that it is pretty hard to lose the mirror with this build which is pretty important at the moment. Lavamancer eats little guys and makes your guys stronger by threatening to kill bigger creatures when they block.

Bolt is there because it kills Wild Nacatl, Goblin Lackey and Grim Lavamancer which were the most problematic creatures to face when playing Merfolk. This Ur build has a better game against tribal decks which seem to be pretty wide spread at the moment. It definitely isn't tweaked in any way, I just wanted to point out that while splashing black or white gives you quite some options. The traditional red splash in fish decks for burn is also very viable here in my oppinion.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Really? Stifle will never hit tendrils? I've played against storm plenty of times where all my mana denial spells and wastelands forces them to go off with 0 mana floating and at maybe around 10 from a few turns of swinging. These situations the AdN player doesn't draw the absolute nuts (initial mana source, successive mana sources to hit at least 4 mana + however much they need to tutor for the tendrils itself with an extra mana and one of their duress effects). In theory it sounds like Stifle shouldn't touch Tendrils, but in theory all storm players say that they can play around Daze and Spell Pierce and Cursecatcher very easily. In practice storm combo has to go off from bad situations and just hope to get lucky with what they draw. You have enough pressure to not let them draw 20 cards off of AdNauseum.

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Seems like cursecatcher stops the combo cold there?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Really? Stifle will never hit tendrils? I've played against storm plenty of times where all my mana denial spells and wastelands forces them to go off with 0 mana floating and at maybe around 10 from a few turns of swinging. These situations the AdN player doesn't draw the absolute nuts (initial mana source, successive mana sources to hit at least 4 mana + however much they need to tutor for the tendrils itself with an extra mana and one of their duress effects). In theory it sounds like Stifle shouldn't touch Tendrils, but in theory all storm players say that they can play around Daze and Spell Pierce and Cursecatcher very easily. In practice storm combo has to go off from bad situations and just hope to get lucky with what they draw. You have enough pressure to not let them draw 20 cards off of AdNauseum.

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Cursecatcher plays both the role of an ever increasing clock thanks to lords and plays very well with waste and daze. Outside vial hands, how often do you tap out during turns 1-3? I know I sure as hell do. You not tapping out gives the storm player time to find said protection, because you are not dealing as much damage as you would have if stifle was cursecatcher. You can generally expect catcher to get in there for 5 damage, which is huge IMO.

The drop in threat density from running 4 fewer folk i won't even go into... Run stifle and cursecatcher if you must, but leave the versitle catcher in

I addressed some points concerning Stifle in the report-thread. I'll repeat them here since apparently Stifle over Cursecatcher seems to be the most controversial thing about my list:

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Originally Posted by diffy

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Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox

How was stifle for you? I've dropped it as it is totally dead in many situations. I hate the tempo loss of leaving mana open and hoping...

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After drawing my first few hands with the deck, I was a bit worried about Stifle conflicting with stuff too (Stefan can attest to this), however, come actual tournament play and after getting a feel for how the different matchups should play out, it turned out to be a non-issue:

• On the first turn, Stifle only conflicts with AEther Vial in this list, thanks to the absence of Cursecatcher - and playing that AEther Vial on the second turn isn't that bad since you're planning on keeping it at two counters anyway.
• In many matchups, you want to keep one mana open anyway due to absolutely not being able to afford loosing some of your precious threats to Daze.
• You don't have to keep mana open only because you're holding a Stifle and might miss a fetchland when tapping out on the second turn: Stifle will always find a target - and sometimes that targets is even juicier than a fetchland to begin with (Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives or even a greedy Survival of the Fittest player come to mind).
  Knowing when, with which hands and against which decks to go for the Stifle/Waste-Manadenial plan at all costs and against which decks/with which hands/when you can let slip a Stifle on fetchland is simply something you have to learn with this list - and once you've got a feel for that, Stifle won't really conflict with your board-development plans any more.
• Furthermore, do keep in mind that Stifle will get you all that potential tempo loss back in no time (with interests) if it hits. I'll gladly say it once again and once more: Stifle/Wasteland is just that strong.

Looking back on the day, Stifle was a good choice: people didn't expect it and it always caused opponents to wince when it came - which is always a good sign.

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To add some more to the Stifle/Cursecatcher discussion:

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Originally Posted by Justin

Another cool thing about maindeck Stifle, is that you can use it for mana denial and play Merfolk as more of a tempo deck.

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This. Exactly this.
In my opinion Stifle+Wasteland is one of the strongest combination of cards available in Legacy right now - so you'd better have a pretty good reason for not including it, when primo it's in your colours and segundo it fits your gameplan very well too.

