They splash blue for daze and for a faerie, that says: when it comes into play tap or untap target creature. they play it with kiki-jiki and go inf. tokens.
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They splash blue for daze and for a faerie, that says: when it comes into play tap or untap target creature. they play it with kiki-jiki and go inf. tokens.
I better play some more stable combo, like food chain and/or Lightning Crafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by gieli0
Like any other non-goblin spells, blue would weaken the tribal nature of the deck, decreasing the 'aggro' feel and nut lackey openings, as well as ringleader flips, matron toolbox, ect. Daze might as well be REB/Vexing shusher, as both are probably serving the same roll, to ensure your important goblins resolve, and both slow down your tempo, the blast/shusher ensuring you leave R open before playing your important spells, and daze making you miss a land drop each time you use it to resolve one, making your ringleaders/SGCs come down a turn later. Adding daze will do MUCH less to improve the combo MU than adding a set of earwig squads, so if that is your goal, just play black with 3-4 squads main. You will not have enough blue slots to properly use FoW, so the main point of running blue is allready out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik
If you have problems with control, play shusher/REB.
If you have problems with combo, play earwig squad.
Until they print a RU goblin with an ability to rival driver/SGC, I doubt a blue splash will be viable.
Basically, the way to go with blue-based Goblins is to eschew Ringleader and focus on Lackey/Vial explosive starts (with SGCs, Matrons and Piles to actually make 'em matter). That makes the deck much more frightening in the early turns, but gives up the Ringleader's ability to rebuild in the midgame. So you make the deck more focused on the early game and more able to punish opponent's poor draws (along with some "I just win"-draws of your own), but in turn you make the deck less powerful in the midgame and have lower chances of coming back from behind.
You do improve the land disruption suite with Stifle though; Stifle+Waste+Rishadan Port is brutal almost to a Team Americanish degree, so it could definitely be a potent way to go given a proper metagame. But the tradeoff of losing Ringleader means that the tribal synergies of the deck are much weaker. Still, you will be grinning when you go turn 1 Lackey with Daze & Force backup. The biggest question is really the 4th blue card; you'll run Daze, Force and Stifle because those make the splash worth it, but whether the 4th slot needed to support Force should be Brainstorm, Standstill, a variety of RU Goblins or something else entirely is a question not answered.
Like I said before with Ru goblins, you can have the (somewhat) best of both worlds. Just splash blue for stifle to make your mana denial package stronger, and forget the FoW stuff, that's not goblins. But JUST splashing for stifle and playing it normally otherwise deserves a look. You could open up some sideboard options to, maybe something like submerge vs. goyf.
LD: play goblin settlerQuote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
Goyf: play relic/weirding
why move into weaker colors and lower our goblin (and threat) count to play situational cards that have equals IN COLOR?
QFTQuote:
Originally Posted by Media314r8
1) Goblin Settler? Is this some sort of joke, Settler being equal to Stifle? Stifle is about 10 billion times better than goblin settler...playing 4 stifle and 4 vial as the only nongoblins in the deck is really not that strange, considering many goblin decks play 8 nongoblins. Plus, stifle out of goblins will surprise your opponent.
2) With Submerge, fine: that card is bad here. Still, if things are really getting terrible in your meta it does get around CB, unlike weirding.
Now, I'm not advocating Ru goblins, but I'm saying playing 4 stifles alone is not a terrible idea. It would be Ru goblins that basically plays like monored goblins, only 4 stifles make the port/wasteland/stifle combination deadly to a lot of decks.
I think the Ru goblins discussion should just be dropped at this point because it is pointless.
omg u/r goblins??? not even funny ....
drop the discussion of blue and lets get things moving again
To do any of that 99% of the time you will need a fectch land to get your blue source and it WILL get stiffled BLUE is DEF NOT THE ANSWER why would anyone cut goblins to make room for weaker cards in a goblin deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
And it def not "worth " the splash you wanna make room for 12-16 unneeded blue cards? how many goblins did you plan on running 4-8?
the whole idea behind goblins is to out number and out speed your opps and win not sit with a lackey and a hand full of blue garbage wishing you had a goblin to lackey trigger in.. get away from the blue idea ..if you wanna play blue then you need to switch tribes and play merfolks ..
A DISCUSSION ON MOGG FANATIC
People have been saying Mogg Fanatic should be removed, and I agree with that, as I'll explain below. That leaves 4 slots open that need to be filled. How should we approach that filling? I'll also discuss that below. Here is a list of relevant creatures that mogg fanatic straight up kills by himself (based off the DtB and Established forums):
DARK CONFIDANT, GOBLIN LACKEY, BIRDS OF PARADISE, CURSECATCHER, Silvergill Adept, Mogg Fanatic, Disciple of the Vault, Arcbound Ravager, Arcbound Worker, Scion of Oona, Ichorid, Nantuko Shade, Winged Sliver, Cloud of Faeries, Mother of Runes, Putrid Imp, Oona's Prowler, Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Goblin Welder, Quirion Dryad, Wirewood Symbiote, Basking Rootwalla, Grim Lavamancer.
Now that seems like an extensive list, but only 3 or so will be relevant (according to what is in the DtB forum) along with a few of the others based on the local metagame. We must not forget, however, that mogg fanatic can mess up blocking situations and acts like a 2/1 in most situations. He easily trades with many of the x/2's in the format. Yet, mogg fanatic doesn't really present any synergy with the deck's core (ringleader, warchief, lackey). He doesn't improve the core and doesn't really do much of anything but be a decent aggro threat. He also doesn't really help that much in the worst matchups (from my experiences, red aggro control and combo). And in today's environment, with bad goblins matchups running rampant, being a decent aggro threat does not cut it. There are other cards that are begging for maindeck inclusion, but mogg fanatic is taking up the slot.
You obviously want to include a goblin. From testing going above 8 preboard nongoblins is comical, and even going that high is just too dangerous for me as far as ringleader goes. So I want to keep preboard goblins at 4 vials, if possible.
In addition, we want a card that fits well on the curve, something I think goblin players need to address. It's hard to call goblins an aggro deck with such an inefficient curve based on 3cc. Why is Gempalm Incinerator getting worse and worse? Because goblin decks continue to neglect their mana curves to make it worse because there will be less permanents in play (obviously). So with that, I want both a goblin AND one that is 2cc at most, preferably 1cc.
Now, I'm not going to share right away the card I think is worthy of at least 3 of the maindeck slots, because then you will disagree with me immediately. But I will tell you that there is a card that can do many of the things mogg fanatic does: it is a goblin that is 1cc, it deals with ichorid decks, and messes up combat math very similarly to mogg fanatic. He loses the versatiliy of shooting the x/1's in the format, but if you look at the list above, only a few will be relevant, depending on the metagame. Also, by himself he isn't quite as powerful as mogg fanatic. But, there is more that this little 1cc goblin can do: he helps against math-based removal (such as lightning bolt) but more importantly, he can effectively fight pyroclasm and its descedants. In effect, instead of helping matchups goblins should already be winning as mogg fanatic does, he helps against one of goblins' bad matchups (decks packing pyroclasm or an equivalent in their 75 cards).
Intrigued? The card is goblin sledder, a humble and seemingly outdated creature that I'm sure many of you are already familiar with.
Now, you can tell me that goblin sledder is terrible and all of that, but then you also better be saying mogg fanatic is terrible and all of that, because goblin sledder can do almost everything mogg fanatic can do, AND he makes what would be a crushing pyroclasm into just losing 1 or maybe 2 goblins. When I see people's sideboards against goblins and other aggro decks, they are getting smaller, and for good reason. Obviously aggro control dominates the format, the only aggro deck having success right now is merfolk, and even that is questionably aggro. So many decks just pack some pyroclasm in the sb and call it an easy postboard matchup versus goblins.
That won't be the case with goblin sledder. Through testing him out, I can tell you that he messes up so many situations that he should at least be considered for inclusion. Let's face it people, goblins is just not good anymore, even with warren weirding...a goblin player is going to have to be a little more creative to win in today's metagame, whether that be something like maindeck relics, or goblin sledder. That is why I am advocating goblin sledder in metagames that see a decent amount of goblins, aggro loam, and UGr thresh. Goblin sledder will also be successful in metagames with lots of sideboard red boardsweepers: GP Chicago, anyone?
