[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by dataspot

Ralf,

I've always liked Accumulated Knowledge in Solidarity. It cantrips early when you're looking for lands and keeps the combo going later on, drawing lots of cards. It's not as good as Meditate at being flashed back with Mission Briefing or Snapcaster Mage, but it still seems solid and costs 1 less. Impulse is better when you're looking for specific cards but AK is better when you want to get multiple cards.

I just don't know where you would fit it in the deck, since you want to have all 4.

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AK is a very fine card in a vacuum but as you said the pb lies within "how to fit it in".

There are two very distinct periods in any Solidarity games:

1) the first period is sculpting your hand and making land drops
2) the second one is the combo turn

- During phase 1 (which can be long or short), Impulse seems to be better (not saying "is" better because it's my point of view) at finding what you need; be it lands or combo pieces. The more that setup phase lasts the less impulse is better than AK in a vacuum, ofc.

- During phase 2 (the combo turn), Meditate seems to be better (blablaba) at empowering your combo wheels. My rational would definitely check the mana spent per card drawn. Meditate wins hand down easily, not to mention the need of finding multiple AK just to match Meditate's effect.


To conclude, I would say that to make AK good enough for Solidarity, I feel you need to wrap your deck around it (intuition for example) and that is not a path I would take.

But, as usual, this is only from a theorical point of view and only tests will tell whether I am right or wrong.

Ralf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dataspot

Ralf,

I've always liked Accumulated Knowledge in Solidarity. It cantrips early when you're looking for lands and keeps the combo going later on, drawing lots of cards. It's not as good as Meditate at being flashed back with Mission Briefing or Snapcaster Mage, but it still seems solid and costs 1 less. Impulse is better when you're looking for specific cards but AK is better when you want to get multiple cards.

I just don't know where you would fit it in the deck, since you want to have all 4.

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Accumulated knowledge could be good, but i think for draw power, i'd rather have meditate. It requires less setup, and is a known quantity (as in i'll always draw 4, instead of possibly 2-3). I had one test version that did 4 thought scour and 4 accumulated knowledge with flash of insight. It was, i think quite a lot of work actually combo-ing out, as stacking the deck requires not just counting mana, but counting how deep each AK/thought scour draws into the next mana, wish, draw. You can cobble together AK+TS as a 3 mana (2 card) dig 2 and draw 3+ cards (and milling 2 unnecessary lands/an AK) with flash of insight, so that's pretty cool. But i think for the sake of my sanity, it was way too much work for not enough payoff (as in i needed to storm up to like 6+, mill myself about 20+ cards, then flash FoI to stack my deck perfectly, then continue, hopefully having milled, and not exiled my AKs just to get myself up to enough storm to BF my opponent).
Also, if this is your way forward, you might wanna look at visions of beyond. I hear that ancestral recall is pretty good. That being said, it is probably a trap. for me, it's a win-more almost every time it's been relevant (i.e. if i have that many cards in my graveyard, i've already won... unless if I'm playing the mirror), and completely irrelevant (worse than even peek and opt) before you get there.

Three wishes, on the other hand, is a card i'm now experimenting with. 3 mana 'draw' 3:
1. allows me to have more 'pure-draw-spells' in the 75 (everything else in the deck is just card selection, not draw, which can be problematic in tempo games)
2. doesn't 'draw' (gets around leovold, notion thief, whatever that 2-drop in DnT is called)
3. says 'play cards'; so lands are still playable
4. doesn't skip my next turn (relevant especially against some aggro/counter-tempo/fast stompy decks)
5. against players who haven't seen this yet, it's great watching them 'play around' it, and essentially giving me a time walk.

Basically, i'm working out the cost-benefit of meditate/three wishes + 4 flusterstorm in the 75 instead of my current meditate only + 2 FS + 3 disrupt. Currently testing 3 meditate/2 three wishes, 3 FS, 4FoW main, 1/1 and 1 FS on the side.
In testing, disrupt has been great against counter-aggro decks, since it draws me back 1 card (so they drain their hand, mine's still pretty intact). Problem is that i can't disrupt dudes (sometimes, a delver/ just needs to go), and it's VERY limited to early-game. also, not being able to afford a skipped turn (untap and land-drop) is kinda bad against aggro decks. Being able to field 3 flusterstorm main has been quite good. it hits more things, and the best is that it's still active under a chalice. I've also seen a few builds that use spell pierce, but considering how easy it is for us to build a gigantic stack just for fun, i think flusterstorm is simply better.
Against non-aggro/quick decks, being able to FS random cards here and there is brilliant (sometimes, i gotta impulse/wish just to pump storm a bit). each one especially early game is like a time walk, especially if I'm keeping their clock on near-0.
Three wishes makes me have to re-assess how i play though, which isn't very good, and it does draw me 1 less than meditate which IS relevant. So the question i've been wrangling with is whether or not its use pre-combo is better than the cost mid-combo.

Another extremely 'cute' card tech is dominate (x1uu instant, gain control of target creature with cmc x or less). Ever face-down dark depths/lands that had a quick marit lage? Or hell even a scarily big endless one? it's quite good, actually. you don't even need to properly 'go off' - wish dominate a death's shadow, or even a goyf just to delay the game (or swing back for the win). I'm not sure if it's actually effective enough/does enough against problematic matchups though. That way, you can even 'store' them in your graveyard just to go off again with mission briefing/SCM.

Anyways, recent tests says that jace brainstorm is the best way to kill JTMS decks. gives that smug PW something to really think about.

So in the last local I went to, went 0-4, 1-2 against miracles (I think the guy luck-drew like 3-4 pyroblast every game), 1-2 stoneblade, 1-2 deaths shadow, 0-2 goblins.

Sideboard needs some serious reworking. It always felt like I tried to go off one turn too late. Growth spiral has been good to great. I felt like my build is too greedy though. I think I need my opts back; if I had more 1mana cantrips, it’d let me go off+dig without running out of mana early on.

