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It's too expensive for a deck that plays already a main spell of 4 mana + a number of spells that cost 3, and all of this with only 20 lands (and 4 deathrite shaman).
An extra spell that costs 4 or 5 needs to cause the win (ad nauseam,...) but here it's absolutely not the case unless aluren is already on the board, and in that case we are probably already winning.
That makes sense, and in that light I suppose it's almost unplayable in the form of win-more?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moneymakermich
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
You could also just play a Recruiter-based Aluren build, which is the 1card Tutor you-win the deck has always had access to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
This is exactly what I was thinking. If that kind of effect were necessary we'd just play 8 recruiters. It's a sweet looking card, but too expensive for my taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolutflipz
I understand the general mechanics of how the combo operates, but I wonder if anybody would be able to take a deep dive into the specifics of what's happening on the stack when you do the combo optimally.
In particular, I have a couple of questions:
First, assuming you have both Parasitic and Harpy in hand, which do you cast first? My understanding is that Harpy comes out first, and Parasitic is cast in response to the ETB effect of Harpy. Is this correct? Is the only reason that Harpy is cast first is to ensure that there's a black permanent on board for Parasitic's ETB? Or is there a still a reason even if you do already have a black permanent in play?
Second, how much of the stack in each step of the loop gets resolved before you move on to the next iteration? I saw a MODO match where the aluren player had multiple unresolved Strix effects on the stack (as a result, losing lots of life from their Harpy activations without yet getting it back). Is there an advantage to doing it this way rather than just letting a single loop resolve before moving on to the next one?
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaximandr
You should always cast Harpy first. Your opponent can't kill her because you can pay life in response as many times as needed, so they must target Strix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaximandr
1) Cast Strix --> resolve Strix and its trigger --> cast Harpy -/-> kill Strix in response
or
2) Cast Harpy --> resolve and put trigger on stack --> cast Strix --> resolve Strix and its trigger --> wait for Harpy trigger to resolve
They don't do anything? return Strix.
They try to kill Strix? In response activate Harpy, return and recast; enter and trigger again to bounce Strix. They try to kill Strix in response to Harpy on the stack? Bad luck, but they needed 2 removal spells. The first way required just one.
Harpy on the stack is the chain's weakest link. Anyone worth their salt will try to stop you at that moment.
Stacking unresolved Strix triggers requires casting it and Harpy in the "wrong" order. The deck also doesn't reward you at all for suiciding like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaximandr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaximandr
What Nonex said above is correct with the Harpy into Strix order.
I suggest literally getting the two cards out and physically doing the operations to truly see it. You'll then see how if you keep starting the cycle over with Harpy-->gating trigger--->Strix--->resolve gating returning Strix-->pay 1 life, return Hapry, repeat will not leave the Strix exposed.
The second part of your question the only thing I can think of, if I'm reading this correctly, is something like putting a bunch of drain 2 triggers on the stack repeatedly responding to an opposing Leovold's "draw a card trigger" so that if you have at least enough more life than your opponent (I think +1 more than half their life total), you can put all the drain 2 triggers on the stack before your opponent gets to draw all the cards from their Leovold and potentially find an answer to your chain.
Well, when I answered that question I thought about Aluren itself and nothing else, in which case casting Strix first or paying excessive life never makes sense, but this is a situation where stacking triggers is completely justified. It's risky if you can't cast preemptive Therapies against their removal, but allowing them to draw cards between triggers is definitely game-losing. In a metagame full of Leovolds I'd rather replace Strix with Kalastria Healer, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolutflipz
Given his popularity, are people considering this change as the deck standard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonex
Maybe I wrote it a little confusing, but doing it that way *responds* to the Leovold draw triggers such that you put however many *Strix drain 2 triggers* on the stack (10 if you're opp is at 20) and then it doesn't matter if your opponent gets to draw 10 cards from their Leovold as the *Strix drain 2 triggers* are already on the stack so they can have their 10 cards and then take 20 from the triggers. Obviously, weird corner cases like managing your life total around a potential Bolt they draw if you're going down to 3 or less could come up, but you can probably play around this. That's beyond the main point, though, as this is purely to show how you can play around an opposing Leovold with the Harpy/Strix combo and basically invalidate their Leovold for the turn you kill them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonex
Kalastria Healer is a worse card overall than Strix and I definitely would not replace Strix. As discussed, Leovold isn't an issue (it's also only a 2-of in like 4/20+ decks), Strix pitches to FoW, a relevant flying blocker for Delver, and just a decent threat in some games, as well as applications against burn.
