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I haven't tested Cage yet but I'm not hot on it. Against Dredge it gives them time to Study and Loot to SB cards and then kill you. It's not bad but I think I still prefer Crypt.
In regards to removal, I'm running mono-Red and there are quite a few options for removal. Tarfire, Ember Hauler, Fanatic, Sparksmith... so good! Not sure what I'm going to run with but I'll post a list sometime soon-ish.
Hello everyone.
I'm new to this forum, just registered myself but I'm reading here for a few weeks.
A few friends of mine and I decided to make a jump from casual Magic to Legacy and I'm settling for my little green friends.
I'm playing Magic for 15 years now, with a break of 3 years, but like I said, just casual, mostly drafting. I was interessted in Legacy a few years ago, but couldn't afford to spent my money on it.
So my experience is near to zero in competive playing but I do think, that I'm not bad (in opposite to my english skills).
We're aiming to go to a tournement next month, so I hoped you guys could help a little with my decklist. I don't know about the Metagame here in Germany, since I just know what my friends are playing.
My list, mostly copied from the Scatman;
17 Mountains
1 Barbarian Ring (getting cut for an other Mountain since most of the times it pings me for 2-3 before it gets wasted)
4 Wastelands
4 Lackeys
4 Vials
1 Prospector
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
3 Incinerator
4 Winstigator
4 Chieftains
4 Matron
1 Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Crafter
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Siege-Gang Commander
And I think here is my problem, im trying to put to much in the "toolbox".
The Crafter was a Piledriver before, and the Prospector was an other Tarfire.
I'm thinking about getting 2-3 Chrome Mox in there, cutting the Crafter, Kiki and maybe the Prospector.
Another problem of mine, I cannot decide for a Sideboard. Too much I want, to litte space.
4 Blood Moons
3-4 Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
3-4 Fireblast
3-4 Piledriver for racing combo (but this is a race we're supposed to lose anyway..)
and something for graveyard hate aswell, thinking of Cage & Crypt.
1 Tinkerer, if I need more versus artefacts
1 Stingscourger, if needed versus Show n Tell etc.
So probably it would look like, 4 Blood Moon, 1 Tinkerer, 1 Stingscourger, 4-5 for graveyard hate, 3 Pyroblast, 2 Fireblast and just give up on the Combo Matchup.
An other Goblin I haven't tried out till now is the Sparksmith, maybe for the Sharpshooter? But the latter was most of the times just awesome.. Sparksmith Sideboard and boarding in for Sharpshooter versus Maverick etc.?
Thanks in advance and I hope you can help me with the few decisions I still have to make.
Oh and sorry for my english, I hope it's quite readable.
I play Dredge regularly, and I think Grafdigger's Cage is far more resilient to anti-hate with the exception of Chain of Vapor into a discarded Cabal Therapy, because you don't want them to play Ancient Grudge over Oxidize (etc) and let them Dredge into their answers as opposed to draw into them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
Back to goblins!
60 people, 6 rounds.
Ran my core list, with 3rd Gempalm and Kiki-Jiki on the 2 flex slots.
Sb had 3 Needle, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, 2 Knesis, 2 Anarchy, 4 Faerie Macabre, 1 CotV, 1 MB. Trap.
R1 – Bye
1-0
R2 – Aranha with UWr Stoneblade
G1 – He mulls, I keep Mountain, Waste, Vial, 2x Instigator, Tarfire, Matron, Ringleader. He FoW Vial, I play Waste, Tarfire a Stoneforge, and draw 2nd Mountain T3. He tries to block Instigator with a Snapcaster, but I have a 2nd removal, and get Matron + Kiki + Gempalm, He concedes.
Side: -4 Instigator, +3 Needle, +1 Tinkerer
G2 – I keel 1 Mountain with 2 lackey, vial, tinkerer, Chieftain, Matron, Ringleader. Vial Resolves. I play a lackey 2nd turn, while He hadStoneforged for Jitte. His 3rd turn I eot activate Vial, and He Cliques, but let me keep. I draw a land, Gempalm Stone, and attack with both Lackeys. He let the 2 resolve. I drop Tinkerer (so He would have to attack with Jitte to kill it) and a Ringleader. He Snaps and Brainstorm, trying to find Warth, but next turn I have him almost dead already, and He can’t keep up.