People in this thread seem to be pretty sure about Merfolk not being able to 'allow itself the tempo-disadvantage of Stifle' and that 'Cursecatcher is a relevant body'. From this I deduce that people are playing this deck as a Tribal/Aggro Deck with Islandwalk and Force of Will rather than as a blue Tempo deck with a good clock.
However, the former option, at least from what I know, is just playing too fair, especially when compared to the alternatives available in the Aggro- and Tribal-sector. Zoo is way faster and has actual removal. Elves have random 'I-Win' buttons and Forestwalk (which is better than Islandwalk). Goblins have massive card advantage and more tribal synergies.
When adopting the later philosophy, however, this changes. All of a sudden you stop being a bad Aggro deck and start being an interesting Tempo deck (trading some control elements for more aggressiveness). And you gain unfairness which is always a good thing in an unfair format.

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Originally Posted by People

Cursecatcher is better in the Storm Combo matchup

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Playing a card over some other card in Merfolk because that card is better in the Storm Combo matchup is not a very strong point in my book: Storm Combo is played diminishingly little, no matter where you live, and your matchup is already solid enough - no matter whether you play Cursecatcher or Stifle.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

The drop in threat density from running 4 fewer Folk I won't even go into...

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Why not go into this? I'm playing a pair of Kira, Great-Glass Spinner in addition to the 16 good Merfolk (Silvergill Adept, Lord of Atlantis, Coralhelm Commander, Merrow Reejerey).
This gives my list a total of 18 creatures which is only two less than conventional lists. Furthermore, Kira reduces the need for mass-creatures due to disabling most spotremoval. I also generally need less creatures to get in there for some damage due to having removal for blockers in Swords to Plowshares and due to more creatures with evasion (Kira has flying).
I don't see a drop in threat density there.
Especially not when considering that Cursecatcher is not a threat unless you have another threat (i.e. a Lord) to accompany him. Handle the other threat and Cursecatcher returns to non-relevancy - all while making you more prone to mass removal.

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Originally Posted by Muradin

So recently I've decided to build a second Legacy deck again after having sold all cards but my favourite deck. I searched for something that beats Merfolk and blue control lists while having a solid game against aggro and not auto-losing to combo. Another factor in my decission is that I wanted to run Kira, because she is quite good and our dog is called Kira as well. I came up with this list that has been phenomenal in testing for me so far:

Bloody Merfolk

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Submerge


My boarding plans so far in playtesting were like the following, however I am fairly unexpierienced with Merfolk so I am not sure whether this was any good:

Goblins:
-4 Daze
+4 BeB

Zoo:
-4 Daze
-4 Force
+4 BeB
+4 Submerge

Bant:
-4 Bolt
+4 Submerge

Combo:
-4 Bolt
+4 Spell Pierce

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This list is really interesting, and I've tested it with some games on MWS. Lavamancer is phenomenal, he can both increase the denial shooting to birds or hierarchs, increase the race in an impressive way by dealing 4-6 damage alone while the fishes take the rest, as do combat damage tricks. Main problem is, we don't have any way to get card advantage; neither card quality. You don't play Standstill; we could use Brainstorm as a junk filter, but I don't now if it's worth shaving all those 4x that could work as 3-ofs (1 Kira, 1 Bolt, 1 Daze, 21th Land) for them, since this deck seldom remains mana open in the first turns. Hell, surely it still would be a decent remedy to the horrible late-game draws it seems to have (vials and always those fucking force of will without pitch..and they're also carrying on a crusade to have it banned, lol.)
Personally I've found myself opening too many 2cc drops and plus only; I think it could be ok to play 2 cursecatchers, to increase the 1 drops, and to maximize a bit Reejerey's triggers with ease. Curving more regularly is good.

@ the sb: this deck suffers hard-control Landstill (the latest UBg particularly), if it does not hit a vial. Basically you're tapping yourself out to play a sorcery-speed threat, and they just destroy it with a single black in the form of innocent blood or ghastly demise. They also have Deed, and Loaming Wasteland which are dangerous to such a build with only 2-3 islands.
Wouldn't it be good to pack a 2 (3)of Blood Moon? It is gamebreaking against them, as well as the plethora of pseudo-tempo decks still alive. Also, it would be another bomb against Countertops, if the matchup isn't already interesting..
I see what the objetion could be, though: they expect you to Wasteland them, so they're fetching basics. While this is true, we should remember that them fetching basics is actually a real hurt for them, because they're having hard times casting both Goyfs and dazes and stp and such more than once a turn, as David Price pointed out in that famous reply on Birklyd's article. Moon is also a solid tech from Ur Dreadstill, which happens to run our same manabase roughly, so I think it's doable. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by diffy

Why not go into this? I'm playing a pair of Kira, Great-Glass Spinner in addition to the 16 good Merfolk (Silvergill Adept, Lord of Atlantis, Coralhelm Commander, Merrow Reejerey).
This gives my list a total of 18 creatures which is only two less than conventional lists. Furthermore, Kira reduces the need for mass-creatures due to disabling most spotremoval. I also generally need less creatures to get in there for some damage due to having removal for blockers in Swords to Plowshares and due to more creatures with evasion (Kira has flying).
I don't see a drop in threat density there.
Especially not when considering that Cursecatcher is not a threat unless you have another threat (i.e. a Lord) to accompany him. Handle the other threat and Cursecatcher returns to non-relevancy - all while making you more prone to mass removal.

