[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Sorry for the double post but I just gotta say maindeck darkblast is the shit. Literally takes over games. Darkblast is house right now.

Edit- ok goddik 19 lands IS feeling greedy, got mana screwed all day yesterday. I think alcohol may have contributed to this idk. Im considering your suggestion to drop a FoW to the board since this deck has a low blue count it cant always utilize force. I stand by darkblast though. Im even thinking of a removal suite of 3 snuff/2 liliana/2 darkblast and moving both pulses to the board. Darkblast can deal with souls and most of stoneblade by itself and machineguns maverick while feeding stalker. Lastly a shout out to goyf! Between the added sorceries, liliana and library plus targeted discard our farm grows the biggest goyfs around.

btw, i agree with Nightwolf. I would try to make room for a pair of Jaces if I was playing the traditional list. I do feel like the midrange list does most of the same stuff better though.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Darkblast can deal with souls and most of stoneblade by itself and machineguns maverick while feeding stalker.

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you are aware that when dredgin up darkblast 3 times to deal with souls you are loosing 3 cards... So while you "deal with" souls the stoneblade palyers trades 4 for 1 and starts killing you with the other stuff he draws.

Ok to clarify what I meant is that it reoccurs which does allow it to deal with souls, just not as efficiently as pulse, which I also have along with dread of night.

Ok I got this bitch dialed in.

20 Lands

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
3 daze
3 hymn
3 IoK

2 maelstrom pulse
2 snuff out
1 darkblast

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library
1 LftL

Board 15
2 dread of night
3 spell pierce
4 surgical extraction
1 darkblast
2 perish
3 duress

This deck needs to be played again, its just so good. The disruption package trumps weaker reactive countermagic, at least the nonfree variety. Maindeck dredgers have so much synergy its nuts and props for suggesting loam, its insane and so is maindeck darkblast. The more aggressive game plan and dredgers has me even considering the 4th tombstalker because its just so easy to cast them lately. Feels good to be back on these colors man. The only regret is not being able to squeeze the 4th ponder, not that ive been missing it so far and the other 'engine' cards make up for it. If at all possible I always try to max the cantrips but the list is so tight I dont think I can fit it except as the 61st card. Any ideas here?

@Tombstalker: Dude that list looks CockDiesel as fuck, I can't wait for my Lilianas to come in so I can shit all over people with Team America again. Glad you enjoyed the Loam suggestion although I can't take full credit for that. The Sylvan Library looks sweet as well. 20 lands looks pretty tight - what exactly is your manabase? I know TA lists don't traditionally run any basics and I obviously haven't seen your manabase yet but that might be something to consider - a single basic island.

Props for brewing that list, can't wait to play it. Plz write a tournament report next time you go shit on your LGS.

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atropos
@Tombstalker: Dude that list looks CockDiesel as fuck, I can't wait for my Lilianas to come in so I can shit all over people with Team America again. Glad you enjoyed the Loam suggestion although I can't take full credit for that. The Sylvan Library looks sweet as well. 20 lands looks pretty tight - what exactly is your manabase? I know TA lists don't traditionally run any basics and I obviously haven't seen your manabase yet but that might be something to consider - a single basic island.

Props for brewing that list, can't wait to play it. Plz write a tournament report next time you go shit on your LGS.

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Thanks man! I cant take full credit for this either since someone else had the idea to drop stifles for more business. Ya library, loam, lilianas theres just sooo much functional overlap and synergy its disgusting. Manabase is the usual 9 fetch, 4 seas, 2 bayous, 1 trop 4 wastes. Ive been toying with losing a wasteland to bring the 4th ponder back. Probably not worth the exchange but wasteland isnt as vital in this build and occasionally forces mulligans.

Got top2 (pricesplit) in our local legacy event today. Played my usual list, the only changes I made were -1 Preordain, -1 Sylvan Library, +2 Temporal Mastery. Wanted to see how the card performs in a tournament before BoM and I have to say it is pretty strong in this deck. Team America is the perfect place for TM as we play Force, Brainstorm, Ponder and seven aggressive fliers. Got some other techs but they'll remain secret till after Annecy :)

Regarding Darkblast: Its a sweet sideboard card but I wouldn't play it MD. You (at least I do) want your MD as flexible as possible and not being able to kill many relevant creatures with your removal would be pretty annoying for me. But if it works for you thats fine. I would be interested in your further results with the card.

Regarding Loam: It can be strong but I'm not sure if it fits the gameplan of this deck. You want to disrupt your opponent every turn by playing discard, creatures and free removal backed by free counters. Playing loam gives your opponent a turn to breathe and to recover from your early disruption. Its pretty slow and besides that, what are you going to do with those extra lands? You dont really need more than three on the battlefield, so its only really usefull if you also have a Brainstorm in hand. If you want to play loam I definitely would play a more controlling version like BUG control.

Regarding basic Island: Nope. BB is crucial for this deck. Thats why I only play one Tropical cause you almost never want to see it before turn three. I would encourage you to test it yourself. Then you'll see how much it impairs the performance of the deck.

Spike- Looking forward to your results and your secret tech. Could you elaborate more on TM? I tested it in canadian but that deck just doesnt have the power to abuse it like TA can. My list is modeled after your tapout philosophy then it diverges from there but I gotta say thanks because your inovation brought my TA back from retirement with a vengeance.

On darkblast, I could say all the usual stuff but obviously you know its power. Instead ill just say it fits. Snuffs are the nutz but 3 can cause problems and I like a x/1 removal spell at will. Lastly the two dredgers really help facilitate stalkers.

Loam is functional overlap of the 2nd library/3rd liliana that builds on each. Obviously great with brainstorm but ponder, library and liliana each abuse loam too. I have never really bought into it in TA either until now but so far im never sorry to draw it. Thing is it brings another angle of attack with wasteland, completely denies mana screw and also gets rid of mana flood when combined with cantrips. Its pretty oppressive. As for what I do with the extra lands, I play them and/or toss them to liliana or brainstorm or use them to wastelock. What ive found so far is that casting it after hitting 3 lands facilitates the 4th drop without losing momentum and gains sick CA. Its pretty amazing to be able to have 5 lands in play and a grip of cards for brainstorming. Anyway thats my recent experiences with it as a 1-of, I may change my mind but for now im really liking it.

Regarding basic Island I agree it wont work. I didnt even like it in canadian but BB makes it a complete nonbo in TA.

@Spike: Yeah dude, I'm looking forward to seeing your list as well. Best of luck!

@Tombstalker: Alright, well nevermind about the basic island, it was just a thought.

Boom! I knew TA was gonna coming back haha! I wonder if this means we will have to start considering dismember again? At least I shouldnt locally for now but you never know.

Atropos- sorry for the short reponse on that basic. Its a good idea in theory to avoid wasteland and still cast threats, countermagic and cantrips for more lands. In fact canadian thresh can get away with one because of their increased blue density pushing 30 count plus dismember and lack of double color spells. I even used a basic for awhile to handle the mirror and it was decent but overall I found the advantages to be less than the drawbacks. A single basic wont prevent someone from mana screwing us but LftL might. That card has been kickass since I put it in, just not sure now if im being OCD in trying to fix something that aint broke, so to speak. Anyway it stays for now and I doubt it will ever be less than SB for me. Its that good and thanks for suggesting it.

Hell yeah DTB status.

@Tombstalker: I figured the necessity to get BB was the case, just wasn't sure if it was at least possible to squeeze in an island. Also, any thoughts on adding Temporal Mastery as a 2-of?

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@Tombstalker: I figured the necessity to get BB was the case, just wasn't sure if it was at least possible to squeeze in an island. Also, any thoughts on adding Temporal Mastery as a 2-of?

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IDK man, I threw it in today to test a little and didnt really like it but I didnt spend much time with it. That being said spike posted above with what seemed like decent results. Its ok to great if not drawn in the opening 10 or so I would think, and crappy any earlier then that. Id like to hear what other players have found in testing TM.

Regarding this deck's upgrade to DTB status, I think it's probably due to the confusion of naming conventions for UBG legacy decks. Although there is certainly plenty of overlap in card choices, there are at least 3 different archetypes associated with the 'Team America' name: the faster tempo-oriented lists; the midrange aggro control lists; and the plodding control lists with late-game inevitability. I think if TC decks (or whatever database they are using to calculate DTB status) properly separated the archetypes, none alone would have enough top-8 prevalance to be considered a DTB.

However, the common thread here is that non-basic hate is probably down and combo is probably up, making any UBG archetype a potentially good choice going forward. It also helps that black as a splash color generally gives you a stronger chance against Maverick than red. Esper Blade is also somewhat easier for the archetype to deal with than the traditional U/W Blade lists -- they have less relevant counterspells, more susceptibility to mana disruption, and Lingering Souls isn't exactly that difficult for black to handle out of the board. RUG remains *slightly* favorable for TA, as discard and Tombstalker are trumps in this matchup.

Anyways, back to the aggro/control tempo discussion...