I'm working on this version right now:
// MAIN DECK
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Arctic Merfolk
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Shardless Agent
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
// SIDEBOARD
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Vengeful Rebel
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
I am still into the version that forge together Recruiter-version and the blue-version with cantrips. Ponders makes this one very consistent and easier to win but I like the instant win with Recruiter. The only thing I am not ready to accept is FoW right now. I still try other ways to deal with combos (Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist, Faerie Macabre, discard), but I need more matchups.
The SB creatures are to answer specific threads during comboing or to be found with Recruiter before I go off. Ethersworn Canonist fights my combo as well, but against Storm I fell little slower so I want to stop him and prepare for my win - either just grinding or sacrificing EC to Cabal Therapy and win from there. The rest SB is obvious.
I had some success with this deck online and now I am going paper.
Is anyone else here still on the red splash with imperial recruiter?
I use the Imperial version, I haven't changed my list in a few months though, I was helping my friend prep for the SCG Invitational.Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
Ah alright. I was trying to look for discussion on the red version but it appears people are on BUG or the white recruiter version
I also play Imperial version, my current version is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
4 aluren
1 biblioteca silvestre
4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
4 imperial recruiter
1 cavern harpy
1 parasitic strix
2 dream stalker
1 eternal witness
1 reclamation sage
4 baleful strix
2 leovold
2 coiling oracle
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
2 wooded footlish
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 taiga
2 forest
1 island
1 swamp
side:
4 swan song
1 null rod
1 pitting needle
2 dread of night
2 Gravedigger's Cage
2 back to basic
1 bone shredder
2 scavengening ooze
but I'not sure about back to basic... it can slow BUG (one of the worst MU) but it's not resolutive... and can't stop LANDS... for other sideboard cards I had try and works well.
I had choose 4 swan song for ELVES, OMNISHOW, TES, ANT because before I had try with 2 thoughtseize and 2 counters but I loose every game for opponent's top deck. with 4 swing song I have usually an answer to his top deck.
coiling oracle maindeck is a must in my opinion... he can help me with lands in the game when opponent has rishadan or wasteland... with brainstorm and/or cabal therapy is one of the broken trick we can do in the early game and sometimes I use Oracle for win when my opponent has in play leovold.... when I go in combo I can't search one of the 2 leovold with recruiter but I can add cards to my have with Harpy since I can found a Leovold too :tongue:
I saw this deck 5-0'd recently, does anyone have some experience playing something similar and have any thoughts of the pros/cons?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...bg-39421#paper
I've played a deck like this but with less silver bullet like scooze or meren. And you could even play more than this: think eternal witness for example.
Like I stated some pages before, I've found the zenith package very fun to play but not competitive enough.
This list lacks some focus, personnally, I don't like the 1xJace, scooze should be sideboard, etc...
Pro is mainly that you better stabilize your mana, even against a chalice of the void. But you should need some more sacrifice outlets for example phyrexian tower (which is a must in this build) or even pernicious deed.
Con is mainly that it is slow, and that you help your opponent obviously.
The midrange matchups get better but against combo, you have no chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastnile
This list shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the deck.
He only plays a single Man-O 'War to get during the Aluren ---> Recruiter chain. Man-o'War targets so the opponent just swords, bolts, decays, pushes, etc.. the targetted Recruiter and there ends your chain.
With White Recruiters you need to play 2-of Arctic Merfolk/Quickling. With Red Recruiters you need to play 2 Dream Stalkers.
Otherwise,if you play only 1 of the above creatures, any competent (and I mean paying even a little bit of attention or having the most basic knowledge) will just break up your going off from an Aluren into Recruiter by playing a removal spell on your 1 Arctic/Quickling/Stalker when you play Harpy hoping to return that blue creature to continue along. In the above list, Man-o'War is even worse as you don't even get to the point of rebuying the Recruiter to get the Harpy as they'll just remove the Recruiter you target with Man-o'war in the first place.
Planning for your opponent to always be tapped out or having no removal spells is not a justification. Of course, 1 of the 2 Merfolk/Quickling/Stalker can be boarded out in several MUs which don't feature removal spells.
You could also just play one o them and pay the life to return the Harpy to hand to recast it off the Aluren in response the to the removal spell. 2 Isn't needed, but it's a nice safety net.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolutflipz
That won't work - they just cast the removal spell on your one Arctic/Quickling/Stalker *in response* to your casting the Harpy you search up. The Harpy is never on the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry