Been playing some 4c CBT with some success. How's everyone's testing going? I've only been having trouble with Thrun, which I solved with really big goyfs..
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Been playing some 4c CBT with some success. How's everyone's testing going? I've only been having trouble with Thrun, which I solved with really big goyfs..
I don't think Firespout is really necessary right now. IMO cards like Grim Lavamancer/Snapcaster are more flexible. I agree with DragoFireheart that Trinket Mage has been powercreeped, the card is uber slow, I'd rather have more Snapcasters. I'm currently running this RUG Countertop list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Goyf
2 Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace TMS
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
9 Fetches (Feeds Grim/ Great with Top)
4 Volc
3 Trop
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Riptide Lab (some late game reach is useful)
I built this list to Face rape combo which seems like the archtype to beat right now. I think Counterspell is pretty slow now and really hard to cast before Combo goes off. To up the 2cc count, I decided to play 2 copies of Snapcaster and the ever useful Fire/Ice. Fire/Ice has upped in usefulness by being able to 2-1 often now by nabbing Snapcasters + Clique/Grim/Noble Heirarch etc. Also, Spell Snare is at its best right now by being able to totally stop Snapcaster along with Animate Dead/Exhume and Infernal Tutor. That card is my pick for best conditional counter in a Countertop Deck.
There be will some amount of REBs, Firespouts, Nature's Claim (Grudge is bad now that UW Stoneblade is less popular, you'll always see some random, like Enchantress/Aluren) and Surgical Extractions. Surgical Extraction is really useful vs Reanimator while being a good anti Snapcaster card. Though I do admit that Extracting a Snapcaster target still gives him a Coral Merfolk, sometimes, there just aren't better cards to board in. Surgical Extraction also works well with your own Snapcasters, so it's a nice bonus.
I'm not sure how I feel about the lack of white for STP. We lose to a resolved KotR or some other big beater.
-2 Bolts, + 2 Dismember should help against KOTR. Even then some amount of Sowers will be needed post board. Jace helps somewhat against Kotr. Between him and Dismember, KOTR should be handleable though he is a pain to remove.
I dunno, I never liked playing CBT without STP. I always felt naked without them to be able to remove big dudes.
I just thought I would post the list I used in Nashville for feedback and link to the report I made. All feedback is thoroughly welcomed and I will answer any questions as well.
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
5 Islands
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Counterbalance
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Tutor-Control
I wouldnt shave the bolts... They work very well with snapcaster, I would shave spell snare since you already have cbt. I worked on a rug list as well and bolt is great. You don't have to remove kotr.. You can just race with with multiple bolts.. Dismember is a lot worse since you take 4 in this deck... The racing plan is out the door.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Sfm and cbt are difficult combos to play together because they are both very mana intensive strategies and you often need to establish them both early on.. Which means they both take up the same deck slots...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalapin
Can't drop Sfm without protection and cbt early might get you killed from fast threats..
sorry double..
- Firespout solves the later problem. As for the former, you likely wouldn't play a Tarmogoyf without protection either considering how threat lite this deck is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I would gladly drop a Tarmogoyf without protection if I thought it would slow my opponent down at all. But in many matchups and situations I own't use the Force even if I have it. Obviously if they're Zoo and I have to resolve this Goyf/SFM to win, I'm going to use the Force. But if we're two sloiwsh decks a lot of times I'll run the Tarmogoyf out there just to draw a card from my opponent's hand. In CB mirrors all the time I'd use Goyf as a test spell on turn 2 and then be able to cast Counterbalance turn 3 with Spell Snare backup. Or they'd cast Tarmogoyf on turn 2, I'd answer with CB on turn 2 and then easily resolve my Goyf on turn 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Consequently, I don't think Stoneforge Mystic and Counterbalance fight. In fact I think they work pretty well together.
- How exactly is Goyf going to slow down someone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
=Merfolk Island walk around him.
= Zoo plays enough removal that it doesn't matter.
= Maverick plays bigger creatures.
= Reanimator players bigger creatures.
= Rock decks play enough removal to remove him.
= NO/Pro decks don't care about Goyf and will drop a 10/10 Hydra.
