Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The one thing that Red gives access to Miracles that really matters, IMO, is Blood Moon.
That card is pretty much an auto-win against any non-combo deck with a greedy mana-base (BUG variants, 4-color decks, Jund, pretty much most decks that run 3-5 colors with little to no basics), and Turbo Eldrazi (aka. 12-post, one of our more horrible matchups).
This alone, for me, is enough reason to run a Red splash over a Black splash.
Granted, it's more of a metagame call than anything. But in our local meta, Greedy Mana-bases run rampant, thus somewhat necessitating the need for Blood Moon to try to bring them down a peg.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Exactly why the red splash is awesome. Blood Moon basically is amazing in all our rough matchups and you only need to run one since it defends itself if you cast it when your opponent does not have the colors to play adrupt decay in response. It is the ultimate lockdown almost buying you i finite turns to win the game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Check out the thread in new development decks about RED MIRACLES.. happy to hear suggestions about it.:cool:
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SBGpinas
The one thing that Red gives access to Miracles that really matters, IMO, is Blood Moon.
That card is pretty much an auto-win against any non-combo deck with a greedy mana-base (BUG variants, 4-color decks, Jund, pretty much most decks that run 3-5 colors with little to no basics), and Turbo Eldrazi (aka. 12-post, one of our more horrible matchups).
This alone, for me, is enough reason to run a Red splash over a Black splash.
Granted, it's more of a metagame call than anything. But in our local meta, Greedy Mana-bases run rampant, thus somewhat necessitating the need for Blood Moon to try to bring them down a peg.
I think the real reason to be red is Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Blood Moon is a great bonus, don't get me wrong, but REB is the reason for the splash in my opinion.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I disagree with Bob - the spells you want to counter with Counterbalance tend to be the ones lower in the manacurve, especially :1: & :2:. These are also the cards we want to be revealing to Confidant. This leaves you with the conundrum of do I take more damage to guarantee I counter their spell, or do I possibly give up that advantage to last longer?
Though we don't have the pure card advantage that Bob offers, we do have better card selection than normal thanks to Top. With our plan being to go the long game, we're going to draw what we need eventually, so why take the extra damage to draw it a couple turns early
Regarding Engineered Plague - Definitely good against tribal, especially 'Folk and Goblins, because their vial makes the game a little rough on us. Elves is not so bad since it's basically a combo match up. I run enlightened tutor, so I prefer Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, and/or Moat (all of which I usually throw in the mainboard. - Funny story, I had a judge called on me last week when playing against Show and Tell because "There's no fucking way you're running Humility mainboard.") These have the benefit of being good in more matchups than just the red and blue menaces.
I just started splashing for Blood Moon a few weeks ago, and I agree that it's 100% the bomb dot com. A lot of decks are tending towards more greedy manabases and utility lands, and being able to turn them off before their second turn is a blow out.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thecrav
I disagree with Bob - the spells you want to counter with Counterbalance tend to be the ones lower in the manacurve, especially :1: & :2:. These are also the cards we want to be revealing to Confidant. This leaves you with the conundrum of do I take more damage to guarantee I counter their spell, or do I possibly give up that advantage to last longer?
Though we don't have the pure card advantage that Bob offers, we do have better card selection than normal thanks to Top. With our plan being to go the long game, we're going to draw what we need eventually, so why take the extra damage to draw it a couple turns early
Regarding Engineered Plague - Definitely good against tribal, especially 'Folk and Goblins, because their vial makes the game a little rough on us. Elves is not so bad since it's basically a combo match up. I run enlightened tutor, so I prefer Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, and/or Moat (all of which I usually throw in the mainboard. - Funny story, I had a judge called on me last week when playing against Show and Tell because "There's no fucking way you're running Humility mainboard.") These have the benefit of being good in more matchups than just the red and blue menaces.
I just started splashing for Blood Moon a few weeks ago, and I agree that it's 100% the bomb dot com. A lot of decks are tending towards more greedy manabases and utility lands, and being able to turn them off before their second turn is a blow out.
How many blood moons do u played?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I think the real reason to be red is Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Blood Moon is a great bonus, don't get me wrong, but REB is the reason for the splash in my opinion.
REB is a given in a field full of blue decks, but it's not always the best thing to have against a tri/quad color deck whose spells and permanents are color-diversified.
Also, REB does not ensure a victory once it resolves like Blood Moon does.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
While Blood Moon is powerful, you are under the assumption that opponent does not have an active DRS, and that's a big if. With an active DRS, it is very possible to break out of Blood Moon.
Furthermore, Blood Moon really does not help much against Merfolk or Goblin. Hence, this is a mutually exclusive decision, to hose against tribal Aggro decks or against greedy Mana base fair decks (Jund/BUG). Sure, you can argue that REB/Pyro works better for the combo match-ups, but black does offer inquisition/thoughtseize/duress.