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I started out with UG merfolk, running the standard 16 with 4 goyf. I absolutely hated the random "I cannot play silvergill in an otherwise awesome hand thanks to only having 16 merfolk in the list" so that is where a lot of my hesitation comes from. I love stifle, but in my eyes catcher makes the cut before it in this deck. I do however agree this is a tempo based deck that occasionally gets by on tribal isynergies.

My main argument was intended for the storm matchup, where even that little bit of damage sure feels like a nice cushion. And regardless of the opponent, I love top decking catcher with a rejerrey on the field, if not two. I just have good asscociations with t1 vial/catcher as opposed to t1 sit-and-wait. If you are telling me the introduction of Coralhelm has indeed made the sit and wait plan better than I remember, I'll go test it.

Hello, I am new to the forums and I am looking for a little bit of help. I have played Merfolk since my somewhat recent debut to Legacy and a few days ago I played against dredge for the first time. Man that deck sure is "diffrent" to play against. Anyway I lost horribly and I was wondering if anyone could perhaps give me some tips and tricks against that matchup? I sideboarded 3 Relics and 1 Crypt.

Cursecatcher is invaluable in this matchup. Sacrifice him to counter dread returns or cabal therapies if there are Bridge from Belows in the graveyard. Also use your counters on either discard outlets(Putrid Imp) early ( turns 1 or 2) or draw spells when they play them. Do not play standstill unless you're very far ahead. They don't need to cast many spells, and can often make you crack it even if they have no board presence when you cast it and you have 2 or 3 fish.

Esqulax, proxy up a typical dredge deck. Goldfish it (play it against nobody at all) until you have the basic function of the deck understood. If you think it is different to play against it, try playing with it! Once you have that down, you want to play it against your Merfolk deck a few times. Then explore some of the defense cards Merfolk has available to hate it out and figure out how to best use them. Just the same, let me give you a brief rundown of popular hate cards and their uses.

Cursecatcher: Sacrifice him to remove all copies of Bridge from Below from your opponent's graveyard. You will need to actually counter something, so it may actually be one of your own spells you counter. But it will be worth it.

Tormod's Crypt - This is your basic hate card for graveyards. You probably want a few of these. Dredge will very likely have a way of dealing with it like Pithing Needle so you want at minimum one other hate card.

Relic of Progenitus is my personal choice not because it is perfect against this opponent, but because it is very powerful against a variety of opponents. It is even good against Tarmogoyfs (though not great).

Faerie Macabre - Even if you have no black mana, this could be the best weapon against the crazy turn 1 wins dredge is occasionally capable of. You never need to cast this spell anyway.

Don't be afraid to counter spells, especially on turn 1. Much of what that deck does is not actually casting spells, so counter what you can.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by diffy

Playing a card over some other card in Merfolk because that card is better in the Storm Combo matchup is not a very strong point in my book: Storm Combo is played diminishingly little, no matter where you live, and your matchup is already solid enough - no matter whether you play Cursecatcher or Stifle.

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Since when Storm combo is a good MU?

If you're playing Catcher, Daze, Pierce and Force it's bad, I don't see the MU becoming good by cutting the Catcher...

Not to mention, Catcher is good against most decks in the meta, where Stifle is good just against a few and if you're not up against those decks, it become a useless card after turn 3-4 when they have their mana.

That's the reason you don't see Stifle anymore in most lists, because it's a dead draw in a deck that can't afford that many and doesn't have a fast enough race to take advantage of the wee bit of tempo you gain from a Stifle in the first few turns.
That, and the fact that Spell Pierce does the same job as 2 Stifles on fetches by cutting their mana supplies by 2 instead of 1.

There are three types of disruption for combo decks. They are:
1. Permanent-based disruption. Counterbalance. Gaddock Teeg. Sphere of Resistance. Cursecatcher.
2. Reactive disruption. Overwhelmingly this comes in the form of counterspells, but occasionally something like removal can act as reactive disruption.
3. Proactive disruption. This is hand disruption (Duress, discard effects) and resource denial (Wasteland, Sinkhole).

This separation is based on what the combo player has to do to fight them. Duress is pretty ineffective at solving #1 or #3, but is very good at taking care of #2. They use bounce for #1, but it does nothing against anything else. Orim's Chant stops #2, but does nothing to #1 or #3.

Modern storm combo decks in Legacy that aren't Belcher can easily play through decks packing one of these types of hate, assuming they aren't packing a ridiculous amount of it (like a deck with 20 counters or something--these decks dont' exist). Without Cursecatchers, you only have reactive disruption, as the opposing player should be fetching basics anyway. Your basic strategy here is to just hope that you can get there, and you're heavily unfavored.

