Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
a non-tribal metagame.
This is what Legacy's meta has been for the last couple months, yet I don't see a single MUC deck showing up ANYWHERE in that time. And I disagree strongly with your RiP Miracles analysis; as a RiP Miracles player, you have no way to stop CounterTop once it's online, your creature removal (Shackles, Keg) is mostly blank as well, and I'm bringing in REB from the board to wreck you.
EDIT: Not to mention you have no out versus Rip/Helm insta-win other than hoping to counter it.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
This is what Legacy's meta has been for the last couple months, yet I don't see a single MUC deck showing up ANYWHERE in that time. And I disagree strongly with your RiP Miracles analysis; as a RiP Miracles player, you have no way to stop CounterTop once it's online, your creature removal (Shackles, Keg) is mostly blank as well, and I'm bringing in REB from the board to wreck you.
EDIT: Not to mention you have no out versus Rip/Helm insta-win other than hoping to counter it.
Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Counterspell are enough to stop CounterTop, especially when Misdirection and Divert are additional Force of Wills and Spell Pierces in counterwars. And even if Countertop lands, I can still play Jace through it and once a deck plays Jace in this matchup, that deck basically wins 95% of the time.
Back to Basics slows down any greedy manabase like the kind used by Miracles.
And postboard, I have the option of bringing in Chalice of the Void to stop REB and like half of the other stuff in the Miracles deck (if I board out either Pierce or Divert) and I definitely board in 4 Vendilion Clique in place of Shackles, and put additional pressure on the control player that way.
It definitely is not a "slam dunk" matchup for MUC like say, the Combo matchup is, or the Lands.dec matchup is, but I'd say for 2/3 sb it's a solid 60% or so in MUC's favor.
And why does MUC never show up anywhere? The same reason you are arguing with me right now. There are so many preconcieved notions about MUC. For some reason, Legacy players are so faithful to their dual lands that there is basically zero acceptance of any deck that can be competitive without them. It just doesn't seem right to most Legacy players who have been fetching Dual lands for their entire lives. Add to that the fact that the Goblins and Merfolk matchups are legitimately horror shows for MUC, and most people who tried playing MUC when Goblins and Merfolk were dominant (for most of Legacy's existence) have bad memories of those matchups and immediately discount MUC.
Also, most Magic players do not have the time or the desire to test new deck archetypes constantly. When it comes tournament time, they usually stick with what they are most comfortable playing. It takes time to become comfortable with the avenues of play necessary to be successful with MUC. A novice would end up trying to counter things they shouldn't counter, and/or wouldn't know when to play certain bombs like B2B and Shackles. Just like any other deck, you need to become familiar with its strengths and weaknesses. How many people would be willing to put in the time to do this with a completely different deck? I think most would rather just play their Delver deck, which is powerful and consistent, or play their combo deck, which gives faster kills.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Resolve your Jace through my CounterTop? And how exactly do you plan on doing that when I keep a 4cc spell in my top 3 cards until I don't need to anymore? Or when my CounterTop blanks a fair amount of your countermagic, allowing me to win the counterwar at the expense of almost no cards used?
Greedy manabase for RiP Miracles? I play 7 basics, which is more than enough to cast everything in my deck + have mana for countermagic backup/spin Top. Hell, I play Blood Moon in my own maindeck, so your Back to Basics are basically 4 more dead cards versus me.
You're delusional if you think MUC has a 60% matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo. I'll be at SCG Open Milwaukee; please, please, please come to it so I can curbstomp you with my Junk and RiP Miracles builds.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Resolve your Jace through my CounterTop? And how exactly do you plan on doing that when I keep a 4cc spell in my top 3 cards until I don't need to anymore? Or when my CounterTop blanks a fair amount of your countermagic, allowing me to win the counterwar at the expense of almost no cards used?
It doesn't work that way all the time and you know it. Countertop is excellent at stopping 1cc and 2cc but after that, it is highly variable. I've slipped 3cc and 4cc past CounterTop so many times I've lost count.
Quote:
Greedy manabase for RiP Miracles? I play 7 basics, which is more than enough to cast everything in my deck + have mana for countermagic backup/spin Top.
