[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

After some more testing i've noticed:

1) a 2/2 split between WoG and Firespout (with at least a 3rd one sb) seems fine;

2) faerie macabre>ravenous trap; trap is poor against reanimator, a matchup i'm concerned about;

3) at least 1 tormod's crypt should be present if tolaria west is played;

4) still not sure about tolaria, it's the kind of card that can save you the day or slow you down when you need to be fast.. stil it's more yes than no for me..

5) i went back on karakas and added 1 main (-1 delta)

6) wing shards: may be a solution to any non-Iona fatties..

Well I am glad to see you are back and willing to put some time into the deck Konsultant. I'm interested in what you come up with.

Maybe this deck should fuse with the Counter-Top Thopter deck and somehow has a bastard child between the two that makes this deck viable again.

Maybe the Thopter Combo + Standstill + Manalands?

there actually has been a uw landstill list that did well at the bazar of moxen trial here is the link
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34444

This list was allready disscussed several pages ago.

But, as you mentioned BoM, what do you guys think about the UWg list that made top4?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35640

I'm not quite sure if I like the list or not. 3 copies of Jace 2.0 seems to be 1 (or maybe even 2) to much, yet on the other hand the list looks pretty solid on paper (even if I miss 1-2 extra spot removal in the mainboard).

I'm also not sure if Grip is worth the splash, because neither ANT or Reanimator do suffer from it (well maybe ANT a bit if they play Carpet of Flowers from the side, or against maindeck Top's).
They certainly help against Vials or Counterbalance, but judging from his manacurve his machtup against Balance/Top isn't that bad and 3 Explosives should be able to deal with Vials.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by konsultant

You absolutly must resolve card advantage against your opponent inorder to CONSISTENTLY win, you cannot rely on top decks with Landstill as our excessive land count while absolutly needed is a hindrence when it comes down to statistics and the top deck race. That same high land count is also critical as it reduces the number of mulligans we may be forced to make contributing once again to card quantity advantage[/B]

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I haven't been able to post here in quite some time. You make some excellent points and I agree. I can't recall exactly, but are you against the use of Top? I'm split on if I want to use it or not but am leaning towards not using it. I think I'd rather have more answers that they have to deal with rather than searching for the answers which doesn't give us much card advantage.

This list I find rather interesting, it took 5th at the Moxen Tournament: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35642

It uses E. Dragon to help color fix since he uses 9 colorless sources (which to me is too much anyway) but he also uses 2 Crucible which is interesting. Most lists use 1 if they use any at all. What do people think of 2 in the maindeck? Its difficult to find room for 24 lands, 2 CoW, and an E. Dragon, I imagine one of those can be cut (likely the 24th land, although going below 24 is risky as implied above, but 2 CoW and the Dragon should help land situations).

This list looks crappy to me. Lightning Bolt? I absolutely dont't get the point of playing this card in a Landstill deck. You never want to shoot it at the opponent and as a removal it's a lot worse than Edict or Path.

I'd say Fire/Ice and Lightning Helix are better than bolt, if you want to go with red.

About UWG list: Grip just isn't worth it. The list doesn't even run Nantuko Monastery. Its just plain UW if you look closely at it.

I played Wafo-tapp's list after reading about it in ruels cg article, and I did a top 8. top 4 out of it on 2back to back tournies.

The changes I would make, would be cuting green for either black or red, blackobviously improving the reanimator match along with allowing access to e plagues.

I mean, wafo-tapa's list is the exact contrary of innovation... is basically an old school landstill with snare, jace 2.0 instead of fof, disputable manabase and a worse wrath of god (i've never seen a extirpate on wog...), which runs 4 standstill and only 4mishra and no land denial to survive under it. Props to his finish, that's clear. But really, not anything one can't build on its own once he has some practice with the deck shell... (and stilistically speaking, one can do even better) He just reinvented the wheel, though it was good at finishing that high in such a large tournament.