We can run circles around main deck choices, but I think what may be more important right now is discussing the SB. Here are some cards that I think are really good right now:

Darkblast
Massacre
Diabolic Edict
Spell Pierce / Dispel
Hydroblast / BEB (burn is a real threat... PoP = GG. It also has applications elsewhere)
Life from the Loam (as a singleton)
Thrun, the Last Troll (our version of Sulfuric Vortex)
Dread of Night (our version of Sulfur Elemental)
Graveyard hate in general (Dredge is coming back as a force to reckon with -- going into a tournament with less than 4 devoted slots is folly)

If I were going to play a tournament this weekend, my SB would probably look like this:

3 Spell Pierce
4 GY Hate (probably 2 Nihil, 2 Grafdigger's)
2 Dread of Night
2 Diabolic Edict
1 LftL
1 Thrun
1 Darkblast
1 Jace, TMS

wcm8- I think your dead on in your assessment, on the confusion of UBg classification but especially regarding the metagame.

Regarding SB options I agree with most of your choices and thrun is a really nice addition I hadnt considered recently, might have to dust mine off. Why edicts over perish though? Liliana does edicts better and Sigarda, host of herons plus opposing thruns and maverick in general make me think a couple perish are mandatory. Ive never regretted them anyway.

Perish is fine instead, or a 1/1 split. I'm thinking Edicts more for the Show and Tell/Reanimator and RUG matchups.

Another idea I'm testing is the singleton sideboard. It's slightly weaker against everything since you don't overload against any particular strategy, but it's potentially stronger in a random tournament because you'll likely have *something* to bring in. Here's a sample list, which of course can be modified:

1 LftLoam
1 Jace TMS
1 Thrun
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
1 Counterspell / Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Another idea I'm testing is the singleton sideboard. It's slightly weaker against everything since you don't overload against any particular strategy, but it's potentially stronger in a random tournament because you'll likely have *something* to bring in. Here's a sample list, which of course can be modified:

1 LftLoam
1 Jace TMS
1 Thrun
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
1 Counterspell / Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate

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I tend to favor this style of SB for decks, especially with a cantrip package. I tend to focus 2-3 slots towards particular match ups, then 1-2 slots to wider application stuff. For these wider application slots I'd err on the broader application side for the flex slots.

IE for an American meta figure ~5 slots dedicated to Maverick, ~5 slots against RUG and ~5 flex.

I'd probably run something like

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I tend to favor this style of SB for decks, especially with a cantrip package. I tend to focus 2-3 slots towards particular match ups, then 1-2 slots to wider application stuff. For these wider application slots I'd err on the broader application side for the flex slots.

IE for an American meta figure ~5 slots dedicated to Maverick, ~5 slots against RUG and ~5 flex.

I'd probably run something like

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip

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The main critique I'd have of your SB is the lack of late-game control bombs like Thrun and Jace. I'm not saying these guys are *essential*, but there are certain matchups where having them as an option is incredibly strong.

I also think that the SB should perhaps focus on some of the most common, weak matchups we have -- such as Burn and Dredge.

So thinking about it a bit further, I may want the following:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast (these also can counter a game-ending Blood Moon or Sneak Attack. also relevant again with Goblins making a comeback due to Cavern of Souls.)
4 GY hate (a mixture seems fine, especially since the extirpate comes in vs. Loam and grafdigger's comes in against Blade and possibly elsewhere. Splitting Nihil and Tormod's means that an oppossing Reanimator player will have a bit more difficulty if they bring in Pithing Needle)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Duress
1 Thrun, TLT
1 Jace, TMS
1 Perish / Virtue's Ruin
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night (obviously relevant against Lingering Souls, but also clears away a significant portion of Maverick or at least gets them in DBlast range)
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse / Pernicious Deed / Engineered Explosives / Krosan Grip / Seal of Primordium (Pulse is the most versatile, but having a sweeper can be nice. K Grip/Seal are worth considering in this slot as well, though I'm not sure they're a necessity.)

edit: 1UG cascade is not worth it. UG would have been sweet

In theory cascade bear would help find our sb hate but do you think he's really better than hymn or the 3rd stalker? I haven't tested so its an honest question. My initial thoughts are no because it waters down our disruption for a 2/2 body + Cantrip, but I could be wrong. Not that it isn't an undercosted and potentially powerful card, just not sure its powerful enough for TA.

19 lands is perfect Ive found btw, although I have dropped the 4th wasteland rather than a true source/fetch. With the slightly higher curve now and absence of stifle I honestly feel this is the right move to relegate wasteland to anti utility land duty and of course obvious mana screw opportunities while sometimes using as a colorless source. LftL main or side means 3 is enough to wastelock or deal with reoccurring manlands IMO. Still torn on where to put loam ATM.