[Deck]BUx Reanimator

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Originally Posted by alaska

Good writeup and congratulations on a good finish.

How is the meta in your area? I am always curious who metas vary in different regions.

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Thanks, bro!
The meta changes a lot. We have only one legacy league here in Rio, and every top8 looks different from the others. I was expecting a lot more D&T and Miracles, but people change decks frequently. Overall, we have a very health meta.


Two things about the other discussions:

I love 1-main Animate dead. Another reanimation spell that does not cost life is really REALLY helpful, specially considering that this could mean activating grisebrand one more time. Yeah, it can be abrupted, but i think it's totally worth it.

I was considering buying the red cards from the BR version so I could change from time to time. What are the main differences between the BUg version and the BR version? The play style changes a lot or sticking to the basic plan works?

Thank you!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-Reanimator

This is the link you're looking for if you want to know more about BR Reanimator.

So... Lotus Pedal. What is the general consensus and why for playing 3 verse 4 petals? Scanning through the builds on TC Decks from last 2 years, it seems that there isn't a lot rhyme or reason on why. Main deck or sideboard doesn't even seem to play a factor. Does it just boil down to personal preference?

Well, you want one on turn 1, turn 2 is meh, anything after that, it's a dead draw. The only other time you are okay with the second one is when you are drawing in increments of 7, or they have a Blood Moon out and you have a basic swamp on the battlefield with an Abrupt Decay in hand. 3 is the right number. Test it if you feel compelled to do so, but I am certain 3x Lotus Petal is right, if for no other reason than space.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Well, you want one on turn 1, turn 2 is meh, anything after that, it's a dead draw. The only other time you are okay with the second one is when you are drawing in increments of 7, or they have a Blood Moon out and you have a basic swamp on the battlefield with an Abrupt Decay in hand. 3 is the right number. Test it if you feel compelled to do so, but I am certain 3x Lotus Petal is right, if for no other reason than space.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

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Dunno there ... based on your logic, seems like you would want four.

Also, being that Daze is heavily played, having petal early let you play around it.

Someone good at crunching numbers and probability would have to back this up, but I remember listening to a podcast with Patrick Chapin a year or 2 ago, and he was talking about deckbuilding, and I remember him saying that 3 copies of a card is the ideal number for a deck when you want to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand while also minimizing the chances of drawing a second one later in the game. That fits perfectly for Lotus Petal. The first one in your opening hand is tremendous, while every petal you draw afterwards is pretty lousy generally. So with that in mind, I do think 3 is the proper number for the maindeck.

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Originally Posted by Ephemeron

Someone good at crunching numbers and probability would have to back this up, but I remember listening to a podcast with Patrick Chapin a year or 2 ago, and he was talking about deckbuilding, and I remember him saying that 3 copies of a card is the ideal number for a deck when you want to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand while also minimizing the chances of drawing a second one later in the game. That fits perfectly for Lotus Petal. The first one in your opening hand is tremendous, while every petal you draw afterwards is pretty lousy generally. So with that in mind, I do think 3 is the proper number for the maindeck.

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This is accurate. Anyone can run a hypergeometric calculator, here's the numbers:

Population size: 60
Successes: 3 or 4
Sample size: 7
Successes in sample: 1

There's charts to show probabilities over draws throughout the game, but just in your opener the chance of having 2 or more (x > 1) of a 4-of is 6%. Cutting one copy down to 3 reduces the odds of dupes in the opener to 3%. So, 1 out of 18 games versus 1 out of 33 you'll start with dupes in your opener.

There was a thread somewhere with a very good layout of the math involved.... oh yeah here it is. The image links are bad, but a spreadsheet showing the breakdown is still alive. For now.

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Originally Posted by DoorDie

This is accurate. Anyone can run a hypergeometric calculator, here's the numbers:

Population size: 60
Successes: 3 or 4
Sample size: 7
Successes in sample: 1

There's charts to show probabilities over draws throughout the game, but just in your opener the chance of having 2 or more (x > 1) of a 4-of is 6%. Cutting one copy down to 3 reduces the odds of dupes in the opener to 3%. So, 1 out of 18 games versus 1 out of 33 you'll start with dupes in your opener.

There was a thread somewhere with a very good layout of the math involved.... oh yeah here it is. The image links are bad, but a spreadsheet showing the breakdown is still alive. For now.

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Very good read. Thanks for sharing the links.

I remember that many years ago (on the old thread) there was a discussion on the right numbers of each card in order to combo off as fast as possible, and that led to strange results.

Look at this list for example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post557103

Only 2 maindeck brainstorms in order to play more business spells: the reasoning behind was that the value of our combo decreases as the game goes on, so casting cantrips was like a "waste" of time comparing to a more threat-dense MD.
Note however the other 2 copies of brainstorm in the side because they are good in grindy MU and for finding sideboard pieces.
That list placed 2nd on a SCG.

