Guys what do you think about Chimeric Mass?
In my opionion could be very useful to construct Pox Deck.
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Guys what do you think about Chimeric Mass?
In my opionion could be very useful to construct Pox Deck.
I think it's worse than Chimeric Idol.
That kind of backwards thinking isn't going to get anywhere because it hasn't taken Pox anywhere in the last few years. Pox has been a pet deck since the inception of Legacy. Now, with Liliana being printed and Reid Duke's 3rd placing with it in the SCG Invitational, Pox has the potential to make a comeback and possibly be a tournament mainstay. Be a part of the new wave rather than be a wannabe-elitist (I use the word "elitist" very lightly) to divide the thread into "those who have experience" and "If you don't have a turn 1 play ... BEFORE Pox you should just scoop and possibly quit Magic." In the words of Big Ghostfase aka Cocaine Biceps aka Thor Molecules aka Zeus Hands: "Fuck outta here son."Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJunkie
Also, news flash:
Smallpox > Pox. Has been ever since Time Spiral was released. Running 4 Smallpox is always right and running 0-4 Pox is negotiable in any build.
If anything, the deck should be called "Smallpox" but because smallpox is a derivation of the word pox that's why the deck is still called Pox. Actually, from here on out, I'm referring to any deck with Smallpox in it to be a "Smallpox" deck.
[/feeding the troll]
Anyways, now that I got that out of my chest, I've been playing with my flex removal slot of Tendrils of Corruption i.e. freaking cutting it. It is regrettably too slow and very inconsequential against aggro. I must admit the truth.
Now I'm trying Maze of Ith. I'm noticing a big improvement and I think I just learned something about deckbuilding. Here's why Maze of Ith is an excellent choice for the flex removal slot:
1. The slot is for targeted removal because the 4th MD Innocent Blood is unnecessary. Maze of Ith functions as targeted removal, and it's immune to any color-based protection that some creatures may have (Etched Champion).
2. It's a land. It doesn't produce mana, but if you have Urborg on the battlefield, you not only have your next land drop but you have a land that has a double duty of being a removal spell.
3. It's a land. Stated again because of Smallpox and Pox. Maze of Ith gives you an opportunity to preserve your mana sources while casting your Smallpox effects. On the subject of deflecting attention from your mana sources, Maze of Ith can also be used to draw your opponent into saccing Wasteland, and we all know how we like the opponent doing our work of destroying their manabase for us.
4. It's a land. Stated again because of Liliana. Drawing a Maze after you have Liliana online means you can just play it and not have to discard an otherwise removal spell. Every advantage counts.
The fact that three of the four reasons include "being a land" teaches me something about deckbuilding, that lands that act as spells are great flex options. I spend so much time thinking on a small tweak like this with numerous spells but it's so much easier and intuitive it is to go with a land that functions as a spell.
I'm pretty happy with Maze of Ith but here's my list of ideas for the flex removal slot (good ones, I promise!):
Maze of Ith - Lands that act as spells are good, especially in SMALLpox decks.
Dismember - Why didn't I think of this before? It can be pretty tough on the lifeloss... until you remember you're playing mono-black. You're more often than not spending 2 or 0 life rather than the whole 4.
Ghastly Demise - Very easy to cast. I think Dismember would be better though.
Pro advice: If you're running both Nether Void and The Abyss in your 75, then don't forget the "World rule."
Sidenote: Nether Void is the black Standstill.
Maybe something to consider, if you're going to run Maze of Ith see if you can fit in Crop Rotation.
I actually have a GW control deck that runs the following with Crop Rotation, just for reference:
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mutavault
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Wasteland
Being able to crop rotation for a Maze after being attacked, or getting a key Wasteland is a life saver. It could really be helpful even fetching for a Urborg to mana fix, or include a single Bojuka Bog agaist certain decks. If you're runnign a BG list you could just Loam back all your lands too. Flagstones is clutch but might be tough to pull off three color. It's weakness would obviously be decks with a lot of blue :/
A thousand time this. I don't see any other deck where players are so resistant to change something that simply isn't putting up results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Big Pox is just underwhelming every time I cast it or have it cast against me. It's almost always the same as Smallpox with 2-3 extra damage thrown in. If you're really attached to it and you want to run it, fine, but enough with berating anyone that wants to try a different direction.
@IBA: I did some playtesting with a similar Loam-based list, but the main problem I kept encountering was binning actual spells to get Loam back, then having nothing significant to do with those lands. I've also found that Liliana's +1 rarely proves to be symmetrical, as I run Cabal Therapy and Bloodghast, and generally can empty my hand before activating her anyway. Personally I think Top is going to be better in the long run, as Pox seems to be a deck that's more concerned with card quality than card advantage.
Full disclosure, this is the list I'm currently testing:
4 Bloodghast
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
3 Innocent Blood
4 Wasteland
11 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cursed Scroll
2 The Rack
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spinning Darkness
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 1 Nether Void
So far It's showing promise, but I'm toying with the idea of possibly Meekstone or Ensnaring Bridge, and also with Crucible/Factories, although last time I tried that I found having enough black sources to be an issue. Just waiting for Liliana's price to drop so I can run it IRL.
is the rack really better than cursed scroll when you're playing sinkholes and wastelands? seems like you're trying to prevent them from casting spells... and even with discard it's unlikely that you'll be able to keep their hand empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
meekstone seems better if you're running nether traitor - you'll still need something to block in that case which bloodghast is pretty terrible at. although i suppose you're running bitterblossoms, so maybe that's not that big of a deal.
Not sure if it's better, but in nearly every game I've played with it so far, it ends up with 0 cards in hand on both sides within a few turns. The main issue I have with Cursed Scroll is the activation cost. Between Smallpox and Waste, even with 22 lands it seems like I rarely have more than 2-3 in play, and I keep finding myself choosing between Top and Scroll. On the other hand, it's a card that some decks just can't deal with, hits a bunch of relevant creatures, and is basically the only defense against a resolved plainswalker.
Honestly I'm on the fence about the Rack. I can see where it has the potential to be a good clock, but it doesn't really affect the game state on its own, and if you have board control, Ghasts and Scroll make for a pretty inevitable clock.
I like The Rack, but in Legacy there are way too many creatures you need to be a-killin' with Scroll. Once I killed a flashed Spellstutter Sprite with Scroll in order to let my Inquisition resolve. Scroll is that good.
Can you redirect The Rack's damage to planeswalkers?
Yes, The Rack can be redirected to planeswalkers. So it does have that going for it, and it is certainly less mana intensive than cursed scroll. I think the ability to kill creatures with scroll trumps the rack though, even though it does cost a bit of mana.
One other question that maybe someone can weigh in on... is Nether Void really that much better than Trinisphere?
Thanks for answering my question. Now I'll answer yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
The answer is a resounding YES. Trinisphere only limits <3 CC spells. Nether Void affects ALL spells. It's utterly surprising how I legitimately thought this card was a piece of crap since the first time I saw it (and even lost to it!) until I saw the Reid Duke list, but it is one powerful card if wielded correctly.
I'll say this phrase again so more people can coin it: Nether Void is the black Standstill. And similar to how Landstill decks can get around their own Standstills, we can get around Nether Void using Factory, Nether Spirit, Liliana, and Cursed Scroll.
No one is trying to be an elitest or obviously I wouldn't have shared a list/info, LOL. This is about being more knowledgeable/better POX players... something of which many are being stubborn and know-it-alls by dismissing obvious experience (all over this thread) or playtesting completely.Quote:
That kind of backwards thinking isn't going to get anywhere because it hasn't taken Pox anywhere in the last few years. Pox has been a pet deck since the inception of Legacy. Now, with Liliana being printed and Reid Duke's 3rd placing with it in the SCG Invitational, Pox has the potential to make a comeback and possibly be a tournament mainstay. Be a part of the new wave rather than be a wannabe-elitist (I use the word "elitist" very lightly) to divide the thread into "those who have experience" and "If you don't have a turn 1 play ... BEFORE Pox you should just scoop and possibly quit Magic." In the words of Big Ghostfase aka Cocaine Biceps aka Thor Molecules aka Zeus Hands: "Fuck outta here son."