However, once you have Cursecatchers in the mix, not only do you have more disruption in general, you also have varied types of disruption. They can't just Duress away all your interactivity because some of your interactivity is on the board.

This idea is the reason why CounterTop decks are so good against storm combo. Not only do they have reactive disruption in Force of Will, but they also have _extremely_ effective permanant-based disruption in Counterbalance.

The thrust of all this is that, barring considerations for other decks, the best possible sideboard card for storm in Merfolk is either Duress or Thoughtseize, because then you are packing all three types of disruption--you're coming at them from all angles. There's no way they can sideboard against all of these, because then their deck becomes far too diluted.

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Originally Posted by Jiaozy

Since when Storm combo is a good MU?

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With a deck packing Manadenial (Wasteland on Lands + Stifle on Chrome Mox or Fetchlands), Free Counters (Force of Will, Daze) and a Clock I'm not afraid to face that one Combo player you'll not be facing with any regularity anyway. And I don't see how anyone else should either.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

I absolutely hated the random "I cannot play silvergill in an otherwise awesome hand thanks to only having 16 merfolk in the list

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This is a valid point and the situation did come up a few times, however, it never was dramatic.
I'm also inclined to turn this into a point against Silvergill Adept rather than for Cursecatcher. Especially since some number of Silvergill Adepts are to me the next weakest slots in the list (and I already considered cutting one of the Silvergill Adepts for the third Kira, Great-Glass Spinner).

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Originally Posted by Jiaozy

Not to mention, Catcher is good against most decks in the meta, where Stifle is good just against a few and if you're not up against those decks, it become a useless card after turn 3-4 when they have their mana.
That's the reason you don't see Stifle anymore in most lists, because it's a dead draw in a deck that can't afford that many and doesn't have a fast enough race to take advantage of the wee bit of tempo you gain from a Stifle in the first few turns.

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How is Cursecatcher a better topdeck "after turn 3-4 when they have their mana" than Stifle is?
I'd say he's about as useless as Stifle, if not more so: a 1/1 body isn't really relevant at that point of the game whereas Stifle can always randomly hit stuff like Pernicious Deed, Survival of the Fittest, Umezawa's Jitte, Goblin Matron, Wasteland on your Mutavault or a Fetchland activation after Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top (which is still good even if your opponent already has a lot of mana).

That, and the little fact that Stifle actually helps hindering aforementioned 'your opponent gets to have mana and do stuff' part a lot.

I furthermore fail to see how "Catcher is good against most decks in the meta".
What does he do against Zoo except chump-block? What does he do against the slower decks except force them to leave that mana open they're leaving open anyway due to playing around Daze?

I concede that sometimes Stifle is a bad topdeck; Cursecatcher also being a bad topdeck doesn't change that. However, the potential Stifle/Wasteland offers is, in my opinion, well worth the occasional let-down and will make you win more games than you loose due to having a bad topdeck.

With that being said in addition to what I said earlier on the issue, I could care less if people continue playing Cursecatcher in Merfolk. I've made my points, now it's up to each one of you to decide whether they make any at all. All I know is that a lot of people played Merfolk on the day, that the one list that top8ed didn't play Cursecatcher, and that I never wished Stifle were anything else all day long.

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Originally Posted by Jiaozy

That, and the fact that Spell Pierce does the same job as 2 Stifles on fetches by cutting their mana supplies by 2 instead of 1.

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Spell Pierce on a spell denies them that one spell. Which is very good and I do love my Spell Pierces in the Sideboard.
Stifle on Fetchland, however, denies them all those spells that all of a sudden can't be cast due to not having so many lands in play. Which, although it might not work all of the time, is even better.

i might be crazy but why not play Sygg, River Cutthroa or Cold-Eye Selkie if you are worried about The silvergail Adept not being able to drop. Sure they both do not imediately replace themselves but they both are easier to drop and have a higher chance for card advantage.

Sygg also has a pretty big body for a folk (1/3) which usually allows you to chump goyf pretty easily early on.

first of all, sygg river cutthroat and cold eyed selkie are subpar ways to make card advantage. Though probably i'd play cutthroat in a UR list because of the lightning bolts, i mean, with cutthroat in play, your bolts become: eot, tap R: deals 3 dmg to any target, cantrips. Sounds good to me.
Cold eyed selkie is subpar because, as stated hundreds of times in hundreds of threads regarding merfolk, it is good in those Mu where the merfolk player is >50% preside yet.
As for the Ur list, Lavamancer and bolts could really be the answers to the pain in the ass wich is represented by piledriver. Also they're good at removing alternative mana sources, like Bops and hierarchs, ideally completing the role played by stifle (for those who play it, no offense) and waste.
One last thing, Cursecatcher is always a better topdeck than stifle, unless you're playing with someone who has 4 pernicious deed maindeck.
For those who says that catcher is a 1/1 body and it's useless, i suggest quitting kiras and start playing some serious lord-heavy list, i.e. -3 kira + 3 sovereign. Merfolk Sovereign is very underrated. I mean, i play it as a 2 of, so i'm able to have 4 loa, 4 reejerey, 4 coralhelm and 2 sovereign. That's 14 lords, wich means freaking huge fishes. If you want to play legendary 2/2 for cmc 3...choice is yours.
Saito's list plays only the 20 ''necessary'' 'folks. And i think that everybody agree on that cut.If you want to add some, add more raw power by adding sovereign.
Also, kira is the most horrible topdeck you can have between 1st-4th turn. I'd rather topdeck a land to have coralhelm ramp to 4th level in one turn when opponents is tapped out. really.