Other than the Zoo matchup where a Goyf can survive burn spells, I don't see Goyf having any advantage over SFM.
- You can do the same thing with SFM while gaining card advantage. BS can still be hardcasted, though he's pretty slow regardless.Quote:
But in many matchups and situations I own't use the Force even if I have it. Obviously if they're Zoo and I have to resolve this Goyf/SFM to win, I'm going to use the Force. But if we're two sloiwsh decks a lot of times I'll run the Tarmogoyf out there just to draw a card from my opponent's hand. In CB mirrors all the time I'd use Goyf as a test spell on turn 2 and then be able to cast Counterbalance turn 3 with Spell Snare backup. Or they'd cast Tarmogoyf on turn 2, I'd answer with CB on turn 2 and then easily resolve my Goyf on turn 4.
- I know many people think otherwise but they do work very well together. The life link and vigilance of BS is HIGHLY relevant against more aggressive decks and I feel this deck gets more out of SFM than Tarmogoyf in this regard. Firespout is the key winner for CBT though as it stops Zoo swarms, helps slow down Merfolk, can kill Dredge and Storm tokens, and is good for killing flying creatures that aren't big like Tombstalker or Emrakul. I play no less than 3 FS in the main and I will always keep one on the side. This deck NEEDS sweepers for the aggro oriented, faster meta.Quote:
Consequently, I don't think Stoneforge Mystic and Counterbalance fight. In fact I think they work pretty well together.
Zoo decks are going to be this decks hardest matchup so we should prepare accordingly.
Firespout is awesome, just not with SFM.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
You are right, I wouldn't drop my goyf unprotected. However, my goyf is not susceptible to as much removal (burns). Also, goyf doesn't take 2 turns to become scary. On turn 2, goyf can be scarier than a 1/2 AEther Vial.
Tarmogoyf is just more durable and works well with Firespout. In an SFM build, I think Snapcaster is simply stronger. If I were to play CBT in a list that runs SFM, I'd run only 1 or 2 CB simply because Snapcaster with Spellsnare will help with a lot of stuff. The only thing the CB will do is act as a Protection from Swords to Plowshare/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. I would also consider playing some number of Enlightened Tutor to help me get CB more often. The decks like this have to maximize Snapcaster because you are going to be on the D in the early game and Snapcaster helps with that with relatively low mana requirement.
CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.
Firespout has synergies with goyf because goyf is often a 3/4 or bigger in a CBT deck, but its lack of synergy with SFM simply makes it unplayable. Snapcaster recuring bolts is just way stronger..
CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I never use my goyf as bait. I feel this deck can't afford the card parity...
1. LOA isn't going to stick against us, or we might as well scoop. Furthermore, given that the opponent has LOA + another creature, goyf stops LOA from swinging and therefore slows down the opponentQuote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
2. Mav only has KOTR that might be bigger. I don't think they play Terravore anymore. They do have SFM which is smaller than goyf, but is equal in size to your SFM
3. Reanimator does have bigger creatures, but hopefully you won't be casting goyf when they already went off. If they haven't and your goyf is in play, you are putting a clock on them which hurts their reanimate.
4. Rock is a tough match up.. shit happens.
5. Goyf can put pressure on them maybe forcing them to block before they can cast NO.
Agreed, Firespout is a must.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
NOTE: Firespout can't stop merfolk, they'll daze the shit out of it.. that's why we need lavamancer
Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
Sorceries
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder
Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
Lands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
This is a past list that use to be the staple of the deck, I feel with some improvement to the list that this would be the one to play again. Obv the RWM would be KOTR, I feel like GSZ is not needed for the deck. The whole idea behind this list is to land CBT then land NO and win. Cliques need a place in this list aswell.
GSZ worked very well for me, though I wasn't running Order in that particular build.
Actually I'm not entirely sure if Order is needed in modern Balance.
Jaces are a must, of course. They also work as more or less ultimative threat. Though again it takes much more time to win with Jace than with Order.