I’m not sure I’d snap/snapcaster has been better than mission briefing. Being able to force pitch from the graveyard from mission hadn’t been relevant a single time.

I think siding out 1 high tide isn’t right. In combo, I think the correct thing to do is to always be the one doing stuff, not having to constantly try to play around stuff. And leaving only 3 copies of a critical combo piece seems weird. That being said, I’m not even sure any opponent of mine had surgical - so maybe that’s something to consider.

I’m not sure if my disruption suite is good enough. 4 force, 2 fluster. Going forward, I’m thinking of going 1/3 mission/snapcaster, and finding space for 1-3 memory lapse/remand. Bouncing a spell is great, time-walking them is possibly even better. Saving a high tide or critical piece mid combo is a slight sweetener.

My side was the following:
2 surgical
1 three wishes
1 snap
1 growth spiral
1 brain freeze
2 flusterstorm
1 unsubstantiate
1 blue sun zenith
1 dominate (a for funsies, off-chance nick a marit lage that I should take out)
1 evacuate
2 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap

Aside from the dominate, I’m not sure where to go with the side. More disruption seems good.

I’ve also been considering going for the “no change”, but pretend that I’m putting in like 8+ cards. Not sure how to make the deck go off faster more consistently to make that more possible.



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Could you share your whole list?

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Could you share your whole list?

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Sure;
4 high tide
4 reset
4 meditate
4 impulse
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 snapcaster mage
3 mission briefing
3 growth spiral
3 cunning wish
2 snap
1 brain freeze

2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn
2 breeding pool
12 snow-covered island

Side:
2 surgical
1 three wishes
1 snap
1 growth spiral
1 brain freeze
2 flusterstorm
1 unsubstantiate
1 blue sun zenith
1 dominate
1 evacuate
2 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap

That’s about right, I think. I’m thinking that going forwards, I should be going for more disruption, less flash-backing, and more lower cmc-digging (opts/peeks).


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

Sure;
4 high tide
4 reset
4 meditate
4 impulse
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 snapcaster mage
3 mission briefing
3 growth spiral
3 cunning wish
2 snap
1 brain freeze

2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn
2 breeding pool
12 snow-covered island

Side:
2 surgical
1 three wishes
1 snap
1 growth spiral
1 brain freeze
2 flusterstorm
1 unsubstantiate
1 blue sun zenith
1 dominate
1 evacuate
2 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap

That’s about right, I think. I’m thinking that going forwards, I should be going for more disruption, less flash-backing, and more lower cmc-digging (opts/peeks).


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Did you identify why you lost ?
Each time you ended up like 1-2 (except gobelin) was it close ?

I believe you need to play 3 Tropical/Breeding pool to sustain 3 growth as, during my test, having access to 12 green was relevant instead of 11 (9 fetches included) because too many times, I ended up with Growth in hand without access to green mana (when I was testing with only 2 trop).
Also you need 3+ flusterstorm between main and side. You can't expect to win a counterwar post side against blue decks without those.

Finally, one reason to add green to the deck is to play Hunting pack. This card is real as you can catch many blue decks post side who have cut all their removal (and it is very good against aggro decks in a vacuum).
It also emphasis why you don't need a kill condition MD:
1) You don't know what you are playing against so you don't know what is going to be your kill condition and amongst the hundred games I have with the green splash, 75 % (if not more) I'm going for the HP kill. It might be because I'm glad to smash face with it but still.
2) Drawing/having BF in hand is 90 % bad as it doesn't help you in the "setup" phase at all. It is a dead card until you go for the kill.

Anyway, I have OK results (kitchen table games but versus tiers 1 nonetheless) with the list provided a few pages ago and my play skills are definitely not the best.

You could also tune your sideboard to your meta. If you don't face Rea/dredge, cutting surgical/ravenous trap could greatly improve the other MUs.
There are a few options that might help you/us beat permission decks:

- Carpet of flowers
- Xantid Swarm
- Hope of Ghirapur

Those cards force you to play a spiral tide kind of game but packing 2+ turnabout should definitely do the trick with 4 of these (I would pick up xantid to be honest at first but maybe carpet is strong also).
Many blue decks will be caught off guard post side and you only need to win twice :p

My two cents,

Ralf

In identifying why I lost:
Miracles - games 2 and 3, I don’t know how, but he had at least 3 pyroblasts one of those games, so I couldn’t even high tide (PB), high tide (PB), reset (FoW, force back, then he PB over that), then I fall flat. Can’t remember the other game, but he had like infinite counters, and couldn’t bait them all out fast enough. My assessment is that I should just go off on the turn he dropped the mentor, when he tapped out a bit more, giving me more space to go off.

Stoneblade, he had PBs all over, but also a much faster clock. Didnt play daze, but he did have 3-4 spell snares and 4 spell pierces in addition to 4 forces and PB. Like seriously, felt like the guys deck was built to kill blue. Game one was easy enough, but I think he thought I was miracles digging for back to basics since I basically only showed islands.

RB death shadow. This one was a bit of a rogue deck though; not sure how many decks run fireblasts and price of progress (he PoP himself for 6, when I only had 3 island). Games 2 and 3 he dropped multiple eidolon of the revel which I had to cunning wish for a evacuation against, while getting beat by 6/6s. Didn’t have enough SCM to emergency block with, and he didn’t run those eidolons in for me to ambush. Game 3, I experimented with trying to just go off faster, but who’d have thought turn 1 eidolon off a simian spirit guide follows by turn 2 eidolon into turn 3 eidolon would be a thing? I countered one, but the 2nd and third was just nutty. I think in this game, I should have been able to win. I think the misplay was thinking that 1 force was good enough. I think it’s probably worth having more maindeck disruption like memory lapse, just to give us more time to set up. Not sure.