Also, news flash:
Smallpox > Pox. Has been ever since Time Spiral was released. Running 4 Smallpox is always right and running 0-4 Pox is negotiable in any build.
If anything, the deck should be called "Smallpox" but because smallpox is a derivation of the word pox that's why the deck is still called Pox. Actually, from here on out, I'm referring to any deck with Smallpox in it to be a "Smallpox" deck.
Pox (or Smallpox) decks are actually in a great position as Reid elaborates in his SC article. However, there is two main directions you can take and that's focusing on Pox or not running Pox. Reids deck was definitely "all over the place" and he admitted so. Kudos for him trying (& succeeding some) at a larger tournament but with or without him doing so, Pox is in an awesome position after the printing of Liliana.
Yes, Smallpox and Pox are completely different. In a "Pox" deck, you are trying to get max value/destruction out of a 3cc card. This goal/intent changes the deck drastically which is talked about all throughtout this thread.
Yes, Liliana impacts things but from a Pox/Smallpox standpoint, it's almost identical. The only issue I've run across is do I turn 1 Ritual/Liliana or Ritual/Pox on the play/draw. In the past, Pox was always the right play even over Hymn and the like.
I'm telling everyone, agro decks are a cake-walk right now for Pox/Hand-destruction builds... mostly thanks to Liliana. We can "out-attrition" them and smash face faster with things like "the Rack" and Bloodghast. I definitely felt the favorite against Zoo and Goblins when I smashed them in the 10-person tourny I won. Playtesting was the same way... Stone-forge Mystic decks are cakewalk! The hardest agro build is Affinity on the play if they are able to dump 3-5 creatures.
Everyone breathe, take a step back and soak in the vast wealth in this thread... that was the original intent of my last post.
The Rack is actually not too bad with Raven's Crime. or Liliana, which ever you have/can afford.
im going to a tourney tonight, should be 17-20 people.
I am going to try and run Lili
But the discussion on Pox v. Small Pox, it depends on what you want to do. My main creature control is Ensnaring Bridge. most decks do not run a terrible amount of artifact removal, and I have enough hand removal to deal with it. I have actually only had a few Bridges ever destroyed on me.
so when I use Pox, I use it for the life loss.
No one is stupid, or being a troll,
and as a matter of fact, the only two people in this forum who have attacked anyone, are the people who for no reason tell everyone how bad Bump is, and how dumb we are for playing it.....
I don't even run Small Pox, I don't need it. have never cast it, and felt good about it. I understand everyone's opinion on the card, and that's fine. I get the point, for me, it doesn't work. the same reason I can run 17 lands, thus letting me run 3-6 more utility cards than most, because I never have mana problems.
If you ritual into a turn 1 pox on the playQuote:
Originally Posted by ActionJunkie
Your opponent discards 3 cards (or 2 if they mulliganed)
Assuming that you didn't mulligan, you lose:
The pox
The dark ritual
The land
2 Cards from your hand
So the opponent has 4 cards in hand
You have 2
...Well done?
Experience is not really relevant in the discussion. Any argument needs to be backed up with convincing logic and not just "do it like that because that's how it has worked in the past". Even if you are correct you aren't going to convince anybody.
Thank you for proving my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
In reality this would never happen which is why so many of you seem to have NO experience playtesting the deck. Why would you Pox before they drop a creature or on the play? Unless you know the matchup and/or are holding Rack and more discards, this is a silly play. Getting "value" from Pox and Smallpox while quickly into top-deck is the goal of traditional "Pox." From there, its personal preference, land OR hand... tombstalker, rack, bloodghast, netherspirit, etc. My issue (FOR THOSE who are actually trying and not flaming) is the complex decision trees vs. the current meta when you have the option of Liliana vs. Pox - obviously if you are on the play, you are probably choosing Liliana where on the draw is completely different.
It's very frustrating to sift through the mess lately and find quality stuff whereas the first ~90 pages was full of "teamwork." Liliana makes things very exciting for Pox so it would be nice to see people actually trying things before posting or at least keeping an open mind.
