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You use Tarnished Citadel over Undiscovered Paradise because it makes it easier to do stuff like cast Ancient Grudge, Breakthrough X=1, activate Coliseum, etc. Yes it sucks to bolt yourself, but it sucks more if you have to tap Paradise on turn 1 to cast something and then can't win on turn 2.
Play the other land first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I mean, you're not defending the idea to keep a hand with Citadel alone and hope for drawing a second land, are you?
Especially on this deck...
Cephalid Coliseum is notoriously bad at casting Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe.Quote:
Originally Posted by indefinite.soul
I've not yet had the extra damage from Tarnished Citadel be relevant. Even against Zoo.
Why would you need a second land in this deck other for some corner-cases?Quote:
Originally Posted by indefinite.soul
G1 it's totally irrelevant aside from activating Coliesum (which should never ever be your only land, except in some corner cases) and G2/G3, Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Wispmare, Firestorm, flashback of Ancient Grudge and plenty other stuff only costs 1 mana, so why would you need a second one?
Tarnished Citadel is a fine card, you won't have to tap it for colored mana too often. And in MUs where life matters, you board in Ancestor's Chosen, which makes gives you plenty of life to survive.
€: High 5, Anusien!
You have a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
what do you guys think about the white leyline from m11?
Ugh... it still doesn't save us from Leyline of the Void, Faerie Macabre, Relic of Progenitus, Planar Void, Jotun Grunt, Jailer, etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustas
Sounds like a bad card to me.
I cast Thug and Narcomoeba pretty much all the time.Quote:
Why would you need a second land in this deck other for some corner-cases?
What do you guys think of a sideboard with Duress and Unmask?
Along with Therapy it respondes everything but Leyline and Bokuja.
For Leyline we would have Chain and for bokuja we cry.
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress ( Maybe 3 for a 3-3-3 with Unmask and Therapy)
4 Unmask(Maybe 3 for a 3-3-3 with Duress and Therapy)
3 Firestorm (1 MD)
Discard doesn't answer Tormod's Crypt if they play...or if they draw it after you Duress them (I hate when that happens).
Usually, I've seen people answer graveyard hate by luring them to crack it. Obviously Leyline and Bog are excluded from that statement, but you can force a Crypt/Relic pop by Grudge/CoV or just by dredging up enough good stuff. A more narrow supplement to CoV is Wispmare for enchantment hate. There are some green cards like Simplify or Emerald Charm. Just be careful with Charm because Wheel of Sun and Moon does exist thanks to UW Tempo.
With Reanimator losing gas, I'd imagine that Faerie Macabre is going to be subbed out for Crypt or Relic (or Ravenous Trap maybe) anyway.
HI guys,
Just wanted to share my experience using this deck last weekend on a 36-man tourney. I was seeded 1st after the swiss (5-1) but lost at the first round of the playoffs. >_< I finished 5th overall. anyways here's my list:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Golgari Thug
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
Round 1 vs Affownity (I think that's what it's called - Affinity w/ FOW): Win 2-1
Game 1 was a turn 3 kill via FKZ. I won the roll and played pimp at turn 1. He played an artifact land and passed. I dredged during my upkeep and got a lot of goodies. Got him on cabal therapy for FOW, then breakthrough FTW. (1-0)
Since I'm still considered a noob using this deck, my sideboarding was very sloppy. I think what I did here was +3 Ancient Grudge -3 Careful Study.
Game 2 was lost coz I kept a 6 card hand with no outlet. Honestly, I didn't know what I was thinking when I kept that hand. 2 Myr Enforcers made quick work of my mistake. (1-1)
Game 3 was pretty much like Game 1 (first turn outlet) with the exception of him playing a crypt and me dredging into an ancient grudge before I did a cabal therepy for FoW, then Grudge on crypt, discard dredgers, and breakthrough FTW. (2-1)
Round 2 vs Survival: Loss (1-2)
Game 1 was a turn 3 kill via FKZ. Turn 1 Imp. Turn 2 Breakthrough and got ichorids, and bridges. Turn 3 FKZ! (1-0)
Again with the sloppy sideboard: +3 Ancient Grudge +3 Ray of Revelation +3 Faerie Macabre -3 Careful Study -1 Breakthrough -3 Tireless Tribe -1 Sphinx of Lost Truths -1 Dread Return
Game 2 was a lost cause coz I kept another crappy 6 card hand (I'm still afraid of being more aggressive when it comes to mulligans) I only kept it coz I had a macabre and a ray in that opening hand. He did that loyal retainer + Iona on black trick and I was dead soon after. (1-1)
Game 3 was similar to Game 2 coz I kept another crappy hand and got beat up by two Tarmogoyfs and I got Crypted and Macabred as well >_< (1-2)
Round 3 vs FaeStalker (I honestly had not idea what his deck was coz it was a very quick round): Win (2-0)
Game 1 was again won by FKZ. I went first and played my outlet and passed. He played a volcanic island on his turn so I assumed that he had FoW so I just waited til I dredged into a cabal therapy so that I can get his FoW and Breakthrough FTW. (1-0)
Sideboard woes: -3 Careful Study +3 Ancient Grudge
Game 2 he played a land + crypt and then passed. I used DDD to get my dredger on the yard and got a lot of goodies. My opponent then decides to use the crypt when he saw that I had Ichorid and Bridge in the yard. With no sign of additional hate cards, I went DDD for a few turns till I got a narcomoeba, some dredgers and cabal therapy. I used therapy for FoW and got 2! When the coast was clear, I DRed Iona on Blue. (2-0)
Round 4 vs MBC: (2-0)
Game 1 was the same as my other game 1 wins. FKZ FTW!