Thank you for reading this post. Please do not just pass off Goblin Sledder because of my low post count.
its terrible. and all of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
how about, no. it doesnt do anything mogg fanatic does, except attack. the two cards play completely different roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
you said it yourself:
DARK CONFIDANT, GOBLIN LACKEY, BIRDS OF PARADISE, CURSECATCHER, Silvergill Adept, Mogg Fanatic, Disciple of the Vault, Arcbound Ravager, Arcbound Worker, Scion of Oona, Ichorid, Nantuko Shade, Winged Sliver, Cloud of Faeries, Mother of Runes, Putrid Imp, Oona's Prowler, Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Goblin Welder, Quirion Dryad, Wirewood Symbiote, Basking Rootwalla, Grim Lavamancer.
goblin sledder does nothing to stop any of those. all it does is prevent a goblin or two, if that, from a mass sweeper like pyroclasm.
thats some pretty bad math.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
if at minimum you have a lackey, a sledder and a matron ? both the sledder and matron die to protect the lackey. thats 2 goblins.
if you have lackey, siege-gang, 3 tokens and a sledder, the 3 tokens die to pump the lackey and siege-gang and the sledder still dies as it cant protect itself. so you lose 4 and keep 2.
like which ? swords ? nope. bolt ? at the cost of 3 other goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
I've beaten UGr thresh, without relics with RB goblins. at no point would I rather have had goblin sledder over fanatic.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
no, but I will because it sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
fanatic is much better than sledder.
Personally, I think this deck does well to have 4x StP in the main.
Every couple of pages we have the same discussions. Drop Mogg Fanatic? No thanks, I'll keep my pingers and drop them for surprise damage on a stupid tarmogoyf, turn them into lightning bolts with my sharpshooter and so on. Play goblin sledder? He's simply not good enough, setting yourself up for 1000-for-1's sounds pretty silly to me.
But really, these things have been suggested time and again, and every time someone thinks he's found the holy grail of goblin tech and each and every time he gets disproven, just stop suggesting it already.
All valid points HOWEVER Goblin Sledder doesn't do anything more than mogg fanatic did especially against combo we dont have problems swarming around goyf and the bunch.
We have main deck answers (some do) to tomb stalker/dreadnought, also as far as only 4 non goblin cards depending on you build 4-7 is still good a lot of the times in games 2-3 your running fewer goblins anyway im down to 2 mogg as it is and Im starting to lean toward skirk prospector as the replacement to mogg fanatic the reason being its very good against combo with a mana sac you have an out to ANT /other combo main deck.
98% of ANT players will stop @ 5life this gives you a chance to use prospector tricks/sharpshooter/siege- gang to in response to their next spell to take them down the rest of the way.:wink:
against other decks prospector give that little boost of speed:cool:
But I'm still not sold on cutting him as the prev poster suggested mogg is still useful
They both mess up combat math. Fanatic pings guys, and sledder makes it easier to recover from red board sweepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
It also messes up combat math and stops ichorid in a similar manner to mogg fanatic. Let's not forget that point. All those get killed by mogg fanatic, but most decks that play x/1's goblins has a good matchup against anyway. I'm looking to improve the bad matchups while minimizing the percentage lost in good matchups because of that. Mogg fanatic is great in the great matchups, not so hot in bad matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
And yet, that is better than anything fanatic would do in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
By "sitautions" I meant combat situations. To save a warchief only costs 2 goblins, sledder + another. You don't have to keep the sledder around. And the goal with sledder is really to keep warchief alive, above all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
Well then I guess you are just awesome. But it doesn't matter whether you have beaten it, it matters if your odds are better with goblin sledder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
I knew it would have some haters, and that's fine. What I'm trying to point out with goblin sledder is that it improves bad matchups. Mogg Fanatic improves good matchups. In a metagame as wide as GP Chicago, I want to make my matchups as even as possible. That's the point I'm trying to get across with sledder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
Some cards are more essential than others in goblins, as you know. Lackey late game isn't really going to do much of anything. But with sledder in play, he could be a savior for that crucial warchief or piledriver. Also, playing sledder doesn't force overextension, sure there may be card disadvantage involved, but I'd rather have card disadvantage and a warchief on the table than keeping my precious card advantage with nothing on the table. I don't think I've found the holy grail of goblin tech, I just think goblin sledder would be a good choice for GP Chicago. Bringing the same old list to GP Chicago is going to fail, because of two reasons, 1) goblins is not that good anymore, 2) people will be planning their sideboards based on plain ol' goblins, which means clasm + plague. Sledder is a decent answer to clasm, better than nothing, which is what goblins currently does against clasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
I'd have to say that Mogg Fanatic is overall a better card in the current format than Goblin Sledder. Goblins should probably play 4 fanatics MD (or three at the very least). As was noted, it is great against many x/1 creatures. Fanatic is very strong against the following decks: Aggro Loam, Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Ichorid, Rock, Survival Advantage, Fish, Merfolk, Slivers, and Elves just to name a few. Good luck playing a Legacy tourney and not seeing any of these decks.