Goblins, he turn 3d me. Then game 2, he turn 3 or 4d me with piledrivers and vials. Game one was via caverns. I think he also had some number of PB. Had one for funsies game, and in that one, he goblin settlered me, I think with Kiki jiki, and I don’t think I could really do much about that at that point.

It was a fun night though. I’m far from being good, I think, but I’m at least somewhat aware of lines of play that gives me some edge, especially against players who aren’t very used to thinking about stack interactions as this deck makes. But the greatest weakness I can see is that I can’t deal with permanents.

As a side note, I played the goblins player a for funsies mono blue delver tempo build, and ground it out pretty well. He never saw that psionic blast coming.


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So... Force of Negation

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/...5BMH1%255D.jpg

Not sure if this new card is good for us or bad for us, although the extra timing restriction actually favors our game plan. Another counterspell, even one that can cast for pitch, isn't the type of card that's going to significantly move the needle. But it's not irrelevant.

Some thoughts-
Compared to FoW, easier to hard cast (say on turn 3) and easier to flashback.

I'm much much more interested in this at the moment:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7WpEvQW...png&name=small

An instant speed divination that's also a counterspell and can steal a delver (or whatever) seems like a solid and versatile card. I could see it as a 2-of or one main one board, or what have you.

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Originally Posted by Oldsrocket_27

I'm much much more interested in this at the moment:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7WpEvQW...png&name=small

An instant speed divination that's also a counterspell and can steal a delver (or whatever) seems like a solid and versatile card. I could see it as a 2-of or one main one board, or what have you.

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I was thinking more stealing a marit lage. But sure, stealing s delver is good too!
I think I saw the casting cost and thought it’s like a worse cryptic command, so it doesn’t seem good enough to play. But I think you’re right, that charm seems good

The new force is something im not sold on. The restrictions are too severe to make it worth a slot. Bear in mind some of our worst enemies are creature-based permanents. I think when going off, protecting the combo is easier by just out-stacking our opponent, not necessarily forcing things through.


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I think the flexibility of FoW is what makes it so great. Agreed that the restrictions of FoN make it less exciting. That being said, there might be a certain meta where we just want a 5th force. The cheaper casting cost and exile wording isn't irrelevant either.

I'm unsure whether it's good enough but I'll probably test the mono blue charm as the 60th main deck slot too. That flexibility is pretty tempting.

Let me know how the charm goes. I proxied one up, and am struggling to make a case for it in the 75. I really wanna find a reasonable use for it!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

Let me know how the charm goes. I proxied one up, and am struggling to make a case for it in the 75. I really wanna find a reasonable use for it!

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My next legacy fnm is tomorrow so I'll just miss out on release date, but I'll pick one up for next time.

Also just wanted to say thank you to everyone that's contributed to the forum. I've been a long time lurker and picked up the deck around a year ago. Although I've not been playing much recently, trawling through the two forums from the last 10-15 years really helped with getting started.

cool! congrats!

can you share a decklist? i'm curious to see what you've come down to after trawling through the forums here.

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

cool! congrats!

can you share a decklist? i'm curious to see what you've come down to after trawling through the forums here.

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Sure!

11 Islands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 Opt
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Reset
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Repeal
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Had lots of fun at FNM tonight (even if it wasn't the most successful record):

0-2 Vs UB Death's Shadow
0-2 Vs Grixis Control
1-2 Vs UB Death's Shadow
1-1 Vs Burn (We both had to run to get our last trains, so we couldn't get the last game in.)

Overall, I don't think I can beat myself up too much when I played against so much main deck discard, particularly when I'm a bit rusty. (T1 thoughtseize into T2 hymn hurts.) There were some interesting stacks throughout the night, and it was to get some second opinions on in game decisions and sideboard options. Tons of fun.

NB: I'm glad to see Leovold drop off the radar, but I think the new Narset is going to be here to stay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Probablypike

Sure!

11 Islands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 Opt
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Reset
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Repeal
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Had lots of fun at FNM tonight (even if it wasn't the most successful record):

0-2 Vs UB Death's Shadow
0-2 Vs Grixis Control
1-2 Vs UB Death's Shadow
1-1 Vs Burn (We both had to run to get our last trains, so we couldn't get the last game in.)

Overall, I don't think I can beat myself up too much when I played against so much main deck discard, particularly when I'm a bit rusty. (T1 thoughtseize into T2 hymn hurts.) There were some interesting stacks throughout the night, and it was to get some second opinions on in game decisions and sideboard options. Tons of fun.

NB: I'm glad to see Leovold drop off the radar, but I think the new Narset is going to be here to stay.

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cheers!

Yea, that looks like a pretty stock list. How was the remands? have you tried narsets reversal? it does what you tend to want to do with remand, and can save stuff for ya (also, it counters uncounterable stuff).

Have you tried three wishes in place for the meditates (on the off-chance you meet a lot of narset)? could be good, but i've not considered them to be that great unfortunately.

I've started to put together the greediest of all high tide lists. its Ugw, G for growth spiral, W for new teferi. The deck's basically solidarity with 3-4x time spiral, 1-2x new narset.

It's the pinnacle of win-more. I think the typical combo turn allows me to continue dropping lands between each time spiral, which lowers the chances of whiffing, and all at instant speed (because of teferi), after an opponent's upkeep step. One of the tricks i've had to do was to narset's reversal the cunning wishes, so keep on wishing during the combo turn without exiling the wish. It's hilariously fun, but amazingly bad if even one thing doesn't go your way.

Hello,

So after quite a lot of testing I'm afraid the UG version is not as good as the mono blue one.

Long story short, the results of many matches (>50) against Tempo and Stompy decks on 3 games proved that my win % is higher with a mono blue shell than with a UG shell.

I haven't thought about the new cards recently spoiled but I do think none of them are playable (except maybe, MAYBE, the new charm).

