[Deck] Jund

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Originally Posted by HateKnuckle

How do we beat Storm? After losing to Caleb Scherer at Worcester I asked him how I'm supposed to beat him and he said that you have to hope for the Thoughtseize or Hymn but I had the damn Hymn T2 and he won right through it. He said that some guys in his area who play Jund are STILL trying to figure it out but they don't have anything yet.

Like how the fuck can there not be any way to actually combat Storm? We don't have a silver bullet. We just have MD cards that we try to increase the number of hoping that that's enough.

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Storm isn't a great matchup but is very winnable. You want to knock them off balance with early discard and then stick a Liliana, which wins given enough time. This is a matchup where I love having Duress in the SB to complement TS/Hymn. Surgical is also fantastic when coupled with discard. I've had Storm players scoop to Surgical on Infernal Tutor.

For permanent-based hate, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Thorn of Amethyst, Phyrexian Revoker, Trinisphere, and Grafdigger's Cage (shuts off PiF) are all options.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

Null Rod, Chains of Mephisto, extra discard, or go the Zoo route and play some Mindbreak Trap if you think you're facing way too much storm.

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The problem isn't that I'm facing too much Storm but that I'm facing unbeatable Storm. I can't say that I'm interested in spending $400 on a SB card. I played discard and Storm won through it. Looks like I'm going Mindbreak Trap or bust.

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Originally Posted by HateKnuckle

The problem isn't that I'm facing too much Storm but that I'm facing unbeatable Storm. I can't say that I'm interested in spending $400 on a SB card. I played discard and Storm won through it. Looks like I'm going Mindbreak Trap or bust.

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That said you can probably board Chains in vs about every blue deck ever. It simply wrecks the shit out of them. Also vs other decks running Sylvan Library.

Chains isn't the only hate piece. Thorn and Chalice will come down turn 2 to slow Storm down, follow up with Trinisphere or Liliana. Discard isn't enough, and most Storm will run discard spells of their own to take out Traps.

Traps are very tough to play against Storm as they keep the probes in and get after you with discard of their own. I use 4 cage and a null rod and a chains, but I'm still behind in the mu. Its just not a good mu for us.

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Originally Posted by defector

Traps are very tough to play against Storm as they keep the probes in and get after you with discard of their own. I use 4 cage and a null rod and a chains, but I'm still behind in the mu. Its just not a good mu for us.

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The matchup is pretty bad. I would concentrate on Delver, Miracles, and Eldrazi. Discard combined with Slaughter Games and Cage should get you there enough of the time. Chains is fine, but he doesnt pull his weight for cost of purchase. Id rather just Choke or Boil some fools.

Just an FYI to say that Avalanche Riders is doing fucking WORK in testing against Miracles.

The old SB Sinkhole tech still works wonders against Miracle. Probably better than Riders and more relevant in various matchups.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Just an FYI to say that Avalanche Riders is doing fucking WORK in testing against Miracles.

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This does sound awesome, plus it's Haste, which is a very difficult thing for Miracles to answer. Specially that you can hit Jace, and Jace WON't want to knock it back to your hand.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

This does sound awesome, plus it's Haste, which is a very difficult thing for Miracles to answer. Specially that you can hit Jace, and Jace WON't want to knock it back to your hand.

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Played more Miracles and it was good. 4 is a bit of a bitch, just like Bloodbraid, but nuking basics to destabilize them has been okay. Was a bit slow against Eldrazi, though.

Have you tryied recently any list without the Punishing Fire package? My meta has a lot of Reanimator and Eldrazi and S&T decks, and the Pfire lists seems too slow and also 3/4 groves impacts in the manabase. Returning to list with Grim lavamancers, more red i.e rabblemaster and Blood moon in side could also help with the loss of Pfires against eldrazi lists.

Just to speed up the first turns, wouldn't be possible to include some number of dark rituals in order to cast turn 1 liliana or TS/deathrite + Hymn? I know that in lategame are terrible, but worst case we can eat our dark rituals with deathrites or grim lavamancers.

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Originally Posted by Sergi

Have you tryied recently any list without the Punishing Fire package? My meta has a lot of Reanimator and Eldrazi and S&T decks, and the Pfire lists seems too slow and also 3/4 groves impacts in the manabase. Returning to list with Grim lavamancers, more red i.e rabblemaster and Blood moon in side could also help with the loss of Pfires against eldrazi lists.

Just to speed up the first turns, wouldn't be possible to include some number of dark rituals in order to cast turn 1 liliana or TS/deathrite + Hymn? I know that in lategame are terrible, but worst case we can eat our dark rituals with deathrites or grim lavamancers.

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Might as well as just play pox?

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

Might as well as just play pox?

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Because of the price of the actual pox... (chains, abyss, tabernacle...) also I prefer to go more aggro.

True enough, but if you are ditching the PFire package for Grim Lavamancers, let's say you go from 7 cards to 3 or 4? The main problem with Lavamancers is that they are easy to deal with - in the grindy matches you'll need them the only way to stop you would be wastelands, but now it's both a well placed wasteland on a dual or a sword to plowshares on GL. You could try that though, and go overboard with 4 bolts and more indeck discards such as both Kozilek and TS and etc for the extra reach vs combo. When TNN was a thing I'd run a few Chainer's Edict. Good vs Sneak Show.