That's great, but at the very least Back to Basics will at least be a double Sinkhole because you definitely aren't fetching all basics in G1, and in G2 past the mid-game point you will be playing some nonbasics.
Quote:
You're delusional if you think MUC has a 60% matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo. I'll be at SCG Open Milwaukee; please, please, please come to it so I can curbstomp you with my Junk and RiP Miracles builds.
You really have no idea what you're talking about re: this newer MUC decklist because you haven't played this deck, and then you come into this thread just to troll someone who is trying to create open discussion about a fringe archetype? Seriously, what is wrong with you?
If you aren't contributing to a deck discussion, why are you coming in just to troll about a deck that you clearly don't play and do not care about?
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
So... you said you can push through your Jace against my CounterTop, and you said that CounterTop is effective at stopping 1cc and 2cc spells (which a fair portion of your countersuite is), yet I'm letting you resolve Jace, why? CounterTop = I'm winning the counterwar. And that doesn't even involve ETutor tricks when I have CounterTop online. Seriously, you aren't resolving Jace when I have CounterTop online. Ever.
Also, a competent RiP Miracles players will NEVER fetch non-basics in the first few turns against an unknown opponent. I'm not sure what Miracles player you've been playtesting against, but I'm fairly certain he's terrible.
And regarding "I don't know what I'm talking about" Kadaj and I were the main proponents of MUC back in 2006-09, talking about Sphinx of Jwar Isle vs. Morphling vs. Call the Skybreaker, etc. I suggest you start from Page 1 of this thread and read all the way through. Sounds like you're the one in need of a history lesson.
And MUC is a fringe archetype because it LOSES to many decks, not because players are too stubborn not to play with it. If it truly had positive matchups versus everything except Tribal and Zoo, MUC would be the most played deck in Legacy. Why? BECAUSE PLAYERS WILL PLAY WHATEVER IN ORDER TO WIN. It might be RUG Delver one week, RiP Miracles the next, Sneak and Show after that, etc. Honestly, you are starting to piss me off.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
So... you said you can push through your Jace against my CounterTop, and you said that CounterTop is effective at stopping 1cc and 2cc spells (which a fair portion of your countersuite is), yet I'm letting you resolve Jace, why? CounterTop = I'm winning the counterwar. And that doesn't even involve ETutor tricks when I have CounterTop online. Seriously, you aren't resolving Jace when I have CounterTop online. Ever.
1) MUC is stopping CounterTop from resolving probably 80+% of the time. 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will, 3 Misdirection, 3 Divert maindeck for MUC vs. 4 Force of Will, 1-2 Counterspell, and 2-4 Spell Pierce for RIP/Miracles? Who's winning that counterwar, I wonder?
2) If RIP/Miracles manages to stick Counterbalance AND Top in those rare situations when MUC doesn't stop Counterbalance... you can only stop my Jace from resolving if you put one of the following cards on top of your library: Supreme Verdict, Jace, Venser, or Elspeth. Most of these lists play 1 Venser and 1-2 Elspeth at most, 1-2 Supreme Verdict at most, and 3 Jace. That's it. And none of them are fetchable with E-Tutor. And one of them probably has already been played (and countered) at that point in the game.
Quote:
Also, a competent RiP Miracles players will NEVER fetch non-basics in the first few turns against an unknown opponent. I'm not sure what Miracles player you've been playtesting against, but I'm fairly certain he's terrible.
You can't play into the mid-game and beyond with Miracles and not play some nonbasics unless you are purposely holding lands back and slowing yourself down in the process. Statistically speaking, you are not going to draw only fetchlands the entire game. You have to rely on some nonbasics, and then if I have Back to Basics in play, those are one-shot mana sources for you.
Quote:
And regarding "I don't know what I'm talking about" Kadaj and I were the main proponents of MUC back in 2006-09, talking about Sphinx of Jwar Isle vs. Morphling vs. Call the Skybreaker, etc. I suggest you start from Page 1 of this thread and read all the way through. Sounds like you're the one in need of a history lesson.
Wow, that's wondeful that you've been posting in this thread a long time ago when the deck was different and the metagame was completely different. Have you tested with MUC in the current metagame at all? No, because you've been too busy playing your Miracles deck or your BG Junk deck. Your arguments carry significantly less weight than people who are actually trying to make the archetype work right now and are constantly playtesting it vs. the tier decks in the format, both offline and online.