I do admit that sledder can be better against some decks. Threshold comes to mind, as fanatic has trouble finding creatures to target. Sledder can help pump a 2/2 goblin to get an annoying Mongose off the board or to save some of your guys from a fire/ice or pyroclasm. On the other hand, fanatic is much more useful against Thresh if you are running Relic.
I just don't see enough decks that sledder is better against that would make me want to run him.
I'm not going on debating Sledder vs Fanatic, cause this come up every month or two and it's getting annoying.
I'm with you, by the way, that goblin is not the deck that used to be and this is for a number of particular reasons:
- Printing of Goyf, Tombstalker, unerrata of Dreadnough: the decks and the metagame evolved, favoring a small number of huge beaters, and in general aggro-control or tempo strategies.
- Control in the form of landstill has basically the same strategy going on against us. We lost Rishadan port against them, that helped preventing turn 4 Humility/Wrath.
- Combo arise with the printing of AN.
- Goblin didn't gain much from last few cycles aside from Warren Weirding and Stingscourger.
The deck has to basically adapt to the new metagame if it can, or simply start being a tier 2.
Here is what have to be done to adapt:
1) Have a way to deal with those huge beaters
2) Have more than beat down as strategy against control decks
3) Just lose the combo mathup as always, but have a positive matchup against control and aggrocontrol.
Here are the possible answers IMO:
1) Obviously both Mogg Fanatic and Gempalms are being less and less effective, so are likely the cards that we have to discuss in favor of:
- Relic of Progenitus: Almost kills Goyf, and slows Tombstalker like noone. It also mess with the opponent's strategy if he's using the graveyard (like too many decks do)
- Warren Weirding: it's a good choice if you predict there will be little stifle (and tempo strategies) and the mirror.
- Stingscourger: Highly effective against tombstalker and dreadnought, a tempo card against Goyf, allowing also for a blocker for a turn (or monouse attack with warchief in play). Can also be vialed in for uncounterability (it matters against dreadnought)
- Mogg War Marshal: it's a 3 turn chumpblock against goyf, increases the power of Gempalm and Piledriver. Does nothing against Nought and TS.
- Goblin tinkerer/TSH: if you expect more Dreadnoughts than anyhing else.
- Other non-goblin creature removal, like Terminate, STP, Spitebellows, Snuff Out...
2) Keep your mana denial in he form of all the Rishadan Ports your deck can support, even if it's 1. Don't lose consistency, so play the little number of fetches/duals your deck have to play. Or play bombs against them, like Krosan Grip, Price of Progress, Sulfuric vortex, etc.
3) Don't dedicate SB spaces at the combo matchup unless you already have ALL your other matchups covered with the best cards for each matchup. So, basically, forget about combo, cause you'll never win 2 out of 3.
You see, the problem I have with the whole fanatic + relic combo is that fanatic is one of the better candidates for siding out (along with incinerator) against many decks packing tarmogoyf, because he has few targets to target. If you aren't siding out fanatic against, thresh, for instance, what are you siding out?
I agree that goblins needs to adapt, and I think STINGSCOURGER is going to be an important card, since most of the top decks now just play a threat or maybe two at a time. Dreadnought and Tombstalker are rising in popularity, and he is a decent card against tarmogoyf as well. A couple stingscourgers coupled with a few warren weirdings I think gives this deck a strong matchup against the aggro control decks, the problem is CB.
About CB, I'm currently running the black splash and I'm just curious what you all think: can goblins live through counterbalance? Is Rb just unplayable because goblins NEEDS krosan grip against counterbalance, and is counterbalance really that important? I've seen some talk about counterbalance in the thread but not that extensive of talk.
I think Rb is playable, because you can't rely on x4 or x3 krosan grip to save you against counterbalance. Through testing, it has come up to me that sometimes CB really shuts you down but it isn't as common as it is against decks with tighter curves than goblins. But there is a point that nickrit brought up a long time ago that goblins is starting to rely on warren weirding against thresh, and obviously CB stops that pretty well. So I'm just curious what everybody thinks.
Counterbalance hardly impacts Goblins. Between the fact that most of your important cards cost 3-5, the fact that you have 8 1-drops that ignore Counterbalance and the fact that Goblin Tinkerer can keep forcing Top on top of the library, the fact that Gempalm ignores it, the fact that Port and Waste can limit their mana for you to resolve stuf, the fact that you don't give aggro/control decks much time to filter and setup the board and the fact that they're spending ~3 mana to do nothing while resolving Countertop you shouldn't be overly concerned.
The real question is whether you can deal with Plagues or not.