The problem with Fiery Temper is that your opponent most likely would make you discard it before he plays Dark Confidant or Liliana, hence you didn't really burn the target you really want, this is because they want to deplete your counters first.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
guybrush3
How many blood moons do u played?
I play 2 Blood Moons and I switch between 2 and 3 Enlightened Tutors to grab those and some of the other artifacts/enchantments I mentioned. I don't have my list in front of me, but I want to say this is with 6 Islands and 2 Plains, though it may be 7/2
E Tutor with this is a nice bonus in the Show and Tell matchup since you can tutor to put that 3 on top in response to S&T (assuming you don't have something even more fun to show in)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thecrav
E Tutor with this is a nice bonus in the Show and Tell matchup since you can tutor to put that 3 on top in response to S&T (assuming you don't have something even more fun to show in)
That's just being too cute. If you know you are playing against Sneak and Show, just Tutor for Humility and draw it w/ the Top in play, in response to Show and Tell. Resolving a Blood Moon when your opponent has Griselbrand is simply lackluster. Sneak and Show really just need to abuse the card drawing until he has the Mana from lotus petal(s) and/or Island to play Wipe Away in the SB games. Humility on the other hand, actually gets you the turns you need, to prepare for that eventual fight.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thecrav
I play 2 Blood Moons and I switch between 2 and 3 Enlightened Tutors to grab those and some of the other artifacts/enchantments I mentioned. I don't have my list in front of me, but I want to say this is with 6 Islands and 2 Plains, though it may be 7/2
E Tutor with this is a nice bonus in the Show and Tell matchup since you can tutor to put that 3 on top in response to S&T (assuming you don't have something even more fun to show in)
Since im playing a red miracle deck without white i wanted to know if 2/3 blood moon would be enough as a terrific controller of the board...i will test them
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
While Blood Moon is powerful, you are under the assumption that opponent does not have an active DRS, and that's a big if. With an active DRS, it is very possible to break out of Blood Moon.
Furthermore, Blood Moon really does not help much against Merfolk or Goblin. Hence, this is a mutually exclusive decision, to hose against tribal Aggro decks or against greedy Mana base fair decks (Jund/BUG). Sure, you can argue that REB/Pyro works better for the combo match-ups, but black does offer inquisition/thoughtseize/duress.
The problem with Fiery Temper is that your opponent most likely would make you discard it before he plays Dark Confidant or Liliana, hence you didn't really burn the target you really want, this is because they want to deplete your counters first.
Why on earth would you play a Blood Moon when they have an active DRS on the board?
Also, Tribal aggro decks are at a low right now - at least in my local meta. Like I've said in my post about Blood Moon, it's a meta-call. By all means, if you feel that you're going to be facing a buttload of Merfolk or Goblins (Elves are already a good matchup without Engineered Plague), then run a Black Splash.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SBGpinas
Why on earth would you play a Blood Moon when they have an active DRS on the board?
Also, Tribal aggro decks are at a low right now - at least in my local meta. Like I've said in my post about Blood Moon, it's a meta-call. By all means, if you feel that you're going to be facing a buttload of Merfolk or Goblins (Elves are already a good matchup without Engineered Plague), then run a Black Splash.
Exactly, you have to find the right time to land a blood moon so they can't float mana for abrupt decay with DRS or untapped lands.
One DRS with a Blood Moon in play won't help them unless they have basics (which most BUG/RUG decks don't run). They need two, and that's not even considering if you have a rest in peace in play, which makes any amount of DRS unable to break blood moon.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
One thing I don't like about Black as a splash is that, sure, discard spells are awesome if you get a lot of them early, but past the early-to-mid game, discard starts to lose a lot of value.
As a deck that aims to get to the late-game, there's not a lot of value running cards that become more and more useless as the game progresses, which is exactly what discard is. Not like Red Elemental Blasts, which are relevant regardless of when you draw into it since it's still removal and a hard-counter for blue spells.
I see the value of discard vs. combo matchups, but past that, it's not really great.
What this means, is that the choice of going Red or Black for splash is mostly a meta-game call, but more often than not, Red is the superior choice.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
black is good in the late game too, if you're against a control deck (that has to hold big threaths and countermeasures in his hand)
to me:
red is better against aggro and combo
black is better against tribal and control
what color should be a metagame call
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I think the real reason to be red is Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Blood Moon is a great bonus, don't get me wrong, but REB is the reason for the splash in my opinion.