Quote:
And MUC is a fringe archetype because it LOSES to many decks, not because players are too stubborn not to play with it. If it truly had positive matchups versus everything except Tribal and Zoo, MUC would be the most played deck in Legacy. Why? BECAUSE PLAYERS WILL PLAY WHATEVER IN ORDER TO WIN. It might be RUG Delver one week, RiP Miracles the next, Sneak and Show after that, etc. Honestly, you are starting to piss me off.
Lands.dec destroys all aggro and is an extremely solid choice in an aggro-heavy metagame but will never be played in mass numbers due to the style of play required (slow and grinding) and the esoteric nature of some of the cards. Aluren is one of the great combo decks but people don't have experience with it and don't want to buy Imperial Recruiter. These are just two examples of good decks that will never see lots of placings because of extraneous factors.
And it's not like MUC hasn't placed at all. Some other lists have placed in the top8 in SCG tournaments not too long ago. These were more of the Energy Field builds, but they were MUC variants nonetheless.
Again, I don't understand why you are being so rude and aggressive in here. You clearly have no interest in playing MUC anymore, so why are you here trolling?
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
RiP Miracles plays Helm, which can be fetched with ETutor. Also, your maindeck has exactly 4 spells at 4cc (your Jaces) whereas RiP Miracles has more than 4 spells at 4cc. Again, if I resolve CounterTop, you're not going to win counterwars and won't stick Jace.
Also, the reason why I'm still in here is because of your ridiculous claim of 60-65% positive matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo.
Flames removed. -zilla
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
RiP Miracles plays Helm, which can be fetched with ETutor. Also, your maindeck has exactly 4 spells at 4cc (your Jaces) whereas RiP Miracles has more than 4 spells at 4cc. Again, if I resolve CounterTop, you're not going to win counterwars and won't stick Jace.
Also, the reason why I'm still in here is because of your rediculous claim of 60-65% positive matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo. This statement is just so horrendously dumb that you deserve to be called out on it.
Again, Counterbalance is only going to resolve at most, at a 20% rate against MUC. MUC has a far superior suite of counterspells. To back up Counterbalance, all the UW control has to offer is basically 4 Force of Will and a mixture of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare and Counterspell that is far smaller in number than what MUC is running.
Again, in the small number of situations that the UW deck DOES stick Counterbalance, then it still needs to find one of the few 4cc spells in its deck or Jace is going to resolve. It's possible, but it's not remotely guaranteed like it is when you tell me that Counterbalance will stop the 1cc and 2cc spells. I'd peg it at about 40-50% hit rate, based on experience.
And again, if you are in here to troll people who you disagree with because of some preconceived notions about a deck that you haven't touched in years in a metagame that has changed dramatically... then why? You are being nothing but a useless troll that is not contributing anything of value.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
And your statement "MUC has a 60-65% matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo" is contributing value? Jesus Christ you are dumb. I'm through.
I actually backed up my points with card-for-card matchup analysis and would be happy to go even further in depth, whereas all you are doing is making baseless claims about matchups that you have probably never tested in the past 1-2 years, and then resorting to endless stream of ad hominem attacks. Win?
I mean, if you really want to have a discussion that's worth anything, maybe you can go matchup-by-matchup for me and tell me which archetypes would pose problems for MUC in this current metagame besides Tribal aggro? Just like I broke down the combo matchups by noting all of the counterspells, and the post-board answers MUC brings in, and the lack of answers to those answers from the opposing combo decks... And then tell me, based on the cards in the list I posted, why those matchups would have an edge?
