All B/R update speculation.

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The new B&R announcement policy

"Going forward, Banned and Restricted updates will by synchronized with set releases. For each set, starting with Gatecrash, the announcement will be the Monday after the Prerelease, and the effective date will be the same as the release date of the set."

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Because apparently, the changing of the seasons isn't a big enough of an occasion for self involved nerds to figure out when something's happening. They assumed we don't go outside to see this happen, methinks.

-Matt

So we don't get to have one or two final weekly tournaments with a card before a ban goes live? It was always like a going away party.

And I'm not really liking synching everything in Magic up to new set releases.

The next B&R announcement is going to be Jan. 28, 2013. Effective Feb. 1, 2013.

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

See my signature.

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I can haz Value?

*dances a jigg*

Oh Wizards, just unban those cards we all know will bomb out like Land Tax, come on now! you can KILL someone on your turn 1, and that's not banned, but making someone discard a bunch of cards is banned? Who is going to put both players into topdeck mode when they can KILL their opponent from the beginning, just unban midtwist already! there's dumber stuff available in the format. >^,^<

I thought they were going to ban Temporal Mastery.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I thought they were going to ban Temporal Mastery.

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win

Thanks god nothing got banned. Faith in WotC restored.

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Originally Posted by theBloody

Thanks god nothing got banned. Faith in WotC restored.

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Yep, atm nothing seems (un)banworthy. The metagame is pretty healthy with Control, Tempo, Aggro and Combo running around. Plus it will shift abit post-RTR...

Greetings

I think they could have easily unbanned Mind Twist. Thats kinda sad...

Primeval Titan banned in EDH. I'm so happy right now :D

Ugh. But I hearts PrimeTime.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

I think they could have easily unbanned Mind Twist. Thats kinda sad...

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They probably just want to move slowly and see how Land Tax is going to work in Legacy (if at all) as well as all the new cards they just released. Honestly, I'd rather see cards like Dryad Militant and Abrupt Decay than see something that used to be powerful like Mindtwist get unbanned. Abrupt Decay is going to be far more relevant than Mindtwist (if unbanned).




@lordofthepit.. lolol nice. I laugh to myself everytime I see the card. So much panic over something so bad.. "OH SHIT! THE FUCK!!?? DUDE THE SKY! FUCKKKKKKKK! ITS.. OH GOD... I THINK I JUST SHIT MYSELF!" "Oh... dude look they printed Explore only its blue and sometimes it costs 7."

I have also recently experienced that SCM-Gitaxian Probe-Cabal Therapy trio can be as effective as Mind Twist or maybe more. Certainly not fun. I'm not sure if it would mean Mind Twist is safe to ban or if it means we don't need additional unfun empty-your-hand spells.

Edit: I didn't want to double post so I'm editing my previous one. I was curious, what's everybody's take for the future of S&T? It may not be ban worthy but do you think its ban somewhere down the line is inevitable as Wizards keep pushing big boom boom spells?

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

I have also recently experienced that SCM-Gitaxian Probe-Cabal Therapy trio can be as effective as Mind Twist or maybe more. Certainly not fun. I'm not sure if it would mean Mind Twist is safe to ban or if it means we don't need additional unfun empty-your-hand spells.

Edit: I didn't want to double post so I'm editing my previous one. I was curious, what's everybody's take for the future of S&T? It may not be ban worthy but do you think its ban somewhere down the line is inevitable as Wizards keep pushing big boom boom spells?

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S&T probably won't be banned. The consensus seems to be that the card is on par with the power level of legacy. It's obviously strong, but so are a lot of cards.

You need to have two cards in hand (one of which is S&T) to go off. It's not much different than having something like dark ritual + ad nauseam (need 3 mana, just like with S&T), or painter + grindstone (need 6 mana but you can play pieces one at a time).

It's unlikely that S&T will get much better than it is now. Of course, they will continue printing broken fatties along the lineage of Emrakul, Jin-Gitaxias, Griselbrand, and Omniscience, but they can also print hate cards to counteract S&T if it becomes too strong.

Lots of decks have an irrational fear of combo because they have no way to interact with the combo. The reality is that combo has always existed and will continue to exist, and any serious decks need to be able to interact with it.

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Originally Posted by Malchar

[Show and Tell is] not much different than having something like dark ritual + ad nauseam (need 3 mana, just like with S&T)

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To be fair, Show and Tell is usually a bit weaker than Ad Nauseam (provided there are no active taxing effects a la Thalia, obv).