That said GL is far weaker than PF when it comes to fair matches.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

True enough, but if you are ditching the PFire package for Grim Lavamancers, let's say you go from 7 cards to 3 or 4? The main problem with Lavamancers is that they are easy to deal with - in the grindy matches you'll need them the only way to stop you would be wastelands, but now it's both a well placed wasteland on a dual or a sword to plowshares on GL. You could try that though, and go overboard with 4 bolts and more indeck discards such as both Kozilek and TS and etc for the extra reach vs combo. When TNN was a thing I'd run a few Chainer's Edict. Good vs Sneak Show.

That said GL is far weaker than PF when it comes to fair matches.

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The plan is increase bolts to 4 MD (+1 increase) and 2 Grim Lavamcers. The other 3/4 slots (lands) will be replaced with corresponding duals giving more consitency to the deck as previoulsy discussed in this thread.

Grim Lavamancer is another permament that they need to deal with, so less hate againt your Goyfs or Deathrites. Removing punishing and increasing "Graveyard users", makes you stronger against opponent's surgical.
Grindy matches, you will fill your graveyard for using against them for doing 2 damange even with DS or GL. This also helps reducing the deck curve (-3 cards with CMC 2 & +3 CMC 1) and allows to include some threat with higher mana cost to compensate Dark Confidant draws.

I agree with the extra edict effect vs Sneak & Show decks.

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Originally Posted by Sergi

The plan is increase bolts to 4 MD (+1 increase) and 2 Grim Lavamcers. The other 3/4 slots (lands) will be replaced with corresponding duals giving more consitency to the deck as previoulsy discussed in this thread.

Grim Lavamancer is another permament that they need to deal with, so less hate againt your Goyfs or Deathrites. Removing punishing and increasing "Graveyard users", makes you stronger against opponent's surgical.
Grindy matches, you will fill your graveyard for using against them for doing 2 damange even with DS or GL. This also helps reducing the deck curve (-3 cards with CMC 2 & +3 CMC 1) and allows to include some threat with higher mana cost to compensate Dark Confidant draws.

I agree with the extra edict effect vs Sneak & Show decks.

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I personally never cared for Pfire. I'm often on the fence with BBE too, but I have never comfortably ran Pfire. Usually meta's are to diverse for me think it would be a wise choice. I also prefer the much more consistent mana base that comes from it. That being said, I run 4 Wastelands too, which I believe Pfire builds may not be able to adequately capitalize on.

Just made the jund (have played it in mdern for over a year) and i was able to walk miracles consistantly. If it could hymn qnd get lilly down it was pretty easy....however, i struggles against matches i thought jund would shine like dnt and infect. Is this normal? It makes me so sad....im playing pfore btw

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

Just made the jund (have played it in mdern for over a year) and i was able to walk miracles consistantly. If it could hymn qnd get lilly down it was pretty easy....however, i struggles against matches i thought jund would shine like dnt and infect. Is this normal? It makes me so sad....im playing pfore btw

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D&T can be a surprisingly difficult matchup. We have a lot of removal against them, but the problem is that if your removal lines up incorrectly you will get into a lot of trouble quickly (Examples: you can't kill Mother on the draw, you have Fire when they have Avenger or Decay when they have Crusader).

Against Infect you have to play carefully since they can kill out of nowhere. Sometimes they'll just have it and kill you through removal. Try to use burn on their creatures on your turn to not get killed by pump spells in combat, play around Vines to the best of your ability. We're very favored in the long game here. Inkmoth can be their scariest threat since it can't be Decay'ed and outside of Wasteland we have to interact with it on their turn.

For your situation I'd suggest playing at least 3 Bolts main. Cheap removal is at a premium against these decks in general and especially on the draw. Golgari Charm is also a nice SB card against both decks, since it kills creatures and RIP (sometimes played in Infect too), and Library out of Infect.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

D&T can be a surprisingly difficult matchup. We have a lot of removal against them, but the problem is that if your removal lines up incorrectly you will get into a lot of trouble quickly (Examples: you can't kill Mother on the draw, you have Fire when they have Avenger or Decay when they have Crusader).

Against Infect you have to play carefully since they can kill out of nowhere. Sometimes they'll just have it and kill you through removal. Try to use burn on their creatures on your turn to not get killed by pump spells in combat, play around Vines to the best of your ability. We're very favored in the long game here. Inkmoth can be their scariest threat since it can't be Decay'ed and outside of Wasteland we have to interact with it on their turn.

For your situation I'd suggest playing at least 3 Bolts main. Cheap removal is at a premium against these decks in general and especially on the draw. Golgari Charm is also a nice SB card against both decks, since it kills creatures and RIP (sometimes played in Infect too), and Library out of Infect.

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Yes it seemed hard to remove the inkomoths. They were my main fear. It got to a point where i tried to wasteland one, my friend would animate it then vines it......i didnt it coming...dnt was rough. Id have pfire and abrupt but only have 3 lands, it was rough overall

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Originally Posted by Whit3boy316

Yes it seemed hard to remove the inkomoths. They were my main fear. It got to a point where i tried to wasteland one, my friend would animate it then vines it......i didnt it coming...dnt was rough. Id have pfire and abrupt but only have 3 lands, it was rough overall

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Other SB choices effective vs Inkmoth: Pithing Needle, Life from the Loam, Tsabo's Web, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge. These are all applicable in other matchups as well.