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

I've been splashing White for a while now and have a few questions. Firstly, is Perish the Zoo hoser we need it to be? I've been running SB Ghostly Prison / Propaganda. Secondly, would adding Path to Exile in addition to Swords to Plowshares be too much? Finally, has anyone tested Sejiri Merfolk?

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I have been running Uw Merfolk for a while and before I was running 4 STPs in the main and 4 PtE + 4 REB in the SB against Zoo. Kinda overkill sometimes and not too effective. In order to beat Zoo, the key card is Kira. If Kira lands, it's usually going to be a lot smoother from then on. Right now, I have 4 STPs + 2 Kiras in the main, 3 PtE + 3 REB + 1 Kira in the side.

@ Sejiri Merfolk

I was planning on trying him out as a 3 of in the main to try and increase my threat density but not too sure what to cut. At this rate, I might cut Standstills and put in the Sejiri instead. It's going to look more like the 16 Lord build, but instead of Sovereign, I'll have Sejiris and STPs.

Lets be honest here. Kira against zoo is good if she sticks, but how will she stick when the zoo player has creatures that are all bigger than yours that they constantly apply pressure with? The zoo MU is abyssmal for merfolk for a reason and kira doesn't help that much sure it turns off path to exile but they don't necessarily need to play around your little fish when their whole deck is chock full of creatures that have a power of 2 or greater.

I'm a fan of stifle in here. It makes you more tempo oriented and you'll occasionally get the awkward hand with stifle and vial in it but stifle on the storm players' fetchlands is brutal for them since they only run about 13 lands. And against zoo packing steppe lynx as a 4 of it works quite well against the lynx since they don't bash your face for 4 points of damage when combined with a fetchland rather its just a kird ape which is a lot more underwhelming and you deny them mana which is always good against decks with a low land count.

Against dredge, cursecatcher is the MVP. You can counter their dread return with a cursecatcher AND remove at least 2 bridges most of the time. They hate cursecatcher just as much as they hate mogg fanatic.

Lets be honest here. Kira against zoo is good if she sticks, but how will she stick when the zoo player has creatures that are all bigger than yours that they constantly apply pressure with? The zoo MU is abyssmal for merfolk for a reason and kira doesn't help that much sure it turns off path to exile but they don't necessarily need to play around your little fish when their whole deck is chock full of creatures that have a power of 2 or greater.

I'm a fan of stifle in here. It makes you more tempo oriented and you'll occasionally get the awkward hand with stifle and vial in it but stifle on the storm players' fetchlands is brutal for them since they only run about 13 lands. And against zoo packing steppe lynx as a 4 of it works quite well against the lynx since they don't bash your face for 4 points of damage when combined with a fetchland rather its just a kird ape which is a lot more underwhelming and you deny them mana which is always good against decks with a low land count.

Against dredge, cursecatcher is the MVP. You can counter their dread return with a cursecatcher AND remove at least 2 bridges most of the time. They hate cursecatcher just as much as they hate mogg fanatic.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

I'm a fan of stifle in here. It makes you more tempo oriented and you'll occasionally get the awkward hand with stifle and vial in it

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I calculated this likelyhood as 0.24... with the following: [(4/60)+(4/59)+(4/58)+(4/57)+(4/56)+(4/55)+(4/54)]^2. Is this correct? It seems like a far too often occurance. You'd need a plan here for such an occasion. Perhaps hold back the Aether Vial to Stifle and drop it second turn? Seems too slow against the Zoo match up. I suppose it'd be entirely dependent on whether we play or draw.

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Originally Posted by lotriderm

I have been running Uw Merfolk for a while and before I was running 4 STPs in the main and 4 PtE + 4 REB in the SB against Zoo. Kinda overkill sometimes and not too effective. In order to beat Zoo, the key card is Kira. If Kira lands, it's usually going to be a lot smoother from then on. Right now, I have 4 STPs + 2 Kiras in the main, 3 PtE + 3 REB + 1 Kira in the side.

@ Sejiri Merfolk

I was planning on trying him out as a 3 of in the main to try and increase my threat density but not too sure what to cut. At this rate, I might cut Standstills and put in the Sejiri instead. It's going to look more like the 16 Lord build, but instead of Sovereign, I'll have Sejiris and STPs.