Once the combo player resolves Ad Nauseam--as long as they don't kill themselves with unlucky draws off AN--they almost certainly win the game on the spot. Show and Tell, on the other hand, gives the combo player's opponent an opportunity to drop something that beats Show and Tell (Angel of Despair, O.Ring, Detention Sphere). The exception here is Show and Tell into Progenitus, but it isn't a fast enough clock to win consistently in the current format--hence it doesn't see a lot of play currently, and Griselbrand was quick to replace it in Show and Tell decks.

IMO Show and Tell will be banned if and only if Wizards prints something that wins off Show and Tell, can't be targeted, and is stronger than Progenitus. Emrakul comes close, but misses the mark because it can be targeted by abilities. Something like a Hexproof/Shroud Emrakul or Omniscience. Given that Hexproof is now an evergreen keyword this is certainly possible, but I think probably won't happen in the foreseeable future. Maybe if WotC releases another Eldrazi set or something.

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Originally Posted by lochlan

To be fair, Show and Tell is usually a bit weaker than Ad Nauseam (provided there are no active taxing effects a la Thalia, obv).

Once the combo player resolves Ad Nauseam--as long as they don't kill themselves with unlucky draws off AN--they almost certainly win the game on the spot. Show and Tell, on the other hand, gives the combo player's opponent an opportunity to drop something that beats Show and Tell (Angel of Despair, O.Ring, Detention Sphere). The exception here is Show and Tell into Progenitus, but it isn't a fast enough clock to win consistently in the current format--hence it doesn't see a lot of play currently, and Griselbrand was quick to replace it in Show and Tell decks.

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I generally agree with your analysis, but I'll add a few more points.

I think that the main disadvantage of ad nauseam compared to other combos is that your entire decks needs to be dedicated to it. Ad nauseam or other storm decks usually only get better when wizards prints very competitively-costed rituals, tutors, or free mana sources, which is pretty much not going to happen anymore. It can also get improved using cheap disruption spells like silence, duress, or spell pierce, but all of those cards usually work just as well against storm decks, so it ends up being a wash.

S&T seems to be getting better every expansion. Wizards invariably prints some kind of insane bomb where the only disadvantage is the huge mana cost, which is exactly the part that you get to avoid when using S&T. Of course, given the bombs that already exist, I can't foresee anything better getting printed. We seem to be at a place of relative stability in terms of cards being printed for combo decks. Now it's just a matter of fine-tuning the meta.

The other advantage of S&T is that you can easily toss in other combos or even play it in a semi-"normal" deck, just like how natural order + progenitus was tossed into RUG decks. To compare, you can't just "toss" ad nauseam or tendrils of agony into a normal deck and expect it to work.

Add to the fact that AdN is effectively [multiple ritual effets] -> [tutor] -> [AdN]. Playing ~14 lands, no free counters and only 1-2 copies of AdN does not a good comparison to SnT make.

On April 17th of this year, I had come to an impass on a discussion of the viability and banworthyness of a card that was only spoiled at the time. I offered a pretty big bet, which was refused. In my frustration, I simply stated the following.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

I can see you are not interested in my offer, which was and remains sincere. Either way, I will post that I was right on October 17th.

I have no more to say on this issue

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Here we are and this is what I now have to say.

DragoFireHeart was pretty convinced that Temporal Mastery was going to be so good that it may require a ban. Time has a way of revealing whether predictions are right. I think it is now pretty obvious that Temporal Mastery is not so good that it requires banning. In fact, it is not the best or second best miracle. It was simply a card that appeared amazing because it seemed similar to Time Walk.

With all due respect, I was right on this issue and you were mistaken, DragoFireHeart.

oh, sweet revenge

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

On April 17th of this year, I had come to an impass on a discussion of the viability and banworthyness of a card that was only spoiled at the time. I offered a pretty big bet, which was refused. In my frustration, I simply stated the following.



Here we are and this is what I now have to say.

DragoFireHeart was pretty convinced that Temporal Mastery was going to be so good that it may require a ban. Time has a way of revealing whether predictions are right. I think it is now pretty obvious that Temporal Mastery is not so good that it requires banning. In fact, it is not the best or second best miracle. It was simply a card that appeared amazing because it seemed similar to Time Walk.

With all due respect, I was right on this issue and you were mistaken, DragoFireHeart.

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This seems pretty childish.

It's nothing more than an internet "I told you so." I'm sorry that you not only felt the need to follow through with your commitment, but that you actually remembered it. Did you have it written down on a calendar or something?

The miracle of technology allows us to program reminders into our phones easily enough. I got the reminder and created the post this morning. I was not holding a grudge or anything, but I did commit to come back and so I did.

For what it is worth, I would have apologized if I had been wrong as well.

When I say I'll do something, I follow through. I believe that shouldn't be surprising.

I hope they ban Show and Tell, because I won't be playing competitive Legacy anymore until they do. :(

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This seems pretty childish.

It's nothing more than an internet "I told you so." I'm sorry that you not only felt the need to follow through with your commitment, but that you actually remembered it. Did you have it written down on a calendar or something?

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Actually, it seems pretty relevant to me.

Surely, the accuracy of one's past predictions says something meaningful about the accuracy of your future predictions, no? Have we no interest in learning from history, or past mistakes?

More importantly, ramanujan made a commitment and followed through on it. I fail to see how this says anything about him that is not positive. You only think him petty because he was right, and we live in a society that punishes success/excellence. If events had turned out differently, and he had posted today about how wrong he had been, we'd all be chatting about what a very good fellow he was, owning up to his mistakes like that.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Actually, it seems pretty relevant to me.

Surely, the accuracy of one's past predictions says something meaningful about the accuracy of your future predictions, no? Have we no interest in learning from history, or past mistakes?

More importantly, ramanujan made a commitment and followed through on it. I fail to see how this says anything about him that is not positive. You only think him petty because he was right, and we live in a society that punishes success/excellence. If events had turned out differently, and he had posted today about how wrong he had been, we'd all be chatting about what a very good fellow he was.

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Because humility is a good trait while arrogance isn't. Owning up to your failures should be rewarded and boasting about your achievements should be frowned upon. I don't understand how you feel otherwise.

This has nothing to do with learning from history. This is just someone tooting their own horn, plain and simple.

Also, I feel that someone physically setting a reminder on their phone to "I told you so" someone on the internet six months in the future is not normal, and should not be condoned or rewarded. It's strange behavior.

Regardless of how broken Show and Tell is, does anyone actually find it FUN to play against?

If they drop Emrakul and I drop Knight or Karakas, sure.

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Originally Posted by Philipp2293

If they drop Emrakul and I drop Knight or Karakas, sure.

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- And if I don't have Knight or Karakas?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Regardless of how broken Show and Tell is, does anyone actually find it FUN to play against?

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I just said that I don't plan to play competitive Legacy while Show and Tell is around and that is the reason.
I usually play Enchantress, so losing to combo is the norm and I take that as part of the game, but for some reason I'm not sure about I abhor playing against/with Show and Tell decks. I think they're too dumb, too stupid. Maybe that's because I'm from the time when Show and Tell was used to drop Serra Avatars so still today I see it as a dumb card and line of play.

Couple weeks ago there was a qualifier in my city for the Brazilian Legacy Nationals. I haven't played in a couple of months, I didn't have any sleep the night before the tournament and I wasn't even sure what deck I was playing, but I went to hang out with friends and have a good time slinging cards. In the car, on the way to the tournament, I ask one of my friends to see his deck. The card on top was a Show and Tell and I say "fuck that, hate that card, hate that deck, don't care about the list". Turns out I face 3 Show and Tell decks in my first 3 rounds, out of 5 Show and Tell decks in the tournament.

Point is, I don't have fun with Show and Tell decks around, be playing against them or playinh with them. Does anybody?

But losing to unfair decks like Reanimator, Dredge, ANT, TES, Painter, Elves etc. doesn't make you feel bad?

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Originally Posted by caiomarcos

I hope they ban Show and Tell, because I won't be playing competitive Legacy anymore until they do. :(

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I mean, is it that where you play the only thing winning is SnT? Because usually (and by usually I mean for like past 13 months) it's RUG, Maverick, Blade.

Edit: Fun, fun for me is definitely getting Wasteland-ed, Stifled, Dazed, Pierced, Bolted, and Delver-ed for 3 turns straight every time I lose die rolls:rolleyes:

And almost as good a time is getting Thalia, Mom, KotR and 7 tutor into play answers to anything that might get in the way


TL;DR: I think every deck is not fun, and sucks to play against

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Originally Posted by death

But losing to unfair decks like Reanimator, Dredge, ANT, TES, Painter, Elves etc. doesn't make you feel bad?