I agree here. Blood Moon is great, but hardly game over against Jund. An active Deathrite Shaman or a basic Forest lets them cast Bloodbraid which can build up their board surprisingly fast. BUG has much more trouble with Blood Moon than Jund though since they are completely off color.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
black is good in the late game too, if you're against a control deck (that has to hold big threaths and countermeasures in his hand)
During the first several turns against control, discard is sometimes as good as REB. REB is bad against Elspeth and SFM. Late in the game, discard is also bad against Elspeth and SFM (plus everything else that they just drew). REB is miles better than discard against any Blue spell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
red is better against aggro and combo
black is better against tribal and control
I'd say it's more like...
Red is better against non-ANT/TES combo, control, and midranged.
Black is better against ANT/TES. (and I suppose Goblins, although I can't imagine SBing a bunch of Engineered Plagues when Energy Field or Moat takes care of Goblins already)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
or you don't splash at all and use the blue/white alternatives that have broader applications: Flusterstorm (good against every kind of combo), Spell Pierce, Negate, Rest in Peace (this is already really good against Jund and Tempo Thresh, no need for Blood Moon), Path to Exile, Elspeth (Jace), Clique (Jace)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
It is not "Why would you splash a color?, it's more like Why wouldn't you splash a color?!
Even though UW might provide some powerful options, those are probably not the most powerful you can have. So why play with inferior cards?
Generally, I've been playing with all splashes. I tried UWq, splashing for Grip, UWbg, splashing for Decay, and the most regular splashes, UWr and UWb. While UWr served me well at the GP Strasbourg (56th) I have no such positive feelings / experiences with the blacksplash. Neither on tournaments nor in testing rounds. Does this mean black has the worse splashcards? By all means, no. Most likely black has the more powerful ones, one of the best examples ist just the stable performance of UWb Esperstoneblade, which provides a good environment for black spells. Does this mean we should splash this color too? No, simply no. Even though the red cards may be inferior they fit the gameplan of Miraclecontrol way better. Why would I wan't to squeeze some proactive cards into a 100%-reactive deck? Don't you come and tell "different-angle" here. This deck hardly has any need for Discardspells. Why would I want Vindicate? Tapping out doesn't seem that appealing, though it has it's uses - but once again - I'd rather play Vindicate in a Stonebladeshell, in a Aggrocrontrolshell. What does Red offer? Defensive cards and I-Win-Bombs. Well, this sounds like Miracles, doesn't it? REB/Pyro are such important cards for so many MUs, I think I don't have to tell you which ones, right? Pyroclasm is a keycard for many MUs and sometimes a strictly superior Terminus. It's "hardcastable", it gets Teeg, it gets all of Stoneblades creatures and it cleans pretty much all boards when there is a RIP on the field. This color also has Sulfur Elemental at the ready. Reactive, uncounterable threat that crushes Lingering Souls - DnT in half? Great. Ah, and yeah, we got Blood Moon, I heard this card is rather nice in today's meta. Plus it's a tutorable cc3. There is nothing like countering a spell via Counterbalance, revealing a bomb. You know that feeling?
Overall I really don't think I can see myself switching splashcolors at all. If I'd want to play with black proactive cards I'd play Stoneblade/Deathblade/BUG Control. It just is a wrong angle for our deck.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
Red is better against non-ANT/TES combo, control, and midranged.
Black is better against ANT/TES. (and I suppose Goblins, although I can't imagine SBing a bunch of Engineered Plagues when Energy Field or Moat takes care of Goblins already)
Have your EF ever get REB/Pyro by Goblins?
When you have Esper Stoneblad and DnT heavy Meta, Black offers more. Engineered Plague naming spirit and Dread of Night can shut down all the lingering soul tokens and Geist, and sometimes Stoneforge (naming Kor or multi-dread or naming human).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Have your EF ever get REB/Pyro by Goblins?
When you have Esper Stoneblad and DnT heavy Meta, Black offers more. Engineered Plague naming spirit and
Dread of Night can shut down all the lingering soul tokens and Geist, and sometimes Stoneforge (naming Kor or multi-dread or naming human).
If you're boarding a cmc 1 enchantment against a matchup where resources development and grinding is everything, you're doing it wrong. Especially against a matchup that has so many angles of attacking you that such a narrow card won't do anything against good pilots.
Sulfur Elemental has the difference of not only killing Souls' token and Elspeth's ones, but being a 3/2 creature on its own that trades with Snapcaster, Geist, Mystic and may kill Jace on an ambush (and gives a clock).
Once Dread of Night is on the ground, people can start Brainstorming away Lingering Souls, effectively negating its effectiveness. Plus, you need 2 Dreads of Night to kill a Geist, and it suffers from Explosives and Disenchant (and no, they are not keeping Stps against Miracle postboard, it's not a valid counter-argument).
It's much easier to play around a card you see on the table that one you can't see coming (and can't counter).
Reguarding EPlague, although it's great against Tribal (which is already doable with other cards, but still..), I'd rather have Sulfur Elemental against a deck with Ports and Thalia.
But I guess you'll have to disagree for the N-th time.