And what's wrong with that? The so called "innovations" are firespouts and crappy RW rlaneswalker, while straight W with wraths / humilities is just better for most of the meta... I built the already discussed thopter-Landstill on my own and won 2 tournaments, STILL the classic builds are just more solid against an average metagame. In fact, Wafos Landstill will probably loose to ANT and have a good matchup against almost every other deck due to the 2 humilities. Jace is awesome, far better then fact or fiction ever was. I would run the list nearly exactly, taking out 1 c-spell and 1 jace for the 3. top (which allows to play 3 counterbalances in the SB instead of the meddling mages) and the 4. spell snare for the 4. c-spell...
Krosan Grip is definetly worth the splash (you need a splash anyway for ee3), cause you better handle c-balances AND enemy tops. If i would consider another splash, i would probably take red for lightning helixes against zoo / merfolk...
One more point: Wafos list runs the most solid Landstill-manabase i did ever see (i would cut 1 misty rainforest for another basic island) which is great. And since you have so many planeswalker you don't even have to run things like crucible for wastelands / factory recursion. Just put Jace + Elspeth on the board and win the game some rounds after that while destroying all threats with the removal from theese extra-brainstorms...
Since i played Landstill for about 5 years (the last year not, there i played dreadstill) and Wafos list is quite similar to the last i played (there i had cunning wishes but they seem way too slow at the moment) i will definitely give it a try.
Greetz, Marius Hausmann

Who said there's soemthing wrong?

I just don't get why people talk with ammiration of wafo's list like a new god descended from heavens, that's just classic landstill with minor changes and maybe the weakest splash among g, b, r. No one ever said that's wrong or he doesn't deserve credits for top8'ing @ BoM with that, but that's just one of the lists I play since top and jace1.0 came out and not me alone in this thread. There's really nothing to be surprised on the list: it's linear, no bullets stuff or whatever. Fine, I like it, but don't say this is innovative! (that's the only thing that it's wrong)

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Originally Posted by Spur Grappler

This list looks crappy to me. Lightning Bolt? I absolutely dont't get the point of playing this card in a Landstill deck. You never want to shoot it at the opponent and as a removal it's a lot worse than Edict or Path.

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Lightning Bolt is an interesting choice. It quickly gets rid of creatures that can give us problems. We have swords and other removal for the creatures that it can't get rid of. It also helps against ANT and can help deal with Planeswalkers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spur Grappler

This list looks crappy to me. Lightning Bolt? I absolutely dont't get the point of playing this card in a Landstill deck. You never want to shoot it at the opponent and as a removal it's a lot worse than Edict or Path.

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Lightning Bolt is an interesting choice. It quickly gets rid of creatures that can give us problems. We have swords and other removal for the creatures that it can't get rid of. It also helps against ANT and can help deal with Planeswalkers.

Accidental double post so lets add to this one then: I like that Bolt doesn't give them a land like Path does, and it still takes care of most of the troublesome creautures. It was a life-saver when I tested it against goblins and got rid of 2 early Lackeys in a row. WIth Path, they would have gotten 2 land drops and would've been much more dangerous.

Of course Lightning Bolt is not a useless card in general, but it isn't good in Landstill. I can't handle Goyf, Dreadnought and all the other bigger guys. You want to play it in decks where it is good to shoot 3 at your opponent. We don't need that. We either have board control an win or don't have it and loose. The opponent's life is not important (most of the time of course).
But you're right about Path beeing not that good either. I'm going to test Innocent Blood. It's really good against Reanimator and Zoo, it can kill Mongoose and is hopefully decent against most other decks. Sorcery Speed sucks, but the lower cost (compared to Edict) seems to be more important in todays fast and Daze/Spell Pierce-infested meta. I know that it's not a great card, but I will give it a try.

As funny as it may be...
Lighting bolt could be used as a cheap 1 mana removal AND (although unlikely) can destroy a planeswalker. I've seen alot of JACE 2.0 drops and just BS away. IF you have that bolt in hand, you could surprise your opponent. Same thing with any other Planeswalker. Attack with normal creature damage and bolt it....