2-0
R3 – Wstax
G1 – I play Vial. He plays plains. I play land. He plays Suppression Field. I activate Vial and Cycle Gempalm in response. I play Chieftain, hit for 4, drop Ringleader. He drops the White Muse. I draw a 4th land, Vial Chieftain paying 2, then cast Stingscourger, and hit for 17.
Side: -3 Tarfire, -1 Gempalm, +2 Anarchy, +1 Tinkerer,+1 Shooter.
G2 – I mull a 1 lander with lackey, then a 0 lander, and keep 4 Lands and Matron. He goes T1 City + CotV@1, T2 Trinisphere, but misses his 3 land 2 or 3 times in a row. I Matron for Ringleader, play it, getting Chieftain and Tuktuk, having drawn Vial. I destroy CotV and play Vial.He plays 3 for a Mox. I get another tuktuk that get Trini and Mox, getting 4 dmg out of the deal. He gets to play a Tabernacle 2/6 guy, that stalls forever, until He Geddons me out. I had kept a Mountain in hand, and had 2 Vials already. He died 2 turns after killing my board.
3-0
R4 – Shimi with TES
G1 – I mull into lackey, connects into something, hit again and Wasteland, but He Iggy loops me T3.
Side: - +4 Faerie, +1 CotV, +1 Trap, +1 Tinkerer, +1 Shooter, -1 Ringleader, - 3 Tarfire, -2 Stingscourger, -2 Tarfire
G2 – I keep Lackey, Instigator, Kiki, Chieftain and 3 mountains. T1 lackey gets kiki and play Insti. Eot I copy Instigator, my turn play and copy Chieftain, dropping him to 2. He Iggy’s me. Trap, Faerie, CotV, Sharpshooter or Tinkerer would have gotten me the win here.
(while writing the report I just realize I dealt 21 dmg to him on t3. That 3+6+6+3+3. Holy crap. Need to pay more attention on my games…)
3-1
R5 – Edson with Shot in the Dark
G1- I mull to 5 on the draw, keeping 3 lands, Matron ,Ringleader. T1 I draw Tarfire, T2 Instigator. He plays land, Mox, Jace and Bounce it. I Tarfire jace and replay Instigator. I play Ringleader into 2 cards, and it’s FoW Fow. Instigator connect into Matron into Tuktuk, and win from there.
Side: +2 Anarchy, +3 Needle, +1 Shooter, +1 Tinkerer, -3 Tarfire, -2 Stingscourger, -2 Gempalm.
G2 – I should have played Lackey T1, but lead with Vial. He has explosives active T2, so I lose a lot of tempo, and he gets Thopter combo out, with StP backup.
G3 – I play mountain. He plays Seat of Sinode, Top, Mox Opal. I Waste the land. He uses Top, but loses Metalcraft, and plays U. Sea. I think I had lackey now, that connected, but I had only Tinkerer and Instigator. He does not play land. I hit for 3. He plays fetch. Eot I Tinkerer Top, to make him waste mana, but he had StP for it, so it only worked once. I draw something like Matron or Ringleader, that gets me more guys, and win 2 turns later (With Matron for Tarfire =D). He had Humility on his hand, but I had Anarchy ^^.
4-1
R6 – Alex With hive Mind
G1 – I mull into Mountain, Mountain, Lackey on the play. 1st card is Siege-Gang Commander, but he has a T2 Emrakul. I don’t draw Stingscourger and lose.
Side: +3 Needle (fetch) +1 Shooter, +1 Tinkerer, -4 Tarfire, -1 Gempalm.
G2 – I mull into mountain, mountain, mountain, lackey. I draw Stingscourger and Instigator only. He has T3 Emrakul, which I bounce, and T4 Emrakul, that kills me.
4-2
I really liked this list, and don’t want to change anything. We’re awesome against anything except combo. 4 Tarfire,3 Gemplm 2 Stingscourger are awesome.
Next time I’ll nail this shit.
@ScatmanX
Congratulations and thanks for posting the reports!
I just got back into playing goblins.
Pile driver is dropped completely, right?
Boartusk Liege from the sb too? I like it when it comes in from sb, it is beyond bolt range and helps to toughen the others.