Of course, you won't do that because you have no experience with these matchups, nor do you have the initiative to do so. So you'd rather just troll.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Well, have you played any of the matchups you make claims on? Because the way I see it, the way you sell your deck seems way too theorical to me, and not practical enough. Most of the time, when you make card to card claims like that, you end up in a situation where it the idea sounds good, but practicaly fails to be as good as advertised. As such, I also fail to see how this deck can have a 65% matchup against almost everything you can see in legacy. I feel like you are overestimating your counters by a lot (7 of them being actual 2 for 1s against yourself, 4 of them actually costing 2 mana to play, 4 of them being one of the most situational card ever (not to mention misdirection). You are also only drawing cards using visions (4 turns after you play it) and with jace, with no way to filter your hand, as such (no brainstorm-fetch, cards that really should be there, IMO). With all this, I can easily imagine you being completely out of cards after an early counter war (over, say, a counterbalance, or something like a turn 2 counterbalance, turn 3 counterbalance with force pierce backup), just to draw more counterspells and not enough juice to actually kill your opponnent. This is especially true when the way you sell it, you seem happy of 2 for 1 ing yourself, but in truth, this isn't something a control deck should be happy to do against other control decks.
I also would like to tell you that if the miracle player goes to find his duals on the first turns of the game, he DEFINATELY is doing it wrong. Like, really, really wrong. The deck is made so it can shut down wasteland, as such I fail to see how you can be so sure that back to basics will be a card with actual text on it, in that matchup. Another point I want to add is that Lands isn't doing well rght now because people are packing their grave hate in good mass. (not to mention that recent scgs have seen u/w/r RIP miracles do very well, that I believe just won't lose to lands). Also, you might be overestimating your 12 post matchup by an actual mile...
Those are my 2 cents on the topic.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThediscoPower
Well, have you played any of the matchups you make claims on? Because the way I see it, the way you sell your deck seems way too theorical to me, and not practical enough. Most of the time, when you make card to card claims like that, you end up in a situation where it the idea sounds good, but practicaly fails to be as good as advertised. As such, I also fail to see how this deck can have a 65% matchup against almost everything you can see in legacy. I feel like you are overestimating your counters by a lot (7 of them being actual 2 for 1s against yourself, 4 of them actually costing 2 mana to play, 4 of them being one of the most situational card ever (not to mention misdirection). You are also only drawing cards using visions (4 turns after you play it) and with jace, with no way to filter your hand, as such (no brainstorm-fetch, cards that really should be there, IMO). With all this, I can easily imagine you being completely out of cards after an early counter war (over, say, a counterbalance, or something like a turn 2 counterbalance, turn 3 counterbalance with force pierce backup), just to draw more counterspells and not enough juice to actually kill your opponnent. This is especially true when the way you sell it, you seem happy of 2 for 1 ing yourself, but in truth, this isn't something a control deck should be happy to do against other control decks.
You never 2 for 1 yourself using Misdirection or Divert on targeted removal. You at least break even, and in situations with Hymn to Tourach, you always gain card advantage.
Using Misdirection in counterwars is no different from Force of Will. 2-for-1ing to fight over and win a battle to land Jace, or Back to Basics, for example, is well worth it when that bomb does irreparable damage to your opponent's long term chances to win. I don't care if I emptied most of my hand if I just landed Back to Basics on a guy who just tapped all of his nonbasic lands. Similarly, I don't care if I emptied most of my hand when I land Jace, because Jace wins 95% of the time he lands.
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I also would like to tell you that if the miracle player goes to find his duals on the first turns of the game, he DEFINATELY is doing it wrong. Like, really, really wrong. The deck is made so it can shut down wasteland, as such I fail to see how you can be so sure that back to basics will be a card with actual text on it, in that matchup. Another point I want to add is that Lands isn't doing well rght now because people are packing their grave hate in good mass. (not to mention that recent scgs have seen u/w/r RIP miracles do very well, that I believe just won't lose to lands). Also, you might be overestimating your 12 post matchup by an actual mile...
It's virtually impossible to play entirely with basics if you are the Miracles pilot. Yes, often he will fetch basics, especially early in the game, but the deck also plays duals, and he has to use them going into the mid-game. And if Back to Basics is on the board, all nonbasic lands for him turn into Lotus Petals. That is a powerful effect against a control deck that is hungry for mana. It may not be as game-breaking as playing Back to Basics against a tapped out RUG Delver player who has very little other options, but it is still a strong play that can mean the difference between winning and losing between two Control decks.