My list being short in blue, I would run Fire/Ice over it. However, the bolt would probably be better than fire/ice in at least 50% of the scenarios.

You already have
4stp
0-4 wog humility
0-4 EE
to get rid of Goyfs and other creatures with high defense. Those bolt should be used instead on weaker creatures. Save the STP for the fatties ; use the bolt on the nacati and other trouble creature

Not saying it IS good. But clearly not a bad card.

Oh, in my opinion, BOLT is superior to PTE in many MU. Giving life to opponent is acceptable.
Giving a land can be a huge lost
Which is why bolt can come in handy against the fast aggro decks.

Again, not trying to defend bolt. Just want to correct some false statements about how bad the card is : it isnt

What do people think about Lightning Helix? I play it as a 2of in the maindeck for additional spot removal, as a md life-gain effect and cmc2 for CB (which my list runs).

I've tested this build for some time and been fairly succesful with it. (that is, I haven't lost with it on MWS yet, but that doesn't really prove much)



// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
2 [MM] Plains (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures

// Spells
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Wrath of God
1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
2 [TE] Humility
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile


I really like Stifle over Counterspell in this deck. Its primary function is to protect your nonbasics from Wasteland so you won't get mana screwed and you can get to your 4cc bombs faster and more easily, but it also has the other usual uses like stopping Pridemage/EE/Deed etc. I'm no Landstill expert so if you think it sucks, tell me what you think should be changed :>

Hello everyone,

i read this thread and i do have a complete different view of the current state of landstill.

the problem of landstill is that you do have a lot of disruption, but you no potent clock that makes ur disruption relevant.

1. combo:

without such a clock you lose close to 100% vs every very good comboplayer because he can simply make u waste counter on fake-starts and then just finishes you - thats why tempotresh wins vs combo - they do have a clock and disruption.

2. aggro

because u lack a clock they mostly finish u exept you gain total board control, which almost never happens.

3. reanimator/dregde/GY-decks

reanimator is unwinable in g1 because of the speed AND the disruption they have.

4. bant

you should win this one unless they iona/cb/progenitus u

5. conclusion

most of the MU are really bad for the old landstill and for most of the lists i have seen above.

i do have a approach on how to turn this deck into a T1 deck, i call it "Polystill". this list do have a clock and offers the disruption which is good against the current format - cards like elspeth, wrath,... are to slow and need to be changed. the power level and the speed of the format has changed.

6. the list

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [ROE] Plains (1)
1 [ROE] Island (1)
1 [R] Plateau
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [MOR] Mutavault
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SHM] Firespout
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [MI] Polymorph
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

7. the choices

Polymorph, 8 manlands and iona (emrakul):

the power of iona is known from bantsurv and reanimator, polymorph offer a 5. turn iona which is much more potent than an elspeth, emrakul is vs. bant cause it is better than iona, they have no chance to handle it and it isnt stopped by iona number 2 from the bant player, and after a wrath u just need to poly again.

red: wrath is too slow and red offers firespout and lightning helix vs aggro. path offers them a extra land and you do have swords, spell snare and a bigger creature vs creature that dont die from firespout.

cb: i searched a card that is good against aggro AND combo, i found no better card than cb, cb is also good against loam und other prob decks

sideboard:

a.lab against combo, emra against bant (and reanimator), helix against aggro, gy hate against decks that use thier gy - sb ist obv. i think

If you want combo at any cost, proteus staff is certainly better than polimorph... cut manlands and add elspeth + vedalken shackles and it should be ok.

Quote:

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polymorph offer a 5. turn iona

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Wow. Impressive. Why playing a deck that can put a t2 iona into play when we can have polymorph?...

(End of sarcasm)
I really don't get why a combo that gets online @ t5 (or 6/7/8 if you count daze and pierce...) should push landstill in the deck t beat zone again...

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Originally Posted by APodeschwa

...disaster...

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I suppose there have been worse opening posts, welcome to The Source anyway.