Anyway, just as a reminder here is my mono blue version (which is quite stable at the moment since oct 2018 printing of Mission Briefing):

PS: One can play 2 BF MD and replace the Remand with Unsubstantiate but I prefer the list as is:


11 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Meditate

4 Force of Will
3 Remand

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
2 Mission Briefing
2 Snap

3 Snapcaster Mage


SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Engulf the Shore
SB: 1 Pact of Negation


I'm glad some are playing the deck !

Regards,

Ralf

Cool. I actually run a split of 1 unsubstantiate, 2 Narsets reversal in your 3 remand spots.
I also came down to that mono u is more consistent than ug.

I’m also brewing the most win-more high tide list. Features new narset PW, resets, high tides, time spirals, splashing green for growth spirals, splashing white for new teferi, and the new timetwister.

Has anyone tested the new force of will and/or new charm? My brief testing says he new charm is unplayable. Each mode is pretty mild, cost is too high.

new force can be good (mostly cuz it’s straight castable when needed), but the most important is that it exiles the spell countered. Fringe, but very good when relevant.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

Cool. I actually run a split of 1 unsubstantiate, 2 Narsets reversal in your 3 remand spots.
I also came down to that mono u is more consistent than ug.

I’m also brewing the most win-more high tide list. Features new narset PW, resets, high tides, time spirals, splashing green for growth spirals, splashing white for new teferi, and the new timetwister.

Has anyone tested the new force of will and/or new charm? My brief testing says he new charm is unplayable. Each mode is pretty mild, cost is too high.

new force can be good (mostly cuz it’s straight castable when needed), but the most important is that it exiles the spell countered. Fringe, but very good when relevant.


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How do you like Reversal ?

I tried it as a 1-of but wasn't convinced.
It opens up a few "cool" plays BUT it was usually too narrow:
+ good vs discard deck
+ spare 1 mana compared with Remand (Tide + Remand + Tide + Reset / Tide + Reversal + Reset) and act as a very strong comblo enabler because you can replay the Tide you have Reversal'd.
+ can work under chalice (at least it gives you a window to combo)
- only works against ritual/instant


PS: Actually, I think Reversal should not replace Remand but Snapcaster.

I've not tried Narset's Reversal, but I'd imagined the wider range of targets for remand would outweigh any advantages of NR. Sometimes Remand is just a time walk when your opp plays a planeswalker. Remand can still bounce a High Tide or a Brain Freeze back to your hand, too. (As Ralf said, it seems sweet against discard though.)

I've not cast all that many three wishes, but I think the extra card from Meditate means I wouldn't currently consider a split of the two.

Ralf- thanks for the feedback on your Narset's Reversal and UG testing.

How have people found playing Teferi/Narset? I've never seriously considered anything that isn't instant speed. Doesn't including planeswalkers push you closer to a Spiral Tide list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Probablypike

I've not tried Narset's Reversal, but I'd imagined the wider range of targets for remand would outweigh any advantages of NR. Sometimes Remand is just a time walk when your opp plays a planeswalker. Remand can still bounce a High Tide or a Brain Freeze back to your hand, too. (As Ralf said, it seems sweet against discard though.)

I've not cast all that many three wishes, but I think the extra card from Meditate means I wouldn't currently consider a split of the two.

Ralf- thanks for the feedback on your Narset's Reversal and UG testing.

How have people found playing Teferi/Narset? I've never seriously considered anything that isn't instant speed. Doesn't including planeswalkers push you closer to a Spiral Tide list?

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Don't get me wrong. I was just saying replacing Remand by Reversal might not be great.
However, replacing Snapcaster by Reversal might accelerate us while diminishing our grave dependancy.

That will be my next test.

-3 Snapcaster +3 reversal MD
-2 Snap +2 turnabout MD

I bet the idea is interesting.

narset's reversal allows us to force the combo through EVERYTHING. it's almost like, turn 4-5, as long as i have one in hand, i can go off.

chalice on 1? sure, whatever. an uncounterable dovin's veto? yoink!
It gives us plays that we wouldn't have any business doing. especially against chalice.

Its even 'good' (read: cute) stealing an ad nauseum and going off in response.

I've not found remand to be good compared to unsubstantiate and reversal generally. the problem is that it has the word counter on it. So the few cards that says it can't be countered is remand proof. this can be a problem if they have some amount of stack interactions. otherwise, i tend to just try to leave their counters/response on the stack until i kill them. This is why i run unsubstantiate over remand.

Also, i can hear the naysayers griping about the 1 card that remand draws. Sure. It draws me a card. But to be honest, if i ever get down to the point where the card draw from remand is relevant, i'm probably at 40-60% winning already, and that 1 card is more a "good luck, mate" sort of play. Other times, when i'm in a good position, the 1 card is almost irrelevant/win-more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

narset's reversal allows us to force the combo through EVERYTHING. it's almost like, turn 4-5, as long as i have one in hand, i can go off.

chalice on 1? sure, whatever. an uncounterable dovin's veto? yoink!
It gives us plays that we wouldn't have any business doing. especially against chalice.

Its even 'good' (read: cute) stealing an ad nauseum and going off in response.

I've not found remand to be good compared to unsubstantiate and reversal generally. the problem is that it has the word counter on it. So the few cards that says it can't be countered is remand proof. this can be a problem if they have some amount of stack interactions. otherwise, i tend to just try to leave their counters/response on the stack until i kill them. This is why i run unsubstantiate over remand.

Also, i can hear the naysayers griping about the 1 card that remand draws. Sure. It draws me a card. But to be honest, if i ever get down to the point where the card draw from remand is relevant, i'm probably at 40-60% winning already, and that 1 card is more a "good luck, mate" sort of play. Other times, when i'm in a good position, the 1 card is almost irrelevant/win-more.

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1061090

I did suggest "Unsubstantiate" over "Remand" a few months ago for all the reasons you stated.

Only tests will prevail (and yes I'm bouncing between them).