Here's my approach:
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Tarfire
3 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Anarchy
Went 2-2-1 (w-l-d) last Saturday (17 peeps)
R1 (Stax)
Lost G1, Won 3 turns long G2, and won epic G3: t2 Ghostly Prison, t3 second one, t4 third one(!). Me - Anarchy :laugh:
R2 (Bant)
Lost G1 (Mulligan to 5), won G2 (Moon) and G3 (straight aggro, 3 tarfire for his creatures)
R3 (Nic Fit)
Lost G1 and won G2 (Kiki shines). We draw G3.
R4 (Pun-Mav)
Ok - this is my second time playing against this deck and this player. Again I lost 0-2. I did some bad sideboard changes - should just got in Fae, Extraction and Anarchy. Instead I sided in Blood Moons and greavehate.
R5 (Reanimator)
2-1 for reanimator player. All games lasted 3 turns. Extractions should be 3rd and 4th Fae (yeah FoW ftw -.-)
Scatman-X - are Needles that good? I mean I imagine that this is good call against Mav (Knight, Mom). I really need to tune in my sideboard. I think I'll cut Reb/Pyro...
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by wert
Piledriver got the axe and is not missed.
Boartusk on the other hand could be a 1-off on the side. Was just testing if that config is good. I really like him.
I'd never pud Faerie or Extraction against them. Moon and Anarchy, if you have it, are the ones to go to, and maybe Tinkerer.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
Needles I'm still testing, but seemed very promising against UW.
They appear to be good against Maverick, but they really aren't... that's sad.
I may drop it to 2, but Pyroblast are completely fine too.
Hmm... Interesting to see that. The reason behind extraction and Fae is to remove punishing fire. Those can also shrink KotR sometimes or even remove 4 copies of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
But you are also correct - Blood Moon also shuts Groove/fire combo, but he always have some outs by fetching basic forest and plains (quasali, gsz).
I still think that I can beat Pun-Mav - just need to playtest more and find the perfect solution for it.
Anyway Goblin Wizard looks good on paper.
ScatmanX,
I tried looking for your current list, buying can't find it. Would it be cool to post it again please?
I've always loved Kiki-Jiki as it can "reuse" ETB effects.
Usually P.Fire Mav run only 1 Basic forest, and the rest is non basic. If the list you play against has more, and play to get them, maybe you could play differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
The reason I don't like Surgical/Faerie, is because they can play around it quite easily, and when you have a target, it means they killed a guy already...
Goblin Wizard does look awesome, giving us a Vial for any cost and a Pro-White enabler, but is quite expensive at 4cc...
Don't do it!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
That card is awful trash. Every time you cheat Gee Wiz into play you're essentially NOT putting a Ringleader or SGC or whatever into play. That's like spending money on goods to barter with. Just buy what you want to buy!
He'll usually be dead before you can even use him, and his secondary ability isn't as relevant as you think it is. He just takes up a slot that could actually be useful.
Piledriver got the axe and is not missed.
How can piledriver be completely axed? with 10 removal ( 4xgempalm, 4x tarfire, 2xstingscourger ) and with 2xSGC, 3x MWM as pumps and 4x Chieftains mainly for haste, he is still a main finisher that needs to be dealt with.
Piledriver is an early threat that like lackey needs to be dealt with. He wins me games.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
He is not an early threat. He does not have to be dealt it, they just need to kill your other guys.
You're talking about Instigator. HE needs to be dealt with turn 2.
I play sparksmith as a 1-of , i have to say he is absolutely the nuts, nothing more cool than killing a germ token of batterskull every turn , going down 4 every turn , then making an alpha strike , at 7 life... he is absolutely nice i recommend him , but as a 1-2-of , play him carefully , you dont want to make you 12 damage just for kill 1 KOTR?? , ok sometimes you want that :laugh::laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by wert
I was able to play some Legacy this weekend and finally tried out 4x Chieftain. I really like it.
Thanks everyone who pushed that idea.
On the subject of Goblin Shortcutter, I have been thinking about this, too. Enough to pick up a playset in case. However, after consideration, it seems to be very much like a Stingscourger where no one has to pay mana the following turn. When combined with mana-denial I choose Stingscourger. Not to forget the utility of bouncing a large creature that was cheated into play.
In a more aggressive, speed-oriented list, I could see an argument made for Shortcutter.