Although that was painful to read, I still managed to soldier through it and this is what I've got:

Your assessment of "why Landstill is bad" seems generally wrong, and your suggestion to improve the problems (no Wrath, add crazy Polymorph package) don't improve them at all.

For Combo we solve the lack of a clock problem by siding into "HateBear+Counterspell".deck. You stop their early attempts to go off with your disruption, land a hatebear (disruption AND clock) and ride it to victory. I've had a lot of success with this approach and before you say it... The "every combo player you've ever played must be a scrub then" response is overused. (Besides, if every combo player I ever play against is a bad combo player, then my strategy still works, lawl.)

Landstill is bad against aggro? Since when? Zoo is a Bye. We are a board control deck, to say that we hardly ever control it is silly.

Your Reanimator argument is fairly justified, game 1 is a beating. But really how does Polymorph help us here?

In order to use Polymorph:
A) We have to live to at least turn 5! (You need a Factory to 'Morph)
B) On turn 5 you have to resolve a 4 mana spell, and you can't even pay for Daze because you have to activate your man-land.
C) Assuming all of that happens your Iona comes into play and against Reaminator.... LEGEND RULE! ...oops. You pass the turn, they untap and reanimate theirs again and we just lose anyway, looking retarded.


Against Merfolk you're still not going to resolve Polymorph in time for it to matter just like any other 4cc Bomb.

Really polymorph doesn't help us at all. Sure it CAN cheat Emrakul or w/e into play in magicalchristmasland, but in the real world it'll just get straight up countered by Lightning Bolt, StoP, Path, etc.

As much as I love Polymorph as a fun/casual card, I'm honestly not seeing ANY matchups that your configuration improves, for the most part, it makes them all worse...

In my opinion, Landstill has a very positive board against most aggro. (except maybe tribal). Zoo can be hard because they can stil reach for the final damages with their bolts and other spells even if Landstill has board control. I would still play red to push that positive to its max.

Against reanimator : playing more counterspells and muligan agressively. SDT + Cunning wish + Jace TMS can sometimes steal game 1 (I did it twice, so its not impossible, although G1 is still in their favor). After sidebord, you should have plenty tools to survive. Just make sure to counter their 4entomb or 4 careful study. Preventing them from dropping the monster in the graveyard can be key (and would probably force them to discard by drawing 8, or by hoping to find another card). This alone should give you additional time to find answers, especially after sideboard. (FOW turn 1 careful study, drop turn 2 meddling mage for example. A turn 1 Relic of progenitus should also buy you enough time to stabilize and win, etc etc.)

Planeswalker has helped Landstill alot. It allows us to maximize board control. Having an Elspeth for example will allow you to control board against most non tribal aggro, forcing them to overextend and allowing you to abuse WOG effects. Jace 2.0 will allow you to control board (With its unsummon) but it will also allow you to gain control of the library (With its brainstorm ability, but also with its look at the top card ability. That alone can finish off most deck that have 0 card to manipulate the deck) Plus, all Planeswalker that are landstill-playable have a decent ultimate that can bring down your opponent on its own. I'm thinking about the Jace (1.0 and 2.0). Elspeth has a nice one too. Use it and all your blockers are now invincible. (This can buy you so much time against aggro). Ajani (Vengeant and Goldmane) have pretty good ultimate too...

And combo is combo. You usually lose G1 not because you dont have a clock, but because they are too fast and are not subject to your board control. Basically, you have about 12 cards that are useless against them (all of your removal usually). You need to sidebord them out for more counters and other tool. G2-3 are usually more winnable depending on how godly his hand is and if you have enough counters to survive the first wave. If you play red, by all mean, use your Helix on your opponent. Removing some of their life will make ant more risky and should buy you 1-2 more storm spell

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/i...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by APodeschwa http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/i...post-right.png
...disaster...

I suppose there have been worse opening posts, welcome to The Source anyway.

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Have nothing relevant to topic, but this was great and it actually made me go back looking in the thread while thinking to myself.." What disaster?".