Sideboard: +3 Ancient Grudge +3 Ray of Revelation -3 Careful Study -1Tireless Tribe -1Breakthrough -1Sphinx of Lost Truths
I won Game 2 on sheer luck! He extirpated my bridges, Trolls, Ichorids and even got a Withered Wretch in play. I'll just describe the last few turns of that game. He was down to 5 life due to early Ichorid and Imp beatdown. I stuck with the plan and kept dredging every turn and was down to 7 cards in my library. My life count was at 6 due to the wretch and bob beatdown. I gambled and decided to dredge using Stinkweed Imp hoping for a miracle. I got 2 Narcomoebas! I passed hoping I could still chump block his guys and delay the game. On his upkeep, Bob gave him a vampire nighthawk bringing down his life count to 2 and I thought that it was game over for me. But what's weird is, he didn't cast nighthawk and played an extirpate on my Stinkweed Imp! He only had 3 lands in play which meant that he needed a dark rit to cast nighthawk. Turns out he didn't so my Narcomoebas flew in FTW. (2-0)
Round 5 vs Aggro Loam: Win (2-0)
Game 1 FKZ Win (1-0)
Sideboard: +3Ancient Grudge +3Ray of Revelation +3Faerie Macabre --3 Careful Study -3Tireless Tribe -1Sphinx of Lost Truths -1Iona -1Dread Return
Game 2 he played chalice for 1 and I was able to dredge into an ancient grudge to destroy the chalice. Then it was the same story. (2-0)
Note: I didn't know how aggro loam worked at the time. >_<
Round 5 was supposed to be ID but my opponent needed to win so we just played for it.
Round 5 vs CounterTop ProBant (Again, I'm not sure what it's called) (2-0)
Game 1 Cabal Therapy for FoW, Breakthrough then FKZ FTW (1-0)
Sideboard: +3 Ancient Grudge +3 Ray of Revelation -3 Careful Study -1Tireless Tribe -1Breakthrough -1Sphinx of Lost Truths
Game 2 was a little different coz he got 2 Goyfs, 2 War Monks, and a Noble Hierarch in play but no hate cards. I had 6 tokens, a 13/13 Troll and a pimp in play. I was unsure of how the battle would end so I waited for another DR and got another 13/13 Troll in play then I attacked with just the troll and pimp, he tried to kill the troll by blocking it w/ the Goyfs and Monks. But he didn't know that Troll had a regen ability so I won the next turn. (2-0)
At that time I was seeded 1st in the playoffs since some of the guys that had 4 wins decided to ID. (5-1)
Playoffs T___T
Round 1 vs Aggro Loam (Yup, the same aggro loam that I beat in the swiss) Loss
Game 1 was a turn 2 kill by FKZ!
Sideboard: Since we talked after our first match, he mentioned that he had Wheel of Sun and Moon as SB so what I did was:
+3Ancient Grudge +3Ray of Revelation -3 Careful Study -1Sphinx of Lost Truths -1Iona -1Dread Return
This was a fatal flaw on my plan since I didn't include the macabres thinking that I wasn't able to use them during our first encounter
I kept a 6 card hand with land, therapy, breakthrough and dredger. I play therapy to get my dredger in the yard then passed. He played another chalice for 1 and passed. I dredged and got nothing. tired to breakthrough for 1 and still got nothing! I lost to a terravore and goyf.
My luck ran out and I kept a 6 card hand with pimp, a land, and breakthrough. I played land + imp then passed. He play Mox D + land then chalice for 1. Next turn since I didn't have any dredgers, I played breakthrough for 1 and got a land, tireless tribe and 2 breakthroughs! Still no dredger. I kept the breakthrough hoping my luck would change the next turn. He wasted one of my lands so I couldn't cast breakthrough for 1. I was able to get a thug a few turns after but when I dredged I got, land, ray, ray, land. He had Terravore and Goyf in play so I shook his hand and called it a night. Now I know how aggro loam works! >_<
Lessons learned that day:
1. I need to work on my sideboarding and mulliganing (LOL) skills.
2. I was also thinking of cutting Sphinx coz most of the times, I just boarded it out after game 1. I was only able to use Sphinx a couple of times on that day and most of the times I was just wishing for a gold land on my opening hand rather than a lone coliseum.