- FS works just fine with SFM. If SFM is out and not dead, drop the BS and you can hold off hordes fairly well. If they kill the SFM, you board wipe. If you need to board wipe and SFM and BS are out, just board wipe since the FS won't kill the BS. No real card advantage loss anyways on you end while the opponent may have over-extended to overwhelm your BS, which means you probably just won.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
- Goyf is hardly scary anymore with people packing 4 GSZ and 4 KotR. Or SnT Emrakul. Or Reanimator. Or SFM -> BS. Goyf is not the wall he used to and trying to pretend he is will only lead to more game losses.Quote:
You are right, I wouldn't drop my goyf unprotected. However, my goyf is not susceptible to as much removal (burns). Also, goyf doesn't take 2 turns to become scary. On turn 2, goyf can be scarier than a 1/2 AEther Vial.
- I agree with the Snappys, but Gofy is hardly anything but durable. Kotor and even scavenging ooze can be bigger, merfolk don't care, and many other decks have bigger dudes. Only in the case of Zoo is Goyf really relevant and even that can be questionable.Quote:
Tarmogoyf is just more durable and works well with Firespout. In an SFM build, I think Snapcaster is simply stronger. If I were to play CBT in a list that runs SFM, I'd run only 1 or 2 CB simply because Snapcaster with Spellsnare will help with a lot of stuff. The only thing the CB will do is act as a Protection from Swords to Plowshare/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. I would also consider playing some number of Enlightened Tutor to help me get CB more often. The decks like this have to maximize Snapcaster because you are going to be on the D in the early game and Snapcaster helps with that with relatively low mana requirement.
- This is simply not the case. CBT can protect BS just as well as it protects Goyf. In addition, if you KNOW a spell that CB can't counter is cast (which you will with top), BS has the option of bouncing. Goyf can't.Quote:
CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.
- See aboveQuote:
Firespout has synergies with goyf because goyf is often a 3/4 or bigger in a CBT deck, but its lack of synergy with SFM simply makes it unplayable. Snapcaster recuring bolts is just way stronger..
- You're pretty much wrong. I never have mana issues playing SFM with BS and CBT. See above.Quote:
CBT is very mana intensive, and if you want Batterskull to be anywhere near as durable as goyf, you need to keep SFM on the table and also 3 mana open to bring him back to your hand. You cannot do this with CBT as your main plan. Unless you make double mana each turn, it's just not happening.
- It can't and that's why Goyf isn't enough anymore.Quote:
I never use my goyf as bait. I feel this deck can't afford the card parity...
- We don't scoop if we have BS. It lets us live much longer and they typically don't run that much removal if any beyond Dismember.Quote:
1. LOA isn't going to stick against us, or we might as well scoop. Furthermore, given that the opponent has LOA + another creature, goyf stops LOA from swinging and therefore slows down the opponent.
- They have Green Sun's Zenith. They don't give a crap about Gofy and in fact they tend to run Ooze, which makes Goyf get smaller.Quote:
2. Mav only has KOTR that might be bigger. I don't think they play Terravore anymore. They do have SFM which is smaller than goyf, but is equal in size to your SFM
- Honestly it doesn't matter which one you use in this case but at least with BS you can gain life in case they do somehow resolve a dude.Quote:
3. Reanimator does have bigger creatures, but hopefully you won't be casting goyf when they already went off. If they haven't and your goyf is in play, you are putting a clock on them which hurts their reanimate.
- The life link and vigilance helps a great deal for longer battles of attrition.Quote:
4. Rock is a tough match up.. shit happens.
- I don't like maybes, I like certainties and when they drop the hydra, your gofy is useless. At least with BS you can gain life and possibly slow down the hydra by an extra turn.Quote:
5. Goyf can put pressure on them maybe forcing them to block before they can cast NO.
- No, that's why we run SFM since BS works very well against Merfolk.Quote:
Agreed, Firespout is a must.