Ok, so I've been toying with Landstill for all of like, three weeks now (a relatively short time) and after looking at a whole lot of lists, I've ended up with a UWr build, with the red for Firespout and red blasts from the board. For reference:

2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
1x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Humility
3x Firespout
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Elspeth
1x Jace, the Mind Sculpter
1x Ajani Vengeant

2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
2x Plateau
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Mishra's Factory

I'm not expecting this to be a format-defining, game-ending death machine, or some unbeatable monster. Conservatively, I'd like to win three matchups: Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo. If that means my combo matchup is 0%, or that I auto-lose to Reanimator, so be it.

All that being said, I'm wondering what all of you think about the maindeck. The humilities have been fantastic, and oftentimes seal game one all on their own. The win conditions feel somewhat lackluster, as none of the planeswalkers seal the deal simply by entering play. Ajani is easily the weakest of the three, and a card I'm strongly considering cutting, but I'm not really sure what to replace him with. I've considered a few combo wins, including painter-grindstone, but that doesn't really seem like where this build wants to go.

I've loved Firespout, despite its relative inability to kill Tarmogoyf. That cost me in one match, but doesn't seem to be a big enough issue to merit going back to Wrath. The 1x Path and 4x Swords make the removal suite pretty Tarmogoyf-proof, and I'm not really feeling the lack of Academy ruins, but I'm considering losing a plains for it, as EE recursion would help a lot in some match-ups. 4x Spell Snare feels like a weak point in the list, as against goblins it's going to hit one relevant card (Piledriver), against Merfolk it'll counter three (LoA, Standstill, Silvergill), while against Zoo it's stopping a lot more (Pridemage, Goyf, Library, Helix, etc). That being said, I'm thinking about Spell Pierce/More counterspells as a replacement. Not sure if that's good with my goals in mind, but it feels like pierce would be almost as relevant simply by countering Aether vial in those matchups.

That brings me to my main point of posting here: I hate standstill. I hate it. It's dead in nearly every matchup I want to be winning in, simply by virtue of my opponent being aggressive. Any number of starts, which obviously include Lackey, Vial, a Manland, or simply fast creatures out of Zoo, make standstill very unimpressive from my side of the table. I'm obviously not playing the card into a bad board position, but it's rare that I have a good board position. The only time I really feel that I can drop Standstill is when my opponent isn't sitting on vial, and I've just wiped the board. But in order to wipe the board and play standstill on the same turn, I need to be coughing up 5 mana, which in some matchups is too late, and I’ve needed my board sweeper before then. If I wipe and pass, I'm facing down another threat from my opponent what feels like 70-80% of the time, at which point I no longer have a favorable board position, which means I can't drop standstill, which makes me hate the card. And all this is forgetting the fact that, in general, Merfolk runs wastes and manlands to my only manlands, and as such I probably shouldn't even drop Standstill onto an EMPTY board against them. Argh.

With all that hate in mind, I have to say, when it shines, it really shines. I mulled down to four cards one game, and Tundra Standstill Swords Mishra’s Factory managed to take Zoo well into the lategame, almost solely on the back of that Standstill. But one success story does not a useful card make. I really either want to somehow tune the deck to be better able to abuse standstill, or drop the card entirely for a more effective draw engine.

While this may make all of my friends face-palm simultaneously, in my mind the only card that even comes close to providing the raw card advantage that Standstill does as cheaply as standstill does it, is Life-from-the-fucking-Loam. It’s worth noting that I’m not suggesting cycling lands here. Simply recurring fetches, dead Mishra’s Factories, and perhaps Wastelands would be enough to merit Loam’s inclusion, as it’s interaction with brainstorm is fantastic. Dredging away the two terrible cards you throw back on top after an EoT brainstorm would be an amazing way to attain some card quality, and allows you to shuffle/top/brainstorm/dredge away lands, as the Loam itself is going to guarantee your next few land drops.

