[Deck] Zoo

@spankme: My manabase is as follows, and it's a great manabase.
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
2x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
2x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Plains

You could cut the second Savannah for a Horizon Canopy, or a fetchland. I used to run Canopy and know it's strengths and such. This is a stock Zoo manabase and is pretty tight beside the suggestions I've made.

And yeah i would cut all your Shushers all together because Monoblue Control and Merfolk, like Otter said, don't run too many counters. Swords i think is really freaking good in the kind of Meta youre going into.

Here is a sample SB:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Price of Progress
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddock Teeg/Other hate bear

@Baileyarch: with all due respect but if you ask people to help you out with your list don't expect them to do your work for you. You could've looked it up yourself and copy paste it. Besides I do not know if you have changed your list since you've posted it the last time.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Here is a sample SB:
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Price of Progress
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddock Teeg/Other hate bear

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I would try to fit in another Teeg. In my opinion you want to maximize your chances winning against Combo and Stax. Teeg helps enormously. Cutting a Swords or a Grip would do (I would choose Swords).

So I played following SB:

3x Krosan Grip
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Price of Progress
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Gaddock Teeg

This sideboard is strange. I found it not doing much too often (when I was winning games post board without seeing even cards I brought from sb) or on the other side not doing anything, when I was loosing games with hand full of theoretical hate. The example could be game with Stax, when there was 1-1 in games (I lost first pretty quickly, won second thanks to Lavamancer and some burn in addition to his Tomb) and in game three I got Trinisphere on his first turn, and couldnt do anythign despite two Grip's and one Teeg on starting hand.

If you couldn't hit three land, it's not like you'd ever beat a Trinisphere, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. At least if you get three land out, you can Teeg and stop him from locking you out under with with a Smokestack or Geddon.

I could hit even more than three lands, but unless they're basics or fetches allowing me to fetch forest, I cant really play much of my threats due to recurring Wastelands. Stax seem to be fatal matchup.

Also, pre board I had enourmous issues with AggroLoam. Post board I had Crypts to solve loam issues and Knights of the Reliquary site on his side, but it wasnt that easy anyway, and I eventually lost second game too.

I've played AggroLoam a couple of times and I too find it a hard match-up. It doesn't surprise me that you couldn't win. I haven't been able to win any myself (yet). I think you have been a bit unlucky against Stax. I would consider Aggroloam more a fatal matchup than Stax.

I actually wonder how people sideboard against Loam? I usually just board in 3 PoP and ignore trying to remove their graveyard. What do you guys do?

FYI I just came in second in a micro gpt with only 9 people (WTF?). A single observation:

This deck is incredibly consistent. I mulled once over 6 rounds (cut to top 4)

2 questions:

1. Are the new RGb aggro loam lists with pulse, ee, and chalice more difficult matchups for us? I got my ass handed to me twice once in swiss and once in the finals. It seemed like he had CoTV or Zuran orb all the time and my 4 Pridemages and 2 boarded in grips had to work much too hard.

2. It seems some people have cut the Horizon Canopy(s). Why as they have been nothing but awesome for me!

@Nelis: I was lazy and didn't wanna type it all out at the time, and i was just trying to help another Zoo player out, so sue me i suppose. Don't get all weird on me mah friend :cool:

@jazzykat: I've found Aggro Loam freaking problematic as hell. Even the lists without CotV can blow you out. I try to fetch basics then they Devastating Dreams anyway. I just try and race them while they are getting their Loam engine going. Burn Crusher ASAP. And I've had games where even if i recovered from DDreams, the just wish for Chainer's Edict or Firespout. I think the matchup is miserable.

I ran Canopy when i first picked up the deck and it was either alright, or sucked. Then Nacatl got printed and i can recall several times i lost games just because i didn't have a fetch or Forest/Plains. I could see myself running it again though. It's not a bad card.

Well, AggroLoam isnt THAT hard. My opponent simply got very lucky post board game.
First of all, kill Confidants, which is easy with Chains.
Second, bring in the Crypts - not only they stop Loam for a while, but also makes his KotR killable by burn sometimes. When they arent, kill them with PTE or STP (I have two in sideboard).
Third, DONT kill the Crusher immediately. His ability is a trigger, so it is a way better to wait either for Devastating Dreams being played, and triggers from Crusher going on stack (he's killable by Bolt or Helix at that moment) or wait to see what is going from top for your opponent. You can even kill him by removing counters from Jitte in response to any trigger from him.
The reason I've lost was due to my opponent getting KotR, Finks (!@$!$%), KotR from top of his library, while I had Two goyfs, bolt on hand and he was on 6. Bad luck this time.

People cut canopies because they're worried about consistency, but I think they're great and would never cut them. If you're having trouble with aggro loam, play ee in your board. It's a great supplement to grip and pridemage against their chalices and orb. You may not even need grip at that point.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

@Nelis: I was lazy and didn't wanna type it all out at the time, and i was just trying to help another Zoo player out, so sue me i suppose. Don't get all weird on me mah friend :cool:

@jazzykat: I've found Aggro Loam freaking problematic as hell. Even the lists without CotV can blow you out. I try to fetch basics then they Devastating Dreams anyway. I just try and race them while they are getting their Loam engine going. Burn Crusher ASAP. And I've had games where even if i recovered from DDreams, the just wish for Chainer's Edict or Firespout. I think the matchup is miserable.