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I've been resistant to running Kira, Great Glass-Spinner for a number of reasons. Namely casting cost, not a lord, and not a 'folk. As DarkRitual was alluding to, she doesn't swing the match in our favor enough to offset those compromises. On the Sejiri point, I'm going to be testing him in a build running Cosi's Trickster and Path to Exile. My hope is that this build will be both aggressive and defensive enough to compete with Zoo, if not game 1 than post board. I'm sure this will be met with sceptism, but I'll be posting a list and playtest results in the near future.

Cosi sucks. really. Dude, I dont know how you did your tests, but Kira is a MVP.

I used to run Kira and she was good when there was a lot of removal floating around, but now there is mostly combo, so I'm dropping her from my list. I'm thinking of Echoing Truth and Spell Pierce.

Cosi's Trickster really sucks actually. She doesn't get very big until it is too late.

+1 to Cosi's Trickster sucking ass. If you want to tweak the creature base towards beating the Zoo matchup and you're already blue/white, I think 4 Coralhelm Commander and 3-4 Sejiri Merfolk is probably a really good start.

Cosi could be a staple in T1 Merfolk if anybody tries it. No chanche to do good in legacy.
Sejiri is very good but in my opinion does'nt justify weaking your manabase. If you really want to make your manabase wastable and stiflable, splash black wich gives lots of fun post sb. I dont know about beating Zoo adding creatures, they have too much spot removal so sejiri is just another target.

Hi there,

as there is quite an important legacy tourney for me next weekend i removed the dust from my old merfolk-deck, bought some commanders and started testing the deck again. Currently I am testing a version similar to this one http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37513 with just a lot of meat and no standstill. I just think standstill sucks in the current meta, the report i read just a few minutes ago seems to confirm this observation (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?18614-[Report]-Team-SPOD-German-Legacy-Champs-2010 ). However, playing without standstill makes me feel playing RDW: reveal the top 15 cards of your libary, compare them to the top 15 of your opps libary and guestimate who wins. So I thought about adding another way of card draw / advantage. After going through the different possibilities I stopped at Dark Confidant. Unfortunately, he is not a merfolk ;), but he has a decent body, can be put on the board if the position is neutral or even negative and costs b. Costing b means an inclusion is not a big issue as b-splash is quite nice for the sideboard, as already mentioned.

Did anyone test a variant with Dark Confidant? And how did it work? :)

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Originally Posted by 1rakete

Hi there,

as there is quite an important legacy tourney for me next weekend i removed the dust from my old merfolk-deck, bought some commanders and started testing the deck again. Currently I am testing a version similar to this one http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37513 with just a lot of meat and no standstill. I just think standstill sucks in the current meta, the report i read just a few minutes ago seems to confirm this observation (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?18614-[Report]-Team-SPOD-German-Legacy-Champs-2010 ). However, playing without standstill makes me feel playing RDW: reveal the top 15 cards of your libary, compare them to the top 15 of your opps libary and guestimate who wins. So I thought about adding another way of card draw / advantage. After going through the different possibilities I stopped at Dark Confidant. Unfortunately, he is not a merfolk ;), but he has a decent body, can be put on the board if the position is neutral or even negative and costs b. Costing b means an inclusion is not a big issue as b-splash is quite nice for the sideboard, as already mentioned.

Did anyone test a variant with Dark Confidant? And how did it work? :)

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Merfolk is a deck wich runs the 2 most powerful cards under standstill: Manlands (in the form of Mutavaults) and Aether vial. The only other card wich is really broken under standstill and we can't run is goblin lackey. But, given the fact that merfolk is maybe the deck wich can abuse better than any other DTB early standstills, i cannot see the point of running less than 3. Personally i run 4 and i absolutely love em, at the point that i'm considering buying a foil playset :cool:
Then, you propose -4 standstill +4 dark confidant. Sure confidant is the best continuous draw effect, and the cheapest, but also has a red sign over his head saying ''stp me'', a thing your standstills have not. I'm not only saying that ''dies to removal'' but, in addition to that, you cannot rely only on confidant for card draw, simply because he will most likely be killed 1 minute after he touches the table. Also, saying that a 2/1 for 2 is a DECENT BODY, in a deck running 12/16 lords who all can pump eachother is ridicolous. In merfolk 2/1 is not a decent body. Is something to laugh at.

Then, consideer that you dont run jitte maindeck, you play 6-7 fetches and your average curve is 2.1-2.3...and you play Fows.
You still want confidants?:tongue:

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Originally Posted by 1rakete

Hi there,

as there is quite an important legacy tourney for me next weekend i removed the dust from my old merfolk-deck, bought some commanders and started testing the deck again. Currently I am testing a version similar to this one http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37513 with just a lot of meat and no standstill. I just think standstill sucks in the current meta, the report i read just a few minutes ago seems to confirm this observation (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?18614-[Report]-Team-SPOD-German-Legacy-Champs-2010 ). However, playing without standstill makes me feel playing RDW: reveal the top 15 cards of your libary, compare them to the top 15 of your opps libary and guestimate who wins. So I thought about adding another way of card draw / advantage. After going through the different possibilities I stopped at Dark Confidant. Unfortunately, he is not a merfolk ;), but he has a decent body, can be put on the board if the position is neutral or even negative and costs b. Costing b means an inclusion is not a big issue as b-splash is quite nice for the sideboard, as already mentioned.