Loam is obviously not without downsides. It opens you up to a world of grave-hate you were previously nearly impervious to, and puts you in a fourth color. Those two things alone are probably enough to make me not play it. But it’s still worth suggesting, simply to hear more opinions on the card, or its possible use in landstill/control archetypes.

The idea of Loam failing brings me to another point entirely. If Loam isn’t worth it, and I cant get Standstill to function properly against Merfolk, Goblins, and Zoo, is Landstill the right deck for me? Is there another viable control deck somewhere in Legacy that doesn’t have the issue with standstill being mediocre against aggro, and doesn’t have the problem of Loam drawing all of the graveyard removal in the format? With the vast number of cards in the Legacy card pool, and the raw power of some of the control cards inside of that pool, it would seem improbable that there isn’t at least one other blue control deck in the format, that quite possibly does not run a Standstill or a Loam engine, while still playing Brainstorm, Force of Will, Fetches, and a real draw engine.

And before I get four different Elgin monstrosities suggested to me, it’s worth noting that I’m not willing to move away from brainstorm and top and fetches. I’ve been playing blue-less decks for a while now, and coming back to the Brainstorms, Fetches, and Tops that I loved so much in Dreadstill is very refreshing. This is assuming, of course, that you even think I need to switch lists. Landstill could just be in need of some tuning.

You should simply have a little bit more practice with the deck, that's all. If you want to beat tribal and zoo, humilities are certainly not needed, as 3 firespout already do the job at a cheaper cost. I'd also cut counterspells for another 2 copies of jace the mind sculptor an a crucible for something else. Apart from merfolk, in all other Mu's you mentioned standstill is simply backbreaking, as you should build the deck with lots of spot removal so that you are certain to have the board always clear to take full advantage of standstill. I suggest another path to exile or lightning bolt/lightning helix, and obviously the 3rd EE.

-2 counterspell
+2 jace the mind sculptor
-2 humility
-1 crucible of worlds
+3 bolt/helixes
If you choose helix,
-1 Ajani vengeant
+1 EE
-1 Path to Exile
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

(Eventually: -1 FS +1 humility, but again, needed only if you usually run into lots of progenitals)

SB:
3 Aura of Silence
3 reb
3 counterbalance
2 Relic of progenitus
3 faerie macabre
1 open slot (humility? dismantling blow?)

(Sb geared towards ant enchantress reanimator ichorid most of all; aura of silence is nuts against ant, cb owns loam and burn, reb comes in against most of the decks, even ichorid.)

How about this deck?

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [ROE] Island (1)
1 [R] Plateau
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SHM] Firespout
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [TE] Humility
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

You should have a quite good matchup vs aggro. 8 removal + cb/top.

Vs. combo you have cb/top and good cards in the board (canonist is tutorable)

Thopter foundry/sotm is a combo that doesnt need you to tap about during your mainphase.

E. tutor can search various cards and missing combo parts.

The manabase seems quite ok, but i think theres no need for an a.ruins because it is way too random and only useable for a countered combo part (and a s.top).

T.crypts are better than relics because a relic might be too slow on the draw vs dregde or reanimator.

The sb is made against: aggro (helix), reanimator+ ANT+ various decks (spierce), GY-oriented decks (crpyt) and again combo (e. canonist)

What do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by APodeschwa

You should have a quite good matchup vs aggro. 8 removal + cb/top.

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There seem to be a disconnect here. The decks packing 11+ removal have some trouble with aggro, and CB+Top isn't really super good there. Couple that with the fact that 4/8 of your removal will never kill a tarmogoyf or anything bigger than a nacatl and you have a real issue on your hands with aggro.

3 Firespout is the right number if you want to go that route, and more spot removal (+1-2 PtE). I've been down that route before, Firespout is a great Zoo hoser if you can get rid of their Goyfs and KotR, but in the long run I've gone back to Wrath of God. One more mana for a stronger catch-all and it hits stuff like Rhox War Monk, actually Goyf, and stuff like Progenitus and friends.