NB: Lately, I had a few games won on that f.cking Remand's draw, to be honest: the dreadly classical "meditate" into 2 land +1 opt +1 Remand while you are comboing. Remanding the "Opt" gave me the card I was looking for (mana was not a problem, only to max out my odds of not fizzling)...

Anyway, let's first see how it goes !

My reasoning to replace SCM is that it is usually a dead card until the combo turn.
I guess NR will also be spared for the combo turn BUT you do have a few other "incentives" to play it before and this is what I find appealing over SCM (snagging an opposite HTT, TS, Ponder or forcing your combo through...you name it)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1061090

I did suggest "Unsubstantiate" over "Remand" a few months ago for all the reasons you stated.

Only tests will prevail (and yes I'm bouncing between them).


NB: Lately, I had a few games won on that f.cking Remand's draw, to be honest: the dreadly classical "meditate" into 2 land +1 opt +1 Remand while you are comboing. Remanding the "Opt" gave me the card I was looking for (mana was not a problem, only to max out my odds of not fizzling)...

Anyway, let's first see how it goes !

My reasoning to replace SCM is that it is usually a dead card until the combo turn.
I guess NR will also be spared for the combo turn BUT you do have a few other "incentives" to play it before and this is what I find appealing over SCM (snagging an opposite HTT, TS, Ponder or forcing your combo through...you name it)

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haha lucky bugger! I think more often than not, the remand draw isn't all that relevant for me. But as you say though, this deck kinda lives and dies by its quite thin margins, so maybe it is more relevant than i give it credit for.
One thing that might be relevant though; i try to brain freeze into flash of insight myself as early as i can, so maybe that's why the remand draw is rarely that relevant for me. You know, the trick of demonic tutor for your next draw card, then stacking some impulses with 3 land + whatever you need to continue combo-ing.

On SCM, i've found that it's best use (aside from combo-stuff) has been to flash-block a eidolon, or whatever x/2 guy your opponent has. It's sort of saved me that way at least once or twice. Not saying that it's ultra relevant, but it's not irrelevant either.

Also, speaking of mini-brain freezes, have you seen that card ever mind? it's got 3 mana splice onto instant, draw a card. Basically means it can function as a 3 mana draw 6-7 when you do a mini-brain freeze. I'm thinking i'm gonna test:
1 meditate
4 evermind
4 brain freeze
2-3 snap
1-2 turnabout

the rest as stock as possible. The plan is to get as much mana as possible, and brain freeze+evermind as the main draw engine instead of meditates. As far as i'm aware, you can splice the same card multiple times onto brain freeze, right? so i can, if i wanted to, with 10 mana, brain freeze x6, target opponent, and splice twice, drawing 12 cards, and continue combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

haha lucky bugger! I think more often than not, the remand draw isn't all that relevant for me. But as you say though, this deck kinda lives and dies by its quite thin margins, so maybe it is more relevant than i give it credit for.
One thing that might be relevant though; i try to brain freeze into flash of insight myself as early as i can, so maybe that's why the remand draw is rarely that relevant for me. You know, the trick of demonic tutor for your next draw card, then stacking some impulses with 3 land + whatever you need to continue combo-ing.

On SCM, i've found that it's best use (aside from combo-stuff) has been to flash-block a eidolon, or whatever x/2 guy your opponent has. It's sort of saved me that way at least once or twice. Not saying that it's ultra relevant, but it's not irrelevant either.

Also, speaking of mini-brain freezes, have you seen that card ever mind? it's got 3 mana splice onto instant, draw a card. Basically means it can function as a 3 mana draw 6-7 when you do a mini-brain freeze. I'm thinking i'm gonna test:
1 meditate
4 evermind
4 brain freeze
2-3 snap
1-2 turnabout

the rest as stock as possible. The plan is to get as much mana as possible, and brain freeze+evermind as the main draw engine instead of meditates. As far as i'm aware, you can splice the same card multiple times onto brain freeze, right? so i can, if i wanted to, with 10 mana, brain freeze x6, target opponent, and splice twice, drawing 12 cards, and continue combo.

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You should read the card "Evermind" again.
I don't think it works the way you suggest it is :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

You should read the card "Evermind" again.
I don't think it works the way you suggest it is :p

---

Whoops everdream I meant


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralf

Don't get me wrong. I was just saying replacing Remand by Reversal might not be great.
However, replacing Snapcaster by Reversal might accelerate us while diminishing our grave dependancy.

That will be my next test.

-3 Snapcaster +3 reversal MD
-2 Snap +2 turnabout MD

I bet the idea is interesting.

---

Oh I see, sounds good. To be honest, I play Turnabout and Flash of Insight over Snapcaster and Snap anyway. Maybe cutting Flash of Insight (as much as that would pain me- I love that card) to try Narset's Reversal is something I could try.

Everdream seems cool, but the situations in which it's good seem to narrow to justify an inclusion. As always, happy to be proven wrong, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Probablypike

Oh I see, sounds good. To be honest, I play Turnabout and Flash of Insight over Snapcaster and Snap anyway. Maybe cutting Flash of Insight (as much as that would pain me- I love that card) to try Narset's Reversal is something I could try.

Everdream seems cool, but the situations in which it's good seem to narrow to justify an inclusion. As always, happy to be proven wrong, though.

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As far as testing goes, I like it. I wasn't very confident about inevitability at first as I thought SCM was fairly better to keep going but I haven't failed yet after 20 games.

I'd even say I feel like the deck is more resilient as I don't have to rely on the clunky "snap my SCM" kind of play which always gave a window for my opponent to interact during the combo turn.

Did someone else bite the bullet and tried it ?

So I tried Narset's Reversal at FNM tonight. Things I've targeted with NR tonight:

My opponent's FoW targeting my FoW targeting Glistener Elf (preventing Glistener Elf from resolving).

My opponent's FoW targeting my FoW targeting my opponent's Narset (preventing Narset from resolving).