Indeed, Shortcutter is really nice, but Stingscourger gives you tempo, because the opponent has to replay the card (8 mana for another Batterskull Germ)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
I could see myself running a 1-1 Split, but can't see many situations where I'd want Shortcutter instead of Sting.
I fully agree. Some players are intelligent enough to look at the board state, but I am amazed at how many times the turn 2 piledriver gets forced/dismembered, while people ignore chieftains and instigators. Piledrivers can swing into an open opponent for ridiculous amounts in the later turns. Yet at the end of the day, it often functions as a win-more card against non-combo, as it doesn't create CA and can chump blocked (and killed) by a bear. Unblocked lackeys and instigators are what break games open, and resolved chieftains improve everything from stingscourgers, to instigator, to mogg war marshal.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I played goblins in paper twice at small tournies in the past week, but my paper list still is mostly stock (although I have cut the vials), so I won't bother. I will, however, relay how my altered list with MB moxes and chalices has been doing.
My list is the following.
21 Land(ish)
13 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Gempalm incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Notes: Magus in the board was an experiment, to try with chalice at 1. Overall, Bloodmoon would have been a better fit. Magus did stick around most games, but a pridemage/grip/etc. combined with removal still can take Magus out...so blood moon would have stuck around as well. The extra few damage from the body was seldom relevant; blood moon seems to be the better choice in the majority of cases. The rest of the board (outside GY hate and the sharpshooter) did not perform greatly. It needs work, but I would prefer to keep it MR, and not having the 1CC slot open harms the board...so the options are limited.
In any case, onward to the matches.
RDW - Game 1
I win the roll, and see a chalice and mox in my opening 7. My opponent keeps as well. I open with chalice at once, and although he casts a pair of Keldon Marauders, a MWM and the subsequent tokens block the combat damage. I hit another MWM and ride the damage between them and a chieftain to victory despite my opponent's full grip.
1-0
Game 2
I get lucky with seeing the same combination of chalice + mox again, and we both keep our opening 7. Yet, this time the opponent had a Smash to Smithereens as an answer. A turn turn two chieftain dies to chain lightning, but I play a MWM and a warren instigator on turn three. A matron searching for a ringleader are cheated into play, and my opponent is quickly overwhelmed.
(2-0)
Match 2, Bant
I win the roll and keep a decent opening 7, as does my opponent. I lead with a t1 lackey. He responds with a GSZ fetching an arbor (not sure if he lacked removal or misplayed). I gempalm'd the arbor and cheat in a Siege-Gang, and chieftain on turn 3. He doesn't recover.
1-0
Game 2
We both go down to 6. I play a t2 instigator, and my opponent misplays on his fetches into a turn three magus. He's left with a forest and mountains, and doesn't recover.
2-0
BUW. Esper-blade colors, but it seemed to run heavy on discard and light on counter-magic.
Game 1
We both keep out opening 7 ...mine is a dangerous set that is mox heavy (mox mox, mountain, sting, lackey, instigator, gempalm). He leads with a turn 1 Mom, and I play a mountain, double chrome mox, lackey and cycle a gempalm targeting mom. I've destroyed my hand, which now consists of a mountain and a matron. Luckily, he lacked an answer for my lackey the next turn, and I was able to fetch a ringleader via the matron and cheat it into play with the lackey. Not sure if this was the right play to keep the hand (it was very risky), but I was more risk tolerant since I was on the draw. Going t1 instigator and gempalming to force MoM to tap on t2 may have been the better play.
1-0
Game 2(on the draw)
I mull and keep a hand of lackey, 2 magus, chieftain, and 2 mountains. My t1 lackey is removed by StP. My opponent drops kor firewalkers on turn 2 and 3, and I proceed to chain 3-5 CC cards. I drop a lackey on turn 4, which causes my opponent to hold one firewalker in reserve. Besides that though, I die on turn 10 only having played the two mountains and two lackeys. Not a terribly close game.
1-1
Game 3 (on the play)
I keep a slow opening 7 of 2 MWM, 2 mountains, a warren instigator, a ringleader, and a matron. I would have preferred a lackey or mox, but figured it was sufficient to keep on the play. My turn 2 instigator is removed to a swords, and my opponent follows up the play with thalia. I play a turn 3 magus when my opponent has a swamp and two tundras. I've draw lands, my hand curves out nicely, and I appear to be in a great position. My opponent plays a t3 Bob, and I search for a gempalm to remove him, and succeed the next turn. On my opponent's t5, however, he top deck's a jitte and kills magus with -1/-1 counters. T6, I land a ringleader (which proceeds to hit 4 mountains), but he plays double mettling mage (one naming matron, the other siege-gang) and connects his jitte. I block with a ringleader and gempalm his other mage eot. During my next turn, I tuktuk the jitte away and soon swarm him.