Have you seen the 12post manabase? The deck relies entirely on one of two things to win: A.) ramping up its nonbasic lands to eventually play an uncounterable fatty like Emrakul or B.) cheating said fatty into play with a spell that is easily countered by 12 spells in the MUC deck
Basically speaking, Back to Basics wrecks the 12post manabase, and the MUC pilot doesn't really have to worry about fighting counterwars and can counter the relevant business spells, which are few and far between because most of the deck is predicated upon ramping its mana.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
And yes, I've been testing this deck off and on for more than 3 years now. I gave this up for a brief period when Vengevival made a mockery of every other control deck, and then again when Goblins + Cavern was all the rage, but other than that I've been faithfully testing variations of this deck all of those 3 years.
However, now that Goblins and Merfolk are all but out of the picture, and the degenerate Survival of the Fittest decks are history, this deck is incredibly well-positioned. All of the aggro is mostly slower mid-range stuff right now, and everyone's playing combo.
I've personally tested, offline and online, every single matchup in the Legacy metagame, from RUG Delver to High Tide to Stoneblade to Enchantress to MUD to you-name-it.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
I've personally tested, offline and online, every single matchup in the Legacy metagame, from RUG Delver to High Tide to Stoneblade to Enchantress to MUD to you-name-it.
Then you would be happy to show me those Top 8s that MUC has been making.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
22 Islands is not that much land. It's just enough to ensure that you can cast Jace pretty reliably.
Again, control decks like having land. Vedalken Shackles is mana-hungry. If anything, 22 is not often enough.
22 islands. With no thinning, filtering, and shuffling in the color that provides the best thinning, filtering and card quality effects. You clearly don't understand statistics. Over a 6-9 round tourney a deck with 22 islands will never win, you'll top deck miserably, be land flooded and get your sack crushed when you open on stuff like
Island
Island
Island
Island
Shackles
Jace
Shackles
You know what immediately makes that hand marginally keepable, the best card in Legacy, Brainstorm and a fetch land
Island
Flooded Strand
Island
Island
Jace
Shackles
Brainstorm
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
You know the idea is good when nedleeds is suggesting that you run Islands and Brainstorm. :eek:
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
You never 2 for 1 yourself using Misdirection or Divert on targeted removal. You at least break even, and in situations with Hymn to Tourach, you always gain card advantage.
Using Misdirection in counterwars is no different from Force of Will. 2-for-1ing to fight over and win a battle to land Jace, or Back to Basics, for example, is well worth it when that bomb does irreparable damage to your opponent's long term chances to win. I don't care if I emptied most of my hand if I just landed Back to Basics on a guy who just tapped all of his nonbasic lands. Similarly, I don't care if I emptied most of my hand when I land Jace, because Jace wins 95% of the time he lands.
Do you understand that fair decks side out force of will against other fair decks? Do you understand why they would do that? Using misdirection in counterwars in the same as force of will, but being reduced to use force of will (note the choice of word here. Implying that you are in a situation where you HAVE to use it, removing a blue card in your hand) in a counter war is already something NOT THAT GOOD. It is something you do WHEN YOU ARE FORCED TO DO IT (pun intended). If you think that playing a control deck is all about emptying your hand in order to play ONE bomb, then you are horribly wrong, I believe. Please give me situations where misdirection would break even, against your average deck. The way I see it, you probably are just going to be empty, with nothing on the board, nothing in your hands. This is why you use misdi usually, in a combo shell. You play it in your favorite sneak show deck, in order to have one of your big guys come in play ASAP, and kill your opponent ON THE SPOT. Empty handed? who care? I win. Now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
It's virtually impossible to play entirely with basics if you are the Miracles pilot. Yes, often he will fetch basics, especially early in the game, but the deck also plays duals, and he has to use them going into the mid-game. And if Back to Basics is on the board, all nonbasic lands for him turn into Lotus Petals. That is a powerful effect against a control deck that is hungry for mana. It may not be as game-breaking as playing Back to Basics against a tapped out RUG Delver player who has very little other options, but it is still a strong play that can mean the difference between winning and losing between two Control decks.
That's not true. How mana hungry do you think he really is? Do you believe he needs to entreats you for 10 in order to kill you? Because the way I see it, with what? 8 basics? he can literally play anything in his deck, AND defend it, if need be. But, I mean, what do I know. It's not like I was actually playing back to basics in my own miracle build at some point because I wanted to keep it u/w, or that I even played miracles at some point in my life. Nope. Difinitely not the case AT ALL.