I used to endorse the red splash, but getting blown out by 4+ toughness dudes and a reliance on Humility, the black splash seems stronger. (Stronger is relative though, my "last"-last outing with LS I still got crushed).

So I played one of my newer lists this past weekend at two different events. I did not run the exact same list both days but the changes for day two were mostly fix's to the mana base. I am not going to post the list at this time but for reference it was a very traditional build and was only UW.

Swiss of the Lotus Event: 80 something people.

Round One vs Mono Black Suicide: Win 2-0

Round Two vs Enchantress: Lose 1-2. Lost game one to Mana base issue that was fixed for Sunday, Lost to resolved Dovescape then Vexing Shusher game 3, nice combo.

Round 3 vs Mirror {Eli Kassan, teammate who made top 8} Lose 1-2 Lose game 3 to mana base again, vow to fix mana base 7- Basics is not as good as I had hoped, adding fetch's for Sunday.

Round 4 vs Enchantress: Win 2-0

Round 5 vs Bant: Win 2-0

Round 6 vs Stasis: win 2-0

Round 7 vs Bant: win 2-0

Top 16 Playoff's:

Round 1 vs Meathooks win 2-0
Round 2 vs Tes win 2-0
Round 3 vs Straight Burn lose 0-2. Failed to draw counters game 1 and lost to mana issues game 2.

Ended day in tenth going 7-3.


Sunday GP trial.
Round 1 vs New Horizon's win 2-1
Round 2 vs Bryant Cook (TES) win 2-1
Round 3 vs Bant win 2-0
Round 4 vs Bant win 2-0
Round 5 vs ANT win 2-0 (Yes I made my opponents play out all of the rounds of swiss)
Top 8 vs ANT win 2-0
Top 4 vs New Horizons win 2-0
Finals vs ANT (guy from round 5) lose 2-1. He cast Duress and Ad Nauseum turn two of game 1 and won the die roll. Game 3 it took forever to find a win con and he killed me by casting two tendrils from his hand with more storm than I could counter out.

Ended trial day 7-1 for the day.

I only posted this to show that "Landstill" is still very viable as a concept. I only ran UW. I did not run Jace in the MD and only ran one in my SB as an extra control match up card plus an extra Reanimate hate card. I did not run Counterbalance or Top. I ran 1 Elspeth and 1 Humility in the MD and did not have any splash color cards in the MD or the SB. The rest of the deck was just straight forward cards that have been played in various Landstill decks for years now. I did splash a Trop and a Scrub in the deck but it was only for the 3 Explosives in the deck. I'm not sure if the duals will stay but they were not a hindrence in any way and once each day I needed EE up to 3 that won me the game so for now they will stay.

@Konsultant: Congrats! That's a great performance against a lot of top decks/players. It's amazing that Landstill might still be a great call in this meta. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense though. With so much Zoo and Bant, which are essentially creature-based decks, sweepers and removal will win tons of games. I understand why you might be reluctant to share your list, but I'm still curious, haha

Btw: Stasis in round 6?? What was his record? That's quite bizarre and interesting. I would like to see his decklist too!

Edit: How do people feel about the power/consistency of Enlightened Tutor toolboxes these days? I understand it's not true card advantage... but niether is FoW. The main thing in my book is being able to have the exact card you want at the right time. I'm working on a list incorporating a few ideas I've seen and liked, but I'm trying to choose between raw card drawing and a tutor toolbox... Any imput would be helpful.

Congratz on that finish. Traditionnal lists are traditionnal for one reason : they have proven their effectiveness.

I personally believe red is still the way to go right now because of all the aggro. I may be wrong, but you have faced 0 aggro deck, except maybe that meathok (assuming its sliver).

In an environment light of aggro, I think UW or UWx is a very good idea. No need to waste all those precious spots for removal ineffective against fatties.

In the GP trial he played against four bant decks, and even the bant control is pretty aggro, I wouldn't discount it on that, and I think the straight UW list may be strong enough on its own if you've got enough removal to take care of everything.