Did anyone test a variant with Dark Confidant? And how did it work? :)

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And help zoo kill you?

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

+1 to Cosi's Trickster sucking ass. If you want to tweak the creature base towards beating the Zoo matchup and you're already blue/white, I think 4 Coralhelm Commander and 3-4 Sejiri Merfolk is probably a really good start.

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I generally agree. In order to run with Zoo we need a lower curve, removal and combat tricks. I simply want to test Trickster because of the synergy with PtE. I've noticed that a few successfully cast StP puts me far behind in the damage race. Meanwhile, it seems alot of their builds don't even run basics, making PtE essentially free. How many times do they shuffle their library? Every fetch gives their Steppe Lynx temporary +4/+4 and Cosi's Trickster a permanent +1/+1. Throw in a Lord or 2 and a Path to Exile and we got a chance. Seems worth testing. Addtionally, most have abandoned the 'tempo' build, why not at least try a more aggro build with some control back up?

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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeTim

Meanwhile, it seems alot of their builds don't even run basics, making PtE essentially free.

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This is completely false. Almost every zoo list runs at least 3 basics. And let me tell you, if you give them a rampant growth, they are going to gain even more tempo against you than they already have. As far as shuffling effects, most zoo lists will run 9 or 10 fetches, which is really not enough to justify trickster in my opinion. Why? Because it's a terrible creature with a conditional ability to get better, but it still dies to all of the removal just the same. Path and trickster is cute, but really not an interaction that is going to win you any games in my opinion, since merfolk's power is in the lord swarm, and not in one creature becoming a base 3/3 or 4/4.

Anybody ever tested Minamo, School at Water's Edge] and Wake Trasher?

Seems worse than just running more lords. Plus, drawing into that combination is not that likely, and I'd rather not weaken the manabase for a poor combo.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Anybody ever tested Minamo, School at Water's Edge] and Wake Trasher?

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I suggested testing that to you when we talked on MWS because it's hilariously funny, not because it's necessarily all that strong.

Anyways, Thrasher has mostly fallen out of favor for Coralhelm Commander. But I can tell you this from back when I used to run Thrasher: If you're already trying him out, you can afford to throw a Minamo in there, especially if you're mono-blue (probably not if you're splashing). Getting hit by Wasteland a few times is all going to be made up for by the huge smile you get the first time you catch your opponent with their pants down and Vial in a ridiculously big Thrasher while their blockers are tapped out.

Basically, what I'm saying is, "Try it a couple times just for kicks. But don't expect it to be like 'teh hackzors' or anything."

hm, well. I thought you can untap Minamo infinite, but since tapping is part of the effect you need other blue mana sources. That makes it much worse. Im back to the classic list now. MonoU with 3Stifle, 1 Kira and 2Standstill. I dont see the greater use of the black splash. 1 Plague doesnt kill Piledrivers and Hibernation almost does the same as Perish at Instantspeed.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

hm, well. I thought you can untap Minamo infinite, but since tapping is part of the effect you need other blue mana sources. That makes it much worse. Im back to the classic list now. MonoU with 3Stifle, 1 Kira and 2Standstill. I dont see the greater use of the black splash. 1 Plague doesnt kill Piledrivers and Hibernation almost does the same as Perish at Instantspeed.

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nope. Though 1 plague doesnt kill piledrivers, kills lackeys,matrons and suddendly siege gangs becomes ''almost'' useless. And you know, having a piledriver attacking with 3 other creature is way different than having it attacking alone. Just sayin. And if you're so lucky to draw 2, then is autoloss for opponent.
Hibernation is a 1for1 100% of the times. Perish is a 2x1 60% of the times, and a 3x1 10% of the times. Also destroy > top.

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Originally Posted by kiblast

nope. Though 1 plague doesnt kill piledrivers, kills lackeys,matrons and suddendly siege gangs becomes ''almost'' useless. And you know, having a piledriver attacking with 3 other creature is way different than having it attacking alone. Just sayin. And if you're so lucky to draw 2, then is autoloss for opponent.
Hibernation is a 1for1 100% of the times. Perish is a 2x1 60% of the times, and a 3x1 10% of the times. Also destroy > top.

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How is Hibernation a 1for1 in the same situation that Perish is a 3for1 or 2for1? Just asking, though I realize that you are mixing Hibernation with Submerge :) Most of the time Hibernation is just as good as Perish is...and it is also usefull against decks like enchantress where Perish is almost completely useless.