My own High Tide when my opponent has a Chalice one one (allowing me to get a storm count of over ten).

My own flusterstorm that was being countered by my opponent's flusterstorm (original copy, leaving the storm copies on the stack) allowing me to recast flusterstorm and counter their flusterstorm copies.

More than once targeted my own High Tide that was being countered.

Sometimes NR felt a bit cute, but sometimes it really saved my bacon, and it was almost never a dead card. I'm going to keep playing it in my main deck and really liked it.

I also tried one Archmage's Charm in the 75, but never cast it. I don't think there's space in the main deck for it, but I'm also not sure it's s sideboard card. (Possibly could be justified in the same way that people used to put a meditate in the board for wishable card draw.) Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Any new developments from anyone else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Probablypike

So I tried Narset's Reversal at FNM tonight. Things I've targeted with NR tonight:

My opponent's FoW targeting my FoW targeting Glistener Elf (preventing Glistener Elf from resolving).

My opponent's FoW targeting my FoW targeting my opponent's Narset (preventing Narset from resolving).

My own High Tide when my opponent has a Chalice one one (allowing me to get a storm count of over ten).

My own flusterstorm that was being countered by my opponent's flusterstorm (original copy, leaving the storm copies on the stack) allowing me to recast flusterstorm and counter their flusterstorm copies.

More than once targeted my own High Tide that was being countered.

Sometimes NR felt a bit cute, but sometimes it really saved my bacon, and it was almost never a dead card. I'm going to keep playing it in my main deck and really liked it.

I also tried one Archmage's Charm in the 75, but never cast it. I don't think there's space in the main deck for it, but I'm also not sure it's s sideboard card. (Possibly could be justified in the same way that people used to put a meditate in the board for wishable card draw.) Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Any new developments from anyone else?

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Hello!

I'm new to Solidarity, but it looks like its my dream come true. I'd like to pilot it for the next league I'm playing in, but I need a little help first.

1) What's a relatively stock list to start jamming games with?

2) What is the deck strong against and weak to?

3) Is there a community of Solidarity players besides here on the source?

By the way, Narset's Reversal is a busted card and seems perfect for this deck in several ways. Something that I think you missed is that it can generate tempo as well as raw card advantage vs counterspells via returning your spell (the one targeted by the counter) to your hand, fizzling their counter and buying back your spell. Its a cute interaction, but its pretty damn powerful. As mentioned above, it lets you play THROUGH chalice on 1, and it can function as an expensive second copy of any important spell (ie. high tide). On the other hand, Archmage's Charm seems like it just misses the cut in this deck. 3 CMC is an awkward spot for something not as powerful as meditate or cunning wish.

i think there's builds in this thread, but prob not too many since there were some new possible additions as you mentioned.

because the deck will never be tier 1, you can probably just play the build that you enjoy the most. think about the cards you like playing in this kind of deck.

for me i really like the interaction between snap and snapcaster mage. it also gives you some maindeck answers to cards like thalia, leovold, and just keeping creatures off the board.

mission briefing, narset's reversal, archmage's charm, and to a lesser extent growth spiral are all pretty recent. you just gotta find what you like doing most with the deck. because the deck is slower than a deck like ANT/Tes/Ruby and arguably slower than show and tell decks too, you might want to find way to play a more interactive game and not go so much for pure speed. play on the strength of having a mono blue deck.

just some thoughts. could be wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excile2127

Hello!

I'm new to Solidarity, but it looks like its my dream come true. I'd like to pilot it for the next league I'm playing in, but I need a little help first.

1) What's a relatively stock list to start jamming games with?

2) What is the deck strong against and weak to?

3) Is there a community of Solidarity players besides here on the source?

By the way, Narset's Reversal is a busted card and seems perfect for this deck in several ways. Something that I think you missed is that it can generate tempo as well as raw card advantage vs counterspells via returning your spell (the one targeted by the counter) to your hand, fizzling their counter and buying back your spell. Its a cute interaction, but its pretty damn powerful. As mentioned above, it lets you play THROUGH chalice on 1, and it can function as an expensive second copy of any important spell (ie. high tide). On the other hand, Archmage's Charm seems like it just misses the cut in this deck. 3 CMC is an awkward spot for something not as powerful as meditate or cunning wish.

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1) You can start using the following list:

11 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Meditate

4 Force of Will
3 Remand

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Narset's Reversal
2 Mission Briefing
2 Turnabout

SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Engulf the Shore
SB: 1 Pact of Negation

You should have all the "necessary" cards to start tweakening to your "liking" afterward.


2) You should win most of your G1 (like many combo decks). G2 & G3 are usually where the battle starts.

Tough MUs are usually Tempo decks and faster combo decks (usually graveyard based decks such as Dredge and Reanimator).

The worst enemy is usually "yourself". Solidarity is usually one of (if not the) the best challenging deck for your own sake.
Decision tree is often a nightmare and among many paths you could take, there are only a few (not to say only one sometimes) that can lead you to victory.

Fizzling is "real" compared to other combo decks but the above list should give you good odds if you reach at least 4 islands in play (the lesser the more chances you have to fizzle, the more islands you have the less chance to fizzle).

Rule n°1: make land drops
Rule n°2: make land drops
Rule n°3: make land drops
...

As a matter of fact when you first play the deck, I usually advise to combo ONLY WHEN you are facing lethal.
This simple rule will, at least, force you to wait until the very last moment to "combo" and should reduce your fizzling odds by a fair margin.

Afterwards, get familiar with your deck. Learn how to count & kill "small" (i.e: Storm 7 -> Brain Freeze -> remand/narset/Briefing -> BF again).


3) I don't know of any community outside the Source for Solidarity players.

By the way,

Welcome !!!

And above all, have fun.

Should you have any questions, feel free to post in here.