3. I wasn't able to use Iona that day mainly because I wasn't sure what color to choose so I think I'll keep her MD and just do more research on our meta.
4. I was also thinking of cutting Chain of Vapor coz I really don't like to mull for an anti-hate card. I didn't run into leylines that day but I think (hope) ray of revelation can do the job.
For clarity, you control both Bridge triggers. This means that it does not matter who is the active player when creatures trade in combat; you can choose to get Zombies either way.Quote:
"Your" trigger will resolve first, so you get tokens, than "your opponent's" trigger will resolve, exiling all bridges from your graveyard.
(note that you do actively have to choose to get Zombies)
Cool. just in case my opponent gets into technicalities, would this be the correct way to stack the abilities?Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Stack "When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below." first.
Then stack "Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."
Alright, point taken, casting Thugs and Narcomoebas happens quite often. But in this case, you will always have another land which can produce colored mana - if you have TC and CC, well, bad luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
I end up mulliganing a lot of hands that have just Cephalid Coliseum for mana. I also love having multiple sources of colored mana in my hand, so I don't lose to some nonsense like Force of Will + Wasteland. And I've cast the front side of Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation.
So, does anyone disagrees that this is, at least near, the optimal Main Deck for led-less bloodghast-less version?
My questions are:Quote:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
1- I agree that Main Deck Dread Return targets are overkill, but, since you don't need the 4th Thug and Tribe (not to mention other cards), wouldn't it be interesting to "extend" you sideboard?
2- Wich Sideboard are you plaing after the banning of Mystical Tutor?
My opinion is (considering that the answer for the 1st question is "Yes", and running Iona and Terastodon MD - please discuss about this as well):
4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor Chosen
1 Furystoke Giant
1 Realm Razer
I'm skeptical about Furystoke and Razer, although I see why people thought of them. What if I remove them and maybe extra Ray(?) to run Unmask?
Don't let the topic die. Come on people!
Byrant lastnight I played this deck at PLay the Game and I was running Angel of Despair and it was great all night! killed so much stuff for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
A friend of mine suggested something that I thing deserves at least some testing.
Playing 4 Leyline of Anticipation either MD or SB, don't quite know.
http://image3.examiner.com/images/bl...ticipation.jpg
It looks a little underwhelming at first, but think about it. In the MD we don't have a single instant spell, just being able to cast all your stuff at instant speed is a fine advantage. But if you look deeper into it, you'll see that it allows you to play around several hate cards, given you have the right cards in the grave. Not Leyline of the Void, but that's another story.
Let's see what it can do for you:
Say the opponent starts with a Crypt/Relic and you have Leyline of Anticipation:
- You can start with a Imp/Tribe/Study and sit on it dredging with what you get. When the opponent tries to break the hate, you can go off in response with Breakthrough/Study/Coliseum. Then you can get enough tokens and a reanimation target into play before the hate removes your grave. Outside of Wrath and maybe Firespout (probably not) you win. But that shouldn't be that much of a problem either, beucase you can instant speed Therapy.
Say your opponent Bolts his own cat in response to a Therapy:
- You can either respond with a draw Spell, flipping more Moebas and then Dread Return getting a huge amount of Zombies or simply sacrifice your other non-token creatures getting a bunch of zombies with the Bridges that otherwise(no Leyline in play) would be gone for good before you could do anything else.
- It allows you to let your opponent gessing what is your play all the time, forcing him to let mana open and being careful with every spell he casts. You can just cast everything on his EOT!
I could go on listing the situations that the Leylines gives you an advantage, but I'll let you figure that out by yourself.
A you can see, the Leyline adds a hole new level of interaction between Ichorid and other decks. The real question are:
- Is this what the deck needs to rise to the top?
- Do the advantages warrant the inclusion of 4 dead cards in a somewhat tight deck?
- Does it help you fight hate enough to justify its inclusion?
Please discuss.
While the basic idea seems cute, quite strong even. Having to mulligan into leyline makes it a lot worse. This deck needs to mulligan quite often as it is. Realistically you won't be able to hardcast this thing, and if you can, it will most probably be too late. And the decklist is tight enough as it is, without having a 4 of in there that's basically dead unless you have it in your opening hand.
The thing is, you don't have to mulligan into it. We are not building a deck that only works if you have Leyline in your starting hand, like Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void combo. If you get Leyline it's great, if you don't... oh well. You're going to flip some dead cards on your dredges, but we already have plenty of those, 4 more aren't going to make that big of a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Djenin
I agree to the point where Leyline isn't essential to the combo, and mullin' to 6 and getting a Leyline and missing a combo piece sucks.
Now, this decks doesn't draw a lot of cards. At least not in a conventional way. Odds of you drawing a dead Leyline exist, but are small enough and probably won't matter that much. So I don't think that's much a of reason to dismiss it.
The real question is if the benefits are good enough to warrant it's inclusion and if those advantages add enough to the main plan or are superflous like Bloodghast/Unexplored Paradise.