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- Except all of those have many different ways of answering.

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Originally Posted by death

But losing to unfair decks like Reanimator, Dredge, ANT, TES, Painter, Elves etc. doesn't make you feel bad?

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Not even close to Show and Tell decks.

I think my reasoning, actually my feeling (if it was rational it wouldn't matter which unfair deck I lose to) is that those decks are unfair but not dumb. Show and Tell is dumb.

Every deck strives to be unfair and have easy wins. When combo decks reach that point it is easier to see, but every other deck can get there. The problem I have with Show and Tell is not only the unfair portion. My problem is the "oops I win because I don't have to pay mana anymore" portion.

For a long time people have been complaining about the game becoming more creature centered, thus dumbing down things (I agree), but Show and Telliing stuff like Emrakul and Omniscience is another level of dumbing down the game.

Instead of banning things, why not unban things?

Earthcraft - Legacy just had another two-card win button (Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience). Why can't Earthcraft and Squirrel's Nest exist?

Frantic Search - Storm based combo is at all time low. I haven't seen High Tide place a significant event. Its not like Frantic Search will be helping Show and Tell decks and Dredge.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Instead of banning things, why not unban things?

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- Sometimes, you DO have to ban a particular nasty card. Mental Misstep is a good example of this: I don't see anything that could be unbanned that would make it work without having to just keep it on the banned list.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- Sometimes, you DO have to ban a particular nasty card. Mental Misstep is a good example of this: I don't see anything that could be unbanned that would make it work without having to just keep it on the banned list.

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But theres nothing detremental to Show and Tell right now. I do agree that its not a fair deck but its not like every top 8 has at least 4 of the archetypes it represents.

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Originally Posted by caiomarcos

I just said that I don't plan to play competitive Legacy while Show and Tell is around and that is the reason.
I usually play Enchantress, so losing to combo is the norm and I take that as part of the game, but for some reason I'm not sure about I abhor playing against/with Show and Tell decks. I think they're too dumb, too stupid. Maybe that's because I'm from the time when Show and Tell was used to drop Serra Avatars so still today I see it as a dumb card and line of play.

Couple weeks ago there was a qualifier in my city for the Brazilian Legacy Nationals. I haven't played in a couple of months, I didn't have any sleep the night before the tournament and I wasn't even sure what deck I was playing, but I went to hang out with friends and have a good time slinging cards. In the car, on the way to the tournament, I ask one of my friends to see his deck. The card on top was a Show and Tell and I say "fuck that, hate that card, hate that deck, don't care about the list". Turns out I face 3 Show and Tell decks in my first 3 rounds, out of 5 Show and Tell decks in the tournament.

Point is, I don't have fun with Show and Tell decks around, be playing against them or playinh with them. Does anybody?

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You might not have fun playing with them, but I'm sure a lot of people do. Like menace13 said, it's not like Show and Tell decks are dominating Legacy now. At least Show and Tell adds some variety to the same Tier 1 decks we see all the time.

If playing against Show and Tell is not fun to you, just change your sideboard to make it fun. If it's against Sneak Attack, board in Humility or even better, Gilded Drake. I guarantee you, it is very fun to drop a Gilded Drake for your opponent's Emrakul. If against Omniscience, put Angel of Despair or O-Ring in your sideboard.

Show and Tell is not getting banned anytime soon. It's simply not putting up the results required for banning consideration.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Instead of banning things, why not unban things?


Frantic Search - Storm based combo is at all time low. I haven't seen High Tide place a significant event. Its not like Frantic Search will be helping Show and Tell decks and Dredge.

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You are out of your mind. frantic search in high tide is a dark ritual+ that draws you two spells. ALWAYS.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Also, I feel that someone physically setting a reminder on their phone to "I told you so" someone on the internet six months in the future is not normal, and should not be condoned or rewarded. It's strange behavior.

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I don't think it is, but I'm willing to think more about this controversy.

I will think about it for exactly three months and let you know if I change my mind.

Putting a reminder in my phone now.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

You are out of your mind. frantic search in high tide is a dark ritual+ that draws you two spells. ALWAYS.

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I know. Its not like High Tide is tier 1.5 right now. Its the same tier as Affinity/MUD/Elves/Merfolk. It has the potential to be a deck to beat but not to a point when its unbeatable. You're basically making a 3-4 turn combo deck half a turn faster.