NOTE: Firespout can't stop merfolk, they'll daze the shit out of it.. that's why we need lavamancer
Your list seems very tight, I don't see where Clique would fit in, maybe only in the Rhox War Monk slot. I agree, I think KOTR just out classes Rhox War Monk.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
That seems quite conditional and consider goyf just doesn't die to Firespout, that makes him better. I think given that Batterskull on the table, I wouldn't cast Firespout simple because killing off my own SFM just makes my Batterskull vulnerable to removal or slow once gang blocked..Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Scary is perspective, so I won't argue that. Yes GSZ is a bad match up regardless. Your SFM + Batterskull won't stop Maverick either. No one is pretending, he's still the best wall we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I think goyf is more than just durable. For starters he gets to be 6/7 in most match ups. This is interesting you bring up Zoo, since I feel that if CB decks make goyf huge (they do), then goyf vs goyf is just more relevant than Batterskull vs goyf (in which case Batterskull loses)..Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Think about this, if you are playing Tarmogoyf, you have to counter these things to protect yourself: 1-drop for Swords to Plowshare, 3-drops for Kgrip/Dismember (to an extent), 4-drops for Jace2Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
If you are playing SFM + Batterskull, you have to counter these tihngs to protect yourself: 1-drop for Swords to Plowshare, 2-drops for Tarmogoyf, 3-drops for Kgrip/Dismember, 4-drops for Jace2
That alone makes it harder to protect your SFM combo. You need to keep 4 relevant cards on top of your library. I can only keep 3 which is exactly what Sensei's Divining Top looks at.
Seen it, but not buying it. Yes you can use it in the same deck. No it's not optimal. That's why Tempo Thresh doesn't play Firespout with Nimble Mongoose. Kiling your own shit is just bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
"Pretty much wrong" is not an argument, or else "you are pretty much wrong". You provide no evidence of your reasoning. I do not accept this. You obviously haven't fought against CB hate to make any valid argument here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Between protecting yourself, protecting your CB and protecting your goyf/SFM + Batterskull, you simply do not have enough resources in the early game to do both. If it was so easy, I'd have tons of mana open all of the time, which is not the case.
Not to mention, given that CB comes back, Kgrip is just going to destroy your Batterskull... but this really is collateral and doesn't need to be argued.
Given that the spells are countered, yes, I'd be more willing to sacrifice SFM than goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I admit, Perish and Submerge will be relevant against me here..Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Ooze dies to Firespout and Plow and needs mana open, and sucks against Jace2. Ooze is hardly relevant here. I only play 6 creatures. Unless he starts removing his own stuff, in which case he'll deserve my plow. Anything bigger is simply met with Jace2 or Swords or CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Again, GSZ is strong against us. Those things are bigger than Batterskull too by the way. Although, the chance of my goyf beating enemy goyfs and Oozes are much higher than your Batterskull beating them
I suppose..Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
We have bigger problems than creatures in this match up (Deed/Choke/Vindicate/Kgrip/Knight of the Reliquary are all good examples of the problems we'll have).Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
For starters without CBT lock, you simply won't win this match up. They are so threat dense and so problematic that neither SFM nor goyf will win this alone. And given you have only 1 Batterskull in this deck vs my 4x Tarmogoyf, you aren't going to draw as many threats as I am. Not to mention your Batterskull is smaller than the majority of their creatures.
I'm really just going to let you have this one. I really don't think NO is viable anymore for this to matter considering it is quite slow and soft against Zoo or dedicated control decks. I just don't think NO Pro will be played as much. It'll be in the Maverick decks and some Bant lists, but it really wont'be tier 1 material.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Even is NO Pro becomes a problem again, I wouldn't consider Batterskull as my out to it..
So does Tarmogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
- If that is truly how you feel than it's no wonder Supreme Blue lists have died out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
That's a grand statement. The reason why Supreme Blue is dying out isn't because it plays Tarmogoyf, it's because the deck times out a lot and is hard to play in an unknown metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
When Countertop was at its high, it was a more aggressive deck. In 2009, the metagame was fairly stable with no relevant bans until Mystical Tutor which shifted the metagame towards an aggro meta thus killing off Countertop. There were more incompetant combo players than there were control players. Now there are more incompetant control players than there are aggro players.
- Merfolk were usually the decks that helped kill of CounterTop decks. My comment was more referring to now than before. I simply don't see traditional Supreme Blue lists being viable at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Merfolk is another reason, but I wouldn't say it was the sole reason. Merfolk is an aggro deck with islandwalk, what can we do? It's still aggro..Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
At this point I think cbt (not just supreme blue) isn't viable. With stifle wasteland decks getting snapcaster and pack a set of four spell snares, I'm wondering if we'll receive the chance to cast our 2 drops at all....