YES.Quote:
The Rack is actually not too bad with Raven's Crime. or Liliana, which ever you have/can afford.
im going to a tourney tonight, should be 17-20 people.
I am going to try and run Lili
But the discussion on Pox v. Small Pox, it depends on what you want to do. My main creature control is Ensnaring Bridge. most decks do not run a terrible amount of artifact removal, and I have enough hand removal to deal with it. I have actually only had a few Bridges ever destroyed on me.
so when I use Pox, I use it for the life loss.
No one is stupid, or being a troll,
and as a matter of fact, the only two people in this forum who have attacked anyone, are the people who for no reason tell everyone how bad Bump is, and how dumb we are for playing it.....
I don't even run Small Pox, I don't need it. have never cast it, and felt good about it. I understand everyone's opinion on the card, and that's fine. I get the point, for me, it doesn't work. the same reason I can run 17 lands, thus letting me run 3-6 more utility cards than most, because I never have mana problems.
There is a ton of directions you can take with "Pox." All of which involve complex decision trees when using cards like Pox and Smallpox which is why this thread SHOULD be useful. My post was about "hardcore" Pox but as quoted above there are nifty builds you can do with Pox, Smallpox, Land Destruction, and Liliana. To each their own, but of course include some kind of "Pox" here ;).
I played pox this year as my mono black "pet"deck and improved it to beat the current meta.
// Deck: :b: Pox new (60) :b:
// Lands
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
14 Swamp
1 Tomb of Urami
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Creatures
4 Bloodghast
// Spells
3 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
4 The Rack
// Sideboard
3 Deathmark
3 Engineered Plague
1 Extirpate
2 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
I cut Pox, because Liliana is much stronger and controled. My version has focus on discard and creature beat down, Bitterblossom is a defensive choice and without pox you can compensate the life loss. Bitterblossom also "negates" graveyard hate, which hurts against most pox decks.
Recurring Pack: Bloodghast (Beater), Ravens Crime (Discard), Dakmore Salvage (Land - Bloodghast), Darkblast (kills most utility creatures in legacy).
I played a lot with two tombstalkers, but today the meta is full with removal and a 5/5 Flyer who needs our graveyard is no more a safe win strategy. I try 2 Sensei's Divining Top to manipulate the top decks after i blast out fast hands (if i can get a ritual).
Sideboard:
Deathmark, cheap removal for maverick decks, because we tend to play mid-late game and each single beater will kill us fast.
Engineered Plague, i face goblins very often, so itīs an autoinclude
Extirpate, i only own one, but faerie macabre can compensate uncounterable graveyard hate
Null Rod, affinity and mostly combo hate, stick it and keep discarding theire hands
Pithing Needle, against walkers, combo, etc.
I see a lot of good lists out there... a lot of good different directions you ca go with this build, I really am just curious of seeing some tournament reports, however small or large. ActionJunkie was cool for sharing his 1st in a tournament, we should be more supportive asking about some of his good/bad plays and thoughts, and that should go for anyone. Even if you just f'up and go 1-3, it helps everyone know the matchups and thoughts.
I think everyone should take their deck to the next tourney and give some feedback. I'ma try to throw a concept I'm working on and see how it goes, I'll report it even if its fail to let you know how it worked. Thanks
If I'm being 100% completely honest, I feel like this thread has hit a wall and will only stunt my Pox progression if I continue to actively partake in it.
I am not going to make any hyperbolic statements about the deterioration of The Source posters or anything like that, I'll just say that theory crafting runs rampant on the internet and there are a lot of ideas being trotted out that are legitimately just bad. In those sub-par recommendations comes debate and discussion, in which sometimes valuable or helpful information falls through the cracks because people would rather argue over unplayable junk, usually solely due to the fact that anonymity is present so they don't have to actually take any accountability for what they type.
I am trying to win.
From my estimation, I will garner a lot more results from just communicating and play-testing with my circle of local, decent players. In which, when an idea is presented, it must be accepted as a worthwhile time investment by a majority, instead of one individual trying to convince an entire room the merits and validity of any one card or idea, which in the internet era, has some how by-passed and been overlooked by the entire Magic: The Gathering player base, including professionals.