I ran Canopy when i first picked up the deck and it was either alright, or sucked. Then Nacatl got printed and i can recall several times i lost games just because i didn't have a fetch or Forest/Plains. I could see myself running it again though. It's not a bad card.

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No prob.:smile:

I don't know about Canopy. I used to run none, then 2 and now I'm thinking of going back to 0. What you described has happened to me a few times too. And it's also a miserable card when its your only green and/or white source and you are stuck on 3 (or even 2) lands. It happened a couple of times that I took quite some damage that it became problematic.

So that will be -2 Canopy +1 Savannah +1 Arid Mesa (or maybe +1 Savannah +1 Plateau) which would make my manabase:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah

@Lion: Yeah I already put 3 EE in my sb after your success with it.

Frankly speaking, I dont see how EE can be helpful in AggroLoam matchup (that isnt that hard, to repeat once more). His costs are spreaded across the mana curve - mox diamond, various chalices, confidant, KotR or Crusher. And the creatures are easily killable/easy to disable by graveyard hate, burn and clever play. I could see bigger issue in Maze of Ith, that can slow you down incredibly.
Stax, this is really miserable matchup. Trinisphere, followed by Wastelands and Armageddon is an auto loose.

Not that I would advertise playing EE, but Chalice in play with any number of counters = cmc0.

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Originally Posted by spankme

Frankly speaking, I dont see how EE can be helpful in AggroLoam matchup (that isnt that hard, to repeat once more). His costs are spreaded across the mana curve - mox diamond, various chalices, confidant, KotR or Crusher. And the creatures are easily killable/easy to disable by graveyard hate, burn and clever play. I could see bigger issue in Maze of Ith, that can slow you down incredibly.
Stax, this is really miserable matchup. Trinisphere, followed by Wastelands and Armageddon is an auto loose.

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Then I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree. The way I see things.

I haven't tried it out yet but the way I picture it against Loam EE can:
- Take out their moxes or chalices; It gives you a tempo boost since you can play EE for 0 while also putting down one or two creatures (depending on the turn of course) so you can still apply pressure the next turn with your creatures and get rid of those cards the turn you attack.
- It can get rid of (multiple) creatures on the board so you can keep your burn spells for the dome. This is prob their best feature. A lot of times you can't burn away their Tarmogoyf(s) so you need Path To Exile (hoping they don't have chalice). Since you only run 4 having a few EE's can help tremendously and they're very versatile anyway. Best scenario is to get rid of a Tarmogoyf and a Confidant or 2 Tarmogoyfs at once.

The trick fighting stax is to take your time (which you have). Sure game 1 could be hard especially when you don't draw Pridemages but after sb-ing you have much more hate for them than they for you.

As long as you have a Teeg and fetch basics theres hardly any problem (apart from maybe Oblivion Ring on your Teeg). Not only do they need a Trinisphere turn 1 to hold you off they also need that Armageddon.

But before they can play Armageddon they also need a humility or moat (to keep you at bay) and they need a wincon as well. Since they don't play that many moats, humilities and armageddon there's a big chance they don't draw them anyway or much too late.

You can even ignore Trinisphere an keep your artifact/enchantment removal for Chalice so you can still apply pressure by playing your creatures or use your path to clear the way. Or keep them on moat or humility should they slip trough.

To me it's most important to keep Humility off the table because it screws your Pridemages. I'm not saying it's an auto win. It can go horribly wrong, but I do not fear this match-up.

And imagine siding in EE, you can play it for three and get rid of Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring all at once! Or get rid of Mox Diamond and Chalice at once! Good times!

EDIT: I'm a bit too enthusiastic here since Teeg and EE dont work together but they might complement each other even so.

EE=0 kills, all of CoTV, all EE on the board, Mox Diamonds, AND Zuran Orb. That seems pretty good to me....

EDIT: and it only costs 2 of any mana to cast and operate!

except for the part you skip turn two...to crack it...

Banned for repeated failure to follow site rules. -zilla

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Originally Posted by bulaxas

except for the part you skip turn two...to crack it...

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If I don't have any 2 drops then yeah, I'll spend the turn getting rid of what they played last turn. It sure beats sitting there with a whole hand of uncastable cards...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spankme

Frankly speaking, I dont see how EE can be helpful in AggroLoam matchup

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i will use a quick anecdote to show how good EE is against aggro loam. round two of the last tournament i played with zoo my opponent opened game 3 on the play with land diamond chalice at 1. i played forest and said go. he played goyf and passed back. on my turn 2 i lay my land EE for 0 and kill his diamond and chalice. he makes another land drop and casts loam. i untap play 2 one drops and path his goyf in his upkeep. without EE I never win this game.

Proper capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. -zilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yadda

i will use a quick anecdote to show how good EE is against aggro loam. round two of the last tournament i played with zoo my opponent opened game 3 on the play with land diamond chalice at 1. i played forest and said go. he played goyf and passed back. on my turn 2 i lay my land EE for 0 and kill his diamond and chalice. he makes another land drop and casts loam. i untap play 2 one drops and path his goyf in his upkeep. without EE I never win this game.

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what is your sideboard?
thanks

Proper capitalization is required on these boards. Please use it in the future. -zilla

I can kinda see EE and Zoo's own personal mini-Deed/Disk/Sweeperthingy.

It also gives you an out to ETW too. Not like you couldn't handle them anyway, but it helps.