Many post followed that list, open mindly discuting and calculating the benefits of each card, maybe you can find some inspiration here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post560048
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post561631
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post562373

Unfortunately the images with the percentiles are not to be found anymore :(

Just some food for thoughts.

That all being said, I find that Tidespout Tyrant gets me out of so many jams, and Lotus Petal is the best card to pair with it. Maybe it's just my small sample size with the deck but so far I've used Tyrant to repeatedly bounce a Maze of Ith, bounce a Shown & Told Emrakul, and bounce a Reality Smasher (with Brainstorm). This deck isn't really built to grind and almost every topdeck is terrible if they deal with your first guy, I'd rather up my chances of having the explosive starts.

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Originally Posted by maharis

That all being said, I find that Tidespout Tyrant gets me out of so many jams, and Lotus Petal is the best card to pair with it. Maybe it's just my small sample size with the deck but so far I've used Tyrant to repeatedly bounce a Maze of Ith, bounce a Shown & Told Emrakul, and bounce a Reality Smasher (with Brainstorm). This deck isn't really built to grind and almost every topdeck is terrible if they deal with your first guy, I'd rather up my chances of having the explosive starts.

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Side question, why doesn't this deck play Ashen Rider?

I've had that card get me out of so many jams against random stuff and great against Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

Side question, why doesn't this deck play Ashen Rider?

I've had that card get me out of so many jams against random stuff and great against Show and Tell.

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Probably because for most players, opposing Show and Tells are at a record low from recent history.
If you're 100% in on your own S&T sideboard (or mainboard) plan, then Ashen Rider is a fair choice. Most players will tell you Tidespout Tyrant has much the same role, and he just does it better.

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I remember that many years ago (on the old thread) there was a discussion on the right numbers of each card in order to combo off as fast as possible, and that led to strange results.

Look at this list for example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post557103

Only 2 maindeck brainstorms in order to play more business spells: the reasoning behind was that the value of our combo decreases as the game goes on, so casting cantrips was like a "waste" of time comparing to a more threat-dense MD.
Note however the other 2 copies of brainstorm in the side because they are good in grindy MU and for finding sideboard pieces.
...

Just some food for thoughts.

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Ahh the Misstep era. Well I can imagine Brainstorm was a lot less good then, especially for a deck that's not so well positioned to fight over it (and doesn't care that much anyway).

And yes, they're leaning on the sheer redundancy we have I always preach about. Imagine if Elves could have up to 8 copies of Glimpse, or S&T have 4 more copies of their namesake card... I have no idea if it'd be good, but they'd probably be more consistent!

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Probably because for most players, opposing Show and Tells are at a record low from recent history.
If you're 100% in on your own S&T sideboard (or mainboard) plan, then Ashen Rider is a fair choice. Most players will tell you Tidespout Tyrant has much the same role, and he just does it better.

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Would it be correct to play Elesh Norn main in a heavy D&T meta?

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

Would it be correct to play Elesh Norn main in a heavy D&T meta?

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Don't mean to interrupt, but she's your silver bullet for Elves, Dredge, D&T (if you can fade Karakas and Swords), and very good against fair decks like RUG Delver. I would say she's standard in the main, and my personal second choice after Griselbrand.

The list from Bazaar of Moxen was a bit exotic, here's a more standard build: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13497&d=279362&f=LE

Interested to hear PirateKing's angle on her as well.

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

Would it be correct to play Elesh Norn main in a heavy D&T meta?

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How do yo mean play?

If you mean somwehere in your 75, then god yes. Her effect is unmatched and irreplaceable. Easy on the eyes too :cool:

If you mean specifically in your mainboard, then probably still yes. She's not going to shine as brightly against D&T as she would against Elves or Infect, but she'll be a must-answer threat for her entire stay on the board. Problem is, that answer seems to come all too easy for them. Swords to Plowshares & Karakas are omnipresent threats, but even a crippled Serra Avenger holding a Jitte is a winning clock for them. She'll still do well, like coming in behind another threat to reduce any counterattacks from their creatures and forcing them to produce two answers before they die. All this on top of all the work she does against many other decks, you'd need a perversely warped meta of nothing but D&T running 4 Karakas and some copies of Crusade before I'd consider cutting her from the front 60. So if that's what you mean by a heavy D&T meta, then I'd recommend finding a different shop, because that's awful.