I'd love to see your list since you mentioned some card choices already, its always good to see what wins and dissect it/try to make it stronger.

You're such a tease.

(Good work, keep it going!)

I played LandStill at the dutch team challenge sunday and did pretty good. I didn't meet alot of aggro though..

R1: UW Tempo 1-1
Humility + Elspeth wins g1 eventually but I can't do much g2. We don't have time for a third.
R2: New Horizons 2-0
Pretty good matchup since I play 6 plows. I never get hit by a creature.
R3: CounterTop 2-0
Game-1 I Snare his CB and play standstill. Factories take the game from there. G-2 he mulls to 5 with 1 land and I have Waste + Vindicate and draw a second waste as well.
R4: Faerie Stompy 2-0
I mainly win game-1 by blowing up a chalice for 1 twice, while only playing 2 explosives. G-2 I win through a fast B2B by fetching basics and a Sea and then vindicating it.
R5: Battle of Wits.. 0-0-1
This was bound to go to time although I got very close. He had explosives for my decree. He killed one elspeth and had a jace to bounce the tokens from the second. By the time I finally found my 2nd factory (with about 15 cards in the deck, having shuffled over 15 times easily) he lands a runed halo on factory. I play explosives for 2 with him at 1 life ready to attack for the win but he had the counterspell and all mine were played or extirpated. Funny matchup, shame I didn't win.
R6: Show & Tell / Eureka 2-0 (Team 2-1)
Game-1 I stop his Show & Tell and factory & elspeth win it. Game-2 I let SnT resolve. He drops Emrakul, I drop Humility. he doesn't have Krosan Grip, and I vindicate emrakul. Elspeth & Factory finish it.

My list in short:
23 land (4 Tundra, 1 Sea, 1 Scrub, 4 Strand, 2 Delta, 2 Plains, 2 Island, 4 Factory, 3 Waste)
6 Plows (4 StP, 2 PtE)
2 WoG
2 Humility
3 Wins (2 Elspeth, 1 DoJ)
2 EE
3 Tops
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
9 Counters(4 FoW, 3 CS, 2 Snare)
2 Vindicate

You know what I just thought about, that would completely own Merfolk if you splashed red? Grim Lavamancer. They (usually) run no removal for the guy, 1cc makes him way easier to squeeze through Daze/Cursecatcher than Firespout, and he's virtual card advantage for the entire game. The deck is more than capable of having enough cards in the graveyard to feed him, and he can remove every single Merfolk they put into play. If they manage to get a couple of pump Lords out, all it takes is a single Swords or something to get Lavamancer functional again.

Only problem is, he's lackluster vs Zoo. Firespout is much better vs them. Then again, Grim Lavamancer would be a sideboard card, and if the deck is splashing red, it's probably running Firespout maindeck anyway.

Yay, nay?

Daze is the only danger there, cursecatcher is only instants and sorceries. But I could see that being good for red splash.

JamieW89: Good Job, its always interesting to see those decks pop up like battle of wits. Looks like you did pretty well overall, what place did you end up in and how many players were there?

This was my list from this past weekend:

4x STP
2x PTE
3x WOG
1x Humility
1x Elspeth
3x DOJ
1x Eternal Dragon

4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x FOF
3x Spell Snare
3x Counterspell
4x FOW

3x EE

23x Lands.

Like I said it's just straight forward UW Landstill. I'm still toying around with it some but it's the basic shell. Goblins/Merfolk/Ichorid and combo all require some SB cards to consistently beat. This is not a new thing. Sure some meta changes can improve some game one's but I didn't want a meta build i wanted a straight forward approach.

Congats on the results and good list! 2 questions though: How was it with only 23 land and E. Dragon? Also, theres no CoW in the deck, was that an issue at all? CoW can help tremendously and I rarely find it to be a dead card.

I think that really depends on what kind of land lineup went into it, how many wastes, tolaria west, etc. Personally seeing the list I would assume the land lineup is something like(taking into account what konsultant said about the scrubland and trop):

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Plains
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island

edit: made it a more true list