Finally, if you think you can simply rely on back to basics to get you out of trouble against 12 post (which, to be honnest, was what I thought you would tell me), then you are horibly wrong. Especially when a deck like yours can't even kill him quickly. Have you played that matchup? Again. You give me this "but it works on paper!!!" bulshit, when in practice, you probably will be very disapointed...
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
22 islands. With no thinning, filtering, and shuffling in the color that provides the best thinning, filtering and card quality effects. You clearly don't understand statistics. Over a 6-9 round tourney a deck with 22 islands will never win, you'll top deck miserably, be land flooded and get your sack crushed when you open on stuff like
Island
Island
Island
Island
Shackles
Jace
Shackles
You know what immediately makes that hand marginally keepable, the best card in Legacy, Brainstorm and a fetch land
Island
Flooded Strand
Island
Island
Jace
Shackles
Brainstorm
It's not as bad as you make it out to be.
Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.
And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.
And this hand:
Quote:
Island
Island
Island
Island
Shackles
Jace
Shackles
Is actually a perfectly good hand vs. aggro decks. And even against non-aggro decks, it's not terrible in that A.) it ensures you are hitting all of your land drops and will play Jace comfortably on turn 4 if you want to, and on turn 5+ with land open. B.) because of all of the counterspells/misdirect in the deck, I can keep it feeling confident that I will hit at least one of them (FoW, SP, CS, MD, D) within the next 2 turns.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThediscoPower
Do you understand that fair decks side out force of will against other fair decks? Do you understand why they would do that? Using misdirection in counterwars in the same as force of will, but being reduced to use force of will (note the choice of word here. Implying that you are in a situation where you HAVE to use it, removing a blue card in your hand) in a counter war is already something NOT THAT GOOD. It is something you do WHEN YOU ARE FORCED TO DO IT (pun intended). If you think that playing a control deck is all about emptying your hand in order to play ONE bomb, then you are horribly wrong, I believe. Please give me situations where misdirection would break even, against your average deck. The way I see it, you probably are just going to be empty, with nothing on the board, nothing in your hands. This is why you use misdi usually, in a combo shell. You play it in your favorite sneak show deck, in order to have one of your big guys come in play ASAP, and kill your opponent ON THE SPOT. Empty handed? who care? I win. Now.
Using Force of Will to fight over a bomb is perfectly acceptable. There's a reason that Combo decks play Force of Will - to land a bomb. MUC is not much different in that regard. It plays bombs like Vedalken Shackles (bomb vs aggro that ends the game against creature decks in the long run), Back to Basics (bomb against most manabases that ends the game in the long run), Jace (complete bomb against everything that wins the game like 95% of the time it sticks on an empty board).
Misdirection breaks even:
Opponent plays Abrupt Decay targeting my Back to Basics. I cast Misdirection pitching a blue card (-2 cards for me), targeting Decay to redirect it to his Deathrite Shaman (-2 cards for him 0 Abrupt Decay+Deathrite Shaman). Net card advantage for me? +0 or breaking even. More importantly, I protect my Back to Basics (that will wreck house vs. a greedy manabase) from uncounterable removal
Opponent plays Thoughtseize targeting me. I cast Misdirection pitching a blue card (-2 cards for me), targeting Thoughtseize to redirect it to his hand, forcing him to discard one of his nonland cards (-2 cards for him - Thoughtseize+card in hand). Net card advantage for me? +0 or breaking even. More importantly, I protect a bomb in my hand (B2B, Jace, Shackles, etc) from his discard and probably win because of it in the long run
Misdirection comes out ahead:
Opponent plays Hymn to Tourach targeting me I cast Misdirection pitching a blue card (-2 cards for me), targeting Hymn to redirect it to his hand. (-3 cards for him - Hymn+two cards in hand). Net card advantage for me? +1. More importantly, I protect my hand from his discard and in turn rip apart his hand with his own discard spell!
Basically speaking, against targeted removal or targeted discard, Misdirection at least breaks even 90% of the time. Divert in those situations would obviously be +1 card advantage in each one, as well.