2-1
3-0
Enchantress. This is a deck that I have little experience playing against (it's been a few years), and I was quite surprised to see it. In any case, I should have played differently in match two for sure, and possibly in match 1.
Game 1.
I go to 6, as does my opponent. He starts off with a wild growth on a Savannah. I play a mox and a instigator. On t2, he plays a sterling grove and I play a chalice for 1 and connect with the instigator. He plays Enchantress's Presence on t3, but he dies before he is able to get a moat setup.
1-0
Game 2.
We both keep 7, I'm on the draw with a decent 7 (chalice, mount, warren, chieftain, chalice mox, matron). I make a mistake trying to chalice off 1 in this MU instead of racing; I was perhaps too afraid of elephant grass. In any case, it didn't matter as solitaire confinement (later followed by moat and enchantress' presence) hit the table on turn 3.
1-1
Game 3.
I didn't see a land until I mulliganed to 3. Regardless, it is a tough MU even if I hadn't been mana-screwed.
1-2
3-1
Overall, the list seems like it needs another mountain. The 3 goblin war chiefs have not been great, and could easily be replaced. The list further (as stated earlier) lacks sufficient removal, and is overly reliant on gempalm for providing it. The SB also needs refining.
Nevertheless, Chrome mox feels strong. It occasionally ruins a hand, but it makes hands without lackeys potentially keepable. I am not sure on chalice, but a turn 1 mox and chalice randomly wins many matchups by itself. Combined with blood moon, it makes an "oops, I win factor". Unfortunately, it also means you can't run relic/shattering spree/pyro/REB in your board, and you can't run tarfire in the main.
If anyone is interested, I can list how I boarded in each MU. Also, if anyone else is willing to try out a similar list, let me know how it treats them.
Nice Report Chuck.
Just some comments:
- Against Enchantress it seems that G1 you did the right move, but R2 you should have gone 1st with Instigator, than Chalice.
- You can cast Shattering Spree under Chalice@1. CotV will only counter the original spell, but all the copies will resolve.
- We have to find something better than Knesis here. Add the CA-Disadvantage from Mox, and you're in bad shape. I've run Arc Trail to some success, but others didn't liked it...
interesting. for a long time piledriver was considered core for goblin decks, there must have been a reason. the 2cc slot is very competitive and it seems warren instigator as a choice or not determines the direction of the deckQuote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
true piledriver on his own is weak, it is why i advocate playing MWM as it often means piledrivers are pumped up. warren instigators later on in a game are weak goblins. if you don't run piledriver where is your threat except for chieftains which are often removed, or just through weight of numbers.
don't get me wrong, all i want is for goblins to win and all goblin players are my friends scatmanx, it's just that in my experience piledrivers win me games and do i really need more than 4 lackey effects? My 2cc slots are reserved for MWM, piledrivers and stingscourgers, no room for warren instigators. Convince me why warren instigators should be played? i really feel that instigators / piledrivers are a core question to the future of the deck. i accept that chieftains and not warchiefs are needed in the current legacy meta.
Pro Blue is not really relevant in this meta...
IMO, if your opponent dedicates their first turn to kill your Lackey, they will be more upset to see a turn 2 Double Lackey than a turn 2 Piledriver because they have to IMMEDIATELY kill it or play a bigger threat. If you follow up with a turn 3 Chieftain then their blocker is probably too small. If you use some of your own removal then your board quickly gets way bigger than anything they can cobble together.
Winstigator demands an immediate answer whereas Piledriver can connect one or two times before he's a problem. Winstigator also lets you find and play an immediate answer to a problem if it connects and you are holding Matron. Need a Stingscourger? Tuktuk? SGC? Kiki? Chieftain? Piledriver can't do that.
Piledriver is a great creature when Merfolk and Rhox War Monk are around, but I haven't seen either in a while. Piledriver is an excellent finisher but Instigator sets up a win.