If you mean as your first choice creature from an Entomb, then no. Game 1 would probably be Griselbrand; even if immediately answered, drawing 7 would fuel a second go around to push through whatever they might have. Game 2 would be Inkwell Leviathan, hands down. Their least expensive answer is Council's Judgement, and barring a substantial number of creatures attacking back at you, he'll close the game out fast. Other choices like Archetype of Endurance or Grave Titan would work with limitations to their effectiveness, but all are made better with a follow up Elesh Norn. So for that reason alone I won't be cutting her after game 1, in any matchup really. Maybe against High Tide? Nourishing Lich?

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

How do yo mean play?

If you mean somwehere in your 75, then god yes. Her effect is unmatched and irreplaceable. Easy on the eyes too :cool:

If you mean specifically in your mainboard, then probably still yes. She's not going to shine as brightly against D&T as she would against Elves or Infect, but she'll be a must-answer threat for her entire stay on the board. Problem is, that answer seems to come all too easy for them. Swords to Plowshares & Karakas are omnipresent threats, but even a crippled Serra Avenger holding a Jitte is a winning clock for them. She'll still do well, like coming in behind another threat to reduce any counterattacks from their creatures and forcing them to produce two answers before they die. All this on top of all the work she does against many other decks, you'd need a perversely warped meta of nothing but D&T running 4 Karakas and some copies of Crusade before I'd consider cutting her from the front 60. So if that's what you mean by a heavy D&T meta, then I'd recommend finding a different shop, because that's awful.

If you mean as your first choice creature from an Entomb, then no. Game 1 would probably be Griselbrand; even if immediately answered, drawing 7 would fuel a second go around to push through whatever they might have. Game 2 would be Inkwell Leviathan, hands down. Their least expensive answer is Council's Judgement, and barring a substantial number of creatures attacking back at you, he'll close the game out fast. Other choices like Archetype of Endurance or Grave Titan would work with limitations to their effectiveness, but all are made better with a follow up Elesh Norn. So for that reason alone I won't be cutting her after game 1, in any matchup really. Maybe against High Tide? Nourishing Lich?

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On the topic of Inkwell Leviathan, I put one in my sideboard because we have a player on D&T in our meta. I didn't bring it in against Shardless BUG which cost me the game. I had a Needle on Liliana and an Elesh Norn in play vs. his Tarmogoyf. Had to fade a Jace, which of course he drew, bounced Elesh. I had Entomb + Exhume vs. his empty hand, but the best I could do was Grave Titan, which was bounced by Jace and the zombies eaten by Tarmogoyf before I could figure anything else out.

That got me thinking: Is Inkwell a better threat than Titan, either in G1 or overall? I have yet to be very impressed with Titan, it's basically there in case of Liliana but I can't imagine there are going to be too many game 1s where I go for Titan and then they are able to resolve a Liliana (I will probably go for Griselbrand first in the dark and hope to hit Force + blue or Daze a Liliana, if not just set up a second combo. Or, I will try to set up Iona on black, which is what I did to win G1 against this player). I guess the advantage of titan is sometimes you accidentally cast him? (I have been on the other end of that).

Has anyone ever tested either of the Sigardas? The original is close to unkillable, while the new one can't be edicted and allows you to build a ground army with your used business spells and fetchlands. Also gives you something to do under Grafdigger's Cage.

Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sigarda, Heron's Grace

Inkwell is good against targeted removal and it's fun to trample over something under Mom's protection.
Grave Titan is good against edicts and winning races against grounded creatures like Goyf and Angler.

So depending on your anticipated game 1, you could swap the position of either. Against an unknown opponent, both are third string creatures, so I wouldn't sweat the numbers too much on them.

For me it's the fact that in a vacuum, Grave Titan is a 2 turn clock and Inkwell Leviathan is a 3 turn clock.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Has anyone ever tested either of the Sigardas? The original is close to unkillable, while the new one can't be edicted and allows you to build a ground army with your used business spells and fetchlands. Also gives you something to do under Grafdigger's Cage.
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sigarda, Heron's Grace

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The new Sigarda is pretty terrible; it's a 5 turn clock that would struggle to race even 1 hatebear after you cast Reanimate. The old one, while hard to kill, isn't a great payoff card. If you're in the market for a 5/5 flier that's hard to kill, I think you have to get Sphinx of the Final Word. Otherwise you probably use ArchPig for Sigarda-like text.

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Originally Posted by Fox

The new Sigarda is pretty terrible; it's a 5 turn clock that would struggle to race even 1 hatebear after you cast Reanimate. The old one, while hard to kill, isn't a great payoff card. If you're in the market for a 5/5 flier that's hard to kill, I think you have to get Sphinx of the Final Word. Otherwise you probably use ArchPig for Sigarda-like text.

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I've been playing Archetype of Endurance main and haven't been impressed. Is Inkwell Leviathan just a better option?