Ralf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

1) You can start using the following list:

11 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Meditate

4 Force of Will
3 Remand

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Narset's Reversal
2 Mission Briefing
2 Turnabout

SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Engulf the Shore
SB: 1 Pact of Negation

You should have all the "necessary" cards to start tweakening to your "liking" afterward.


2) You should win most of your G1 (like many combo decks). G2 & G3 are usually where the battle starts.

Tough MUs are usually Tempo decks and faster combo decks (usually graveyard based decks such as Dredge and Reanimator).

The worst enemy is usually "yourself". Solidarity is usually one of (if not the) the best challenging deck for your own sake.
Decision tree is often a nightmare and among many paths you could take, there are only a few (not to say only one sometimes) that can lead you to victory.

Fizzling is "real" compared to other combo decks but the above list should give you good odds if you reach at least 4 islands in play (the lesser the more chances you have to fizzle, the more islands you have the less chance to fizzle).

Rule n°1: make land drops
Rule n°2: make land drops
Rule n°3: make land drops
...

As a matter of fact when you first play the deck, I usually advise to combo ONLY WHEN you are facing lethal.
This simple rule will, at least, force you to wait until the very last moment to "combo" and should reduce your fizzling odds by a fair margin.

Afterwards, get familiar with your deck. Learn how to count & kill "small" (i.e: Storm 7 -> Brain Freeze -> remand/narset/Briefing -> BF again).


3) I don't know of any community outside the Source for Solidarity players.

By the way,

Welcome !!!

And above all, have fun.

Should you have any questions, feel free to post in here.

Ralf

---

Completely agreed with all the above points, except to also add, it’s not strong not because it’s a bad deck, but mostly because it’s a nightmare to pilot. It most definitely is the toughest deck to pilot competently, let alone well.

After every game loss, I can always point to pilot failure. Heck even with wins, I could always improve sequencing.

If I were you, I’d train like this:
Level 1 - try to sculpt and combo off turn 4 consistently.
2 - same as level 1, but against minor pressure
3 - same as level 2, but against another blue-heavy counterspell deck
4 - same as 3, but don’t use counterspell a against it (in other words, learn to abuse the stack).

Level 4 is the sort of level that allows you to actually beat reasonable players playing blue. My best I’ve ever done was comboing through counterbalance on 2, 1 blast, 1 force and 1 counterspell against a miracles opponent game 2 or 3, in response to a jace brainstorm activation. And I think I only was forced to counter one of those.

Solidarity is great cuz you can leverage the stack to your advantage to a level that no one else can do, and that’s what makes/breaks your game.




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Wow! I honestly wasn’t really expecting a response like this! Thank you all so much!

I’m aware of the difficulty of the deck, which is partly why I’m drawn to it. I’ve always been a Storm player, but it gets old when you already know what to do most times due to the nature of Storm. Solidarity being at instant speed makes things so interesting, as you can combo off in response to anything, assuming you have the ability to start your combo.

I’d really like to try and take this deck to the next level, and start a dedicated group of people trying to tune and perfect it. Is there a discord for Solidarity? If not, I’d like to start one. Furthermore, are any of you keeping track of your matches? I’ve got a handy doc to help show what matches we are favored in, what is our average turn rate, and how you stack up against your local metagame.

Besides the basics on how to pilot the deck, are there any tips or tricks I should know? Obviously, there isn’t a substitute for actually playing it, but if there are some common lines I’d like to learn them.

EDIT 1: Also, what does our matchups look like? I’ve gleamed that discard is rough, and that counterspells can be played around, but besides that I’m in the dark.

EDIT 2: Also, what are common SB cards we have to deal with? Obviously there are anti-storm cards, but is there anything specific to solidarity?

EDIT 3: Also, I want to play Narset's Reversal, but I love the synergy between Snap and Snapcaster Mage. However, the seemingly natural cut, Remand, is better than Reversal in some cases (like vs Prison decks, decks that play must-answer threats, etc.). Can we afford to play Reversal? Being able to combo through Challice on 1 would be really nice...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Excile2127

Besides the basics on how to pilot the deck, are there any tips or tricks I should know? Obviously, there isn’t a substitute for actually playing it, but if there are some common lines I’d like to learn them.

EDIT 1: Also, what does our matchups look like? I’ve gleamed that discard is rough, and that counterspells can be played around, but besides that I’m in the dark.

EDIT 2: Also, what are common SB cards we have to deal with? Obviously there are anti-storm cards, but is there anything specific to solidarity?

EDIT 3: Also, I want to play Narset's Reversal, but I love the synergy between Snap and Snapcaster Mage. However, the seemingly natural cut, Remand, is better than Reversal in some cases (like vs Prison decks, decks that play must-answer threats, etc.). Can we afford to play Reversal? Being able to combo through Challice on 1 would be really nice...

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1) Solidarity is usually not expected. High Tide decks are not quite common. Discard isn't THAT rough (Meditate is a hell of a card). Solidarity won't lose to a single attack angle if it is what you ask; like other combo decks, your opponent will need more to beat you (discard+counterspell+fast clock for example).

There is also something peculiar with Solidarity. It is a 3 pieces combo deck @ 4 islands in play; it is a 2 pieces combo deck @ 6+ island in play and it could even be a 1 piece combo deck @ 8+ island in play. The more the game drags on the better your odds are to win the game.

2) Blue deck is blue decks. Expect anti-"Blue" spells, anti-storm cards and anti-combo cards. Usually always board out 1 High Tide, 1 Meditate and 1 Reset against black decks to avoid extraction spells.

3) Read the thread from a few pages back and look @ the provided list. Remand + Reversal is, IMHO, the way to go (and I have explained my reasoning behind that choice). Both SCM and Reversal are strong but I think they compete for the same slot:

a- SCM is stronger in a vaccum, Reversal is faster.
b- SCM cannot be played for CMC 2 (save emergency)
c- Reversal cannot block
d- Reversal can let you play through chalice on 1
e- Reversal is better vs discard
f- SCM makes you grave dependant and then opens you up to more anti-sideboard cards
g- SCM is not impacted by Thalia's effect
h- SCM grows opposite tarmogoyf
i- SCM has a good synergy with Snap but that gives your opponent a window to interact/ blow you out.