For lists running Bloodghast, I have liked also including a mix of Stinkweed Imp and Necroplasm. Both can function as recurring blockers and pseudo-removal. They are safe to discard at any point. Dredging them back helps to get 'Ghasts in the 'yard.
I'm hoping you don't really feel that way, I guess I'll try to see what you were trying to contrue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S.
I agree, I love running Nether Void & Abyss in Commander, I love nostalgia, but I'm not a fan of having 4-mana locks in Pox. I'd almost rather run 3sphere if I was running Wastes & Sinkhole.
This I don't understand either, since Pox is generally a deck about consistency unless running Tutors, why ppl hide "special tactic" cards in their deck doesn't register with me.Quote:
The singleton copy of Pox makes it so you hardly ever even see it.
Can Pox afford to run this card, with all the symmetrical card disadvantage, mox/rituals though? Wouldn't you rather just stick with E.Plague, which is just a deal breaker vs a tempo killer.Quote:
* Contagion - I like it against Goblins and Merfolk. I certainly like it more than Spinning Darkness.
I would SB Contamination against Lands. running with 2 Nether Spirit is risky, 'cause Contamination is plain worthless on its own if your Spirit gets stp/pathed or you simply don't draw into it, its a dead card in your hand till then. Bitterblossom is usually better.Quote:
Nether Spirit almost makes me want to play Contamination Sideboard but I guess Nether Void is better there since quite a few decks do stuff with black. Even still, I'll probably end up creatureless.
Ritual is still debatable with me. I'd say this depends more on the deck. Your tradeoff is hoping to disrupt them and set them back earlier, but playing more CA means you run outta steam first.Quote:
* I will champion Dark Ritual - Tempo still matters in Magic, especially in Legacy. With the banning of Mental Misstep, worst case scenario is they Force of Will whatever you try to speed out. That's almost like them just getting hit with a Hymn to Tourach, so I'm OK with that. Yes, drawing them late is bad, but so is drawing a lot of things late, like land or, my favorite, multiple copies of Lilliana when they Pithing Needle her. :cry:
Since Pox plays a lot of card disadvantage, it either needs to end the game soon, using it to power out a Tombstalker or something, which is risky like you mentioned. Or it needs to benefit from the discard like Loam, Ghast/Spirit, The Rack, Scroll. I'm not gonna say Stalker sucks, 'cause I've used it and won quite a few games with him, but he is a creature and when he dies you're screwed.
I'm not gonna cover everything, but I do like Sinkhole because it simply wins games against many decks that have a weak start. It also allows you to get more miles out of your discard, when your opponent can't get cards out of his hand.
For anti-aggro, one card I'm going to try playtesting is Porphyry Nodes. Since I'm running 3 E. Tutors at the moment, the card is a tempo hoser against fast aggro. I've had a lot of experience over the years running 3 Drop of Honey, and I've been really happy with its performance in my GW deck so I'm expecting it to be good.
How have you liked Necroplasm? I remember it was working well for some players a few years ago, I think it was Mujadaddy but I can't remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
I used to run Necroplasm and Plague Spitter back in the day when Goblins and Threshold were big. It's very weak card however; and while it worked it was mostly on the back of Ritual-Hymn-Sinkhole. This was also prior to Smallpox being printed.
I also used to run The Rack, but that became marginal as well with the printing of Jace TMS. Liliana certainly warrants a fresh look at The Rack again.
Pox (as an archetype, rather than the card) should be tailored to the metagame at hand. Bringing a list with Spinning Darkness vs a combo metagame is very bad; likewise with Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg. Furthermore, in metagames with less creatures and more spells (like Tempo), running Duress or Thoughtseize isn't a bad call either.
My current list (and by no means do I guarantee that this is actually competitive, just something I keep around to test with others):
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Nether Spirit
3 Tombstalker
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
SB:
3 Extirpate
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Perish
3 Spinning Darkness
4 Pithing Needle
1 Duress