Against opposing counterspells, Misdirection only breaks even against an opposing Force of Will or Misdirection obviously, but if I win a counterwar over a Jace early in the game, or a Back to Basics against a tapped out opponent playing mostly nonbasic lands, then what do I care if I'm down a card? Sticking Back to Basics or Jace against most decks is the equivalent of completing a combo kill. The only difference is that I'm guaranteed victory a few turns from now instead of right now.
Quote:
That's not true. How mana hungry do you think he really is? Do you believe he needs to entreats you for 10 in order to kill you? Because the way I see it, with what? 8 basics? he can literally play anything in his deck, AND defend it, if need be. But, I mean, what do I know. It's not like I was actually playing back to basics in my own miracle build at some point because I wanted to keep it u/w, or that I even played miracles at some point in my life. Nope. Difinitely not the case AT ALL.
You do realize that the Miracles player, over the course of 5+ turns will probably draw some nonbasic lands? It's not like the deck is entirely fetchlands. What is he going to do? Keep them in hand and hope for fetchlands to come his way instead? No, he will be forced to play nonbasics that he topdecks. This happens alot in these matchups. Yes, he can fetch basics with regularity, but if you think that a Miracles player can consistently stick with nothing but basics in every game, you are delusional.
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Finally, if you think you can simply rely on back to basics to get you out of trouble against 12 post (which, to be honnest, was what I thought you would tell me), then you are horibly wrong. Especially when a deck like yours can't even kill him quickly. Have you played that matchup? Again. You give me this "but it works on paper!!!" bulshit, when in practice, you probably will be very disapointed...
I've played against 12post at least 15+ times online and offline and never lost a full 2/3 sb match. The combination of Back to Basics, a plethora of countermagic that stops him from playing any relevant spell (because you don't counter the mana acceleration typically, and thus he can never land Show and Tell vs. you), Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique form the sideboard for games 2-3... It's incredibly bad matchup for 12post, and that's lots of experience talking.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
It's not as bad as you make it out to be.
Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.
And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe
Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.
And this hand:
Is actually a perfectly good hand vs. aggro decks. And even against non-aggro decks, it's not terrible in that A.) it ensures you are hitting all of your land drops and will play Jace comfortably on turn 4 if you want to, and on turn 5+ with land open. B.) because of all of the counterspells/misdirect in the deck, I can keep it feeling confident that I will hit at least one of them (FoW, SP, CS, MD, D) within the next 2 turns.
Doing nothing until turn 4 seems fine in legacy. Look if you aren't playing chalice on 1 or trinisphere or a 30 creature Merfolk deck you should be playing Brainstorm. It turns your second shackles into more countermagic vs. combo, and your useless divert on turn 6 into shackles against man decks. If you don't understand how a card that is a pillar of the format works then I might as well just do this
http://www.p-m-g-i.com/Beating_Head_Against_Wall_C2.jpg
than have a rational MTG conversation with you. I'm sure you'll draw the exact card for the exact game state in sequence across a 6+ round tourney and rule the world.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
It's not as bad as you make it out to be.
Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.
And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe
Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.
That hand would lose to a decent aggro hand almost every game unless you top deck the nuts, but you can't because you aren't running Brainstorm. Like, the point he's making isn't that you won't find enough lands with 22 lands, it's that none of them are fetches and you're not running brainstorm, in a mono blue deck. There has to be -really- good reasons to not run Brainstorm. And you don't have one. In fact you're shoving extra copies of cards you don't want extra copies of in order to maintain consistency, when you could shave 1 from 4 of them, run 4 brainstorm and 8 fetches, and your deck is legit 100 times better off the bat. Don't be a hipster about it, you aren't breaching new territories by not running Brainstorm, you're willfully and purposely hurting your deck's consistency.
By simply cutting a misdirection (put it in the side), shackles, b2b, and a keg, and plopping 4 brainstorms in the deck, dropping 8 basics for 8 fetches (22 lands is perfect for a deck with brainstorm and no wastelands), you now have way more flexibility without sacrificing anything. Bad hands are good hands, things that need immediate answers can be found, you can plan out the next 3 turns and take over the game, you're less susceptible to discard, your deck becomes fundamentally better at doing exactly what you want it to, more often, without any drawbacks whatsoever.