I played in a 40 people tourney this list only losing too lands (which is quite normal for merfolk) - the tourney has quite good players (at least 10 of those 40 have 1800+ rating) and many decks were present - i had 1 impossible matchup (lands), 1 hard matchup (zoo), 2 medium matchups (UWTempo mit bolts and UW Faeris [stoneforge mystic, jitte and swords and path to exile) and 1 good matchup (show and tell):

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [M11] Island (1)
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [ROE] Coralhelm Commander
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
2 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [6E] Perish
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

stoneforemystic did a fanstatic job and was the MVP all day long.

R1: 2-1 against UW Tempo with splash red for bolts - stoneforge into jitte and 2 2x stifle 1x wasteland draw won here
R2: 2-0 against Show And Tell Emrakul - Stifled the Anihilator trigger from emrakul and raced him, g2 spell pierce made my day
R3: 2-1 against UW Faeris - stoneforge into jitte won both games
R4: 0-2 against BlueLands: No Chance vs Loam, Waste, Maze and Tabernacal - i couldnt use relic proper cause he aleays had a cycle land
R5: 2-1 against Zoo: i lost g1 due to too much pressure, g2 stifle x2 + wasteland won, g3 perish and swords and stoneforge mystic into jitte won

conclusion:

if u splash white then stoneforge mystic is really a nice choice expecially in those matchups were ur guys are just too small. i dont like standstill at the moment cause too many decks play either vial or manlands or both. stoneforde mystic also does card advantage - great choice.

sideboard could see some changes but thats always a meta call.

any one else tested the stoneforge tech. or has some contructive input?

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Originally Posted by Yan

How is Hibernation a 1for1 in the same situation that Perish is a 3for1 or 2for1? Just asking, though I realize that you are mixing Hibernation with Submerge :) Most of the time Hibernation is just as good as Perish is...and it is also usefull against decks like enchantress where Perish is almost completely useless.

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yeah man, i was thinking of submerge. I'm really sorry. :-)
'bout hibernation, is a really strong card, and i used to run it sb for a while, but bouncing seems worse than destroying, idk for enchantress Mu, sure it helps a lot and it is our MVP, but how many solitary are you going to find?

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Originally Posted by kiblast

yeah man, i was thinking of submerge. I'm really sorry. :-)
'bout hibernation, is a really strong card, and i used to run it sb for a while, but bouncing seems worse than destroying, idk for enchantress Mu, sure it helps a lot and it is our MVP, but how many solitary are you going to find?

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Bouncing is definately weaker that destroying in most cases. Instant speed comes in handy sometimes though. I don't know about Enchantress being popular, but there's always a few. And maybe more when people start to realize how under played combo really is.

On the other hand, I really like to keep it simple and play mono blue. And I have to say that I really like Submerge. It is definately one of the strongest sb options for this deck. Hibernation on the other hand have been performing much less impressively, but still it is too a kind of must include in a mono U list, for sb. (At least around here in Finland, where people seem to love green...even in politics :) )

the good thing about hibernation is, that it slows the popular vengevine survival, since you just bounce the complete board in the attack step (including survival). Perish is useless here.

and as is said, 1 plague doesnt kill goblins. and since they play wasteland and ports + chieftains, its even less useful. usually the matchup is who has the faster clock, commander is pretty useful here. plague might help, but i dont think this justifies a splash. Just use Jittes

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

and as is said, 1 plague doesnt kill goblins. and since they play wasteland and ports + chieftains, its even less useful. usually the matchup is who has the faster clock, commander is pretty useful here. plague might help, but i dont think this justifies a splash. Just use Jittes

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Yeah but you cnat run 4 jitte sb. And 2 jitte are not enough to beat em, unless you got it connected turn 3. So i think 2 jittes + 3 plagues is good. If you play manaramp merfolk, use Tsabo's decree. /sarcasm

Here's what I've been tossing around for some time:

3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Island

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey

3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The sideboard is not finished (is a sideboard ever finished?) but were I to go to an event today, I would probably play something like this:

4 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
3 Crypt/Relic

Now, what I like about the build is that with 4 Commanders and 2 Jittes, it topdecks rather well if I happen to over-extend into a sweeper or if I run into a stalemate. I still have two slots in the main that are undecided but I'm fairly certain that I want two more creatures. I have tried Waterfront Bouncher (who is kinda situational but good against Emrakul, Iona and friends, and can swing against decks with no creatures) Kira (who I love, but Kira + Jitte = awkward) and I've been meaning to revisit Wake Thrasher, because he can also be topdecked after a sweep and swing for the fences.

Some help regarding those two last slots would be much appreciated.

So has someone done real testing with the exact Saito list? I've read his tournament report and his list is the first Merfolk variant I'd really be comfortable with. How much does the black splash improve the Zoo and Goblins matchup? How does the deck against Ug Vengevine Survival? So far I am still pretty unexperienced with Merfolk but this variant has really attracted my attention and after reading his tournament report from GP Columbus I've already played some game on MWS so far.