Etc...

That list is far from being comprehensive but until I'm proven otherwise, I think Reversal > SCM at the moment.

4) As far as I know there is no discord channel for Solidarity.

Happy testing,

Ralf

There’s a high tide channel with a solidarity sub channel though. No idea how to invite.

In general, a fast clock combined with disruption is what gets solidarity. Strangely enough, even though it’s probably correct to board out a high tide games 2-3 against surgical/gy hate, I try to keep my maindexk as smooth as possible, and go off/react in response, if they have it (mission briefing/SCM even if it’s not going to combo there and then).

I find that if my opponent thinks I’m gonna side in say 6-8 cards against them, they’re more willing to slow their clock considerably to meet me. So I just keep my speed up, and try to outrace them. Not foolproof, but more effective than otherwise (for my style of play).

By the way, how many turnabouts do you guys run these days?


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https://discord.gg/9DDprc

Se if that works.


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Awesome! The linked worked!

Thank you guys for your help, the provided list has been working great.

I've got another question, however. Why don't we run a High Tide in the SB, and go up another wish? There have been several games I've either goldfished or played so far that I have a hard time finding a high tide, and that would let us essentially go up to 7 in board, as opposed to 4. Also, by going on the 2 Turnabout/3 Reversal plan, we free a slot up in the SB for High Tide as we probably don't want Snap anymore. Thoughts?

EDIT: I realize I'm asking a lot of questions, but so far I'm seeing Brain Freeze//Flash of Insight, Snap//Snappy, and Turnabout//Reversal as viable options for the flex slots. What are your thoughts on FoI? And would you mind explaining some of the SB cards (when to bring what in, what to leave in the SB, etc.).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excile2127

Awesome! The linked worked!

Thank you guys for your help, the provided list has been working great.

I've got another question, however. Why don't we run a High Tide in the SB, and go up another wish? There have been several games I've either goldfished or played so far that I have a hard time finding a high tide, and that would let us essentially go up to 7 in board, as opposed to 4. Also, by going on the 2 Turnabout/3 Reversal plan, we free a slot up in the SB for High Tide as we probably don't want Snap anymore. Thoughts?

EDIT: I realize I'm asking a lot of questions, but so far I'm seeing Brain Freeze//Flash of Insight, Snap//Snappy, and Turnabout//Reversal as viable options for the flex slots. What are your thoughts on FoI? And would you mind explaining some of the SB cards (when to bring what in, what to leave in the SB, etc.).

---

There is a big difference between "losing because you didn't see a HT" and "winning with having difficulty to see a HT"

I played 4 CW for a long time and this is definitely a consideration.
Now CMC 3 is a lot more than CMC 1 and I hate opening hands that contains 2+ CW.

Not finding HT will happen. Do as your guts are telling you.

SB is flexible so to speak.

But you need at least a few cards to deal with pesky permanents:
- mass anti artifact to get you out of prison strategies
- mass anti creature to get you out of Thalia + MoM + Prelate/Canonist (for example)
- Bunch of free spells to be king of the stack
- 2 BF (1 Coming in, the second one to be tutored)
- 1 BSZ to deck your opponent when it matters (deck with Emrakul effect or when you need to win on the spot)
- X anti grave strategies.

Anti grave sideboard cards are too narrow to my taste and hinder your other MUs by a fair margin when you invest too many slots to it. I prefer hedging something else and I'm ready to give up the dredge MU.
Others grave decks usually can be beaten on the stack so to speak.

For sideboard tables, when you don't know what to do, follow the first advice (1 HT 1 Reset 1 Meditate out, +1 BF and +2 other "spot" cards). Almost always leave mass effect in the sideboard for tutoring purposes.

Then you'll need to test and test again in order to determine what other cards can be switched in/out.

For example, against tempo decks, trimming a few or most of your Remand was a popular choice in the past.
Cutting higher CMC cards for lower ones might also be a path to take

Against fair decks, you can question the need of 4 FOW in your deck...

Against Control deck you may trim a fetch or an island to increase your number of business cards...

Etc.

Anyway my words are "no gold". Play hundreds of games and come up with your own conclusion.
Just remember if you don't know how to board in G2. Just stay as you are. A well oiled machine will always be better than a kinky board and you will always be able to board better in G3 after seeing opposite countermeasures.

My two cents.

Ralf

PS: avoid tweakening the list before at least a hundred games. Losing 5 times in a row against a certain deck doesn't mean the list is bad again this archetype. You may end up winning the next 10 games.
This deck requires experience above all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excile2127

EDIT: I realize I'm asking a lot of questions, but so far I'm seeing Brain Freeze//Flash of Insight, Snap//Snappy, and Turnabout//Reversal as viable options for the flex slots. What are your thoughts on FoI? And would you mind explaining some of the SB cards (when to bring what in, what to leave in the SB, etc.).

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Don't worry about asking questions! It's what we're al here for.

I really love Flash of Insight, but I've cut it to play Narset's Reversal (I used to play 2 Brain Freeze and 2 Flash of Insight main deck, but have gone down to 1 BF and three NR.) It usually acts as a panic button when you need to find a particular card and allows you to search really deep into your deck. The option to Brain Freeze yourself, milling until you find FoI, then flash backing it to search your deck with the remaining BF copies still on the stack can really get you out of a pickle.

Another possibility is that if you get X high enough, you can stack your deck to the order of your choice.

All that being said, no regrets on cutting it for Narset's Reversal!

Also, thanks for the tips of sideboarding, Ralf. Definitely agree on cutting remand against tempo and Force against fair decks as general rules.