How do you guys approach all the BUG piles (TNN, Shardless, Aluren, Food Chain)? I really struggle against those.
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How do you guys approach all the BUG piles (TNN, Shardless, Aluren, Food Chain)? I really struggle against those.
You are definitely relying on Wasteland(+Loam) to get you ahead vs BUG. Having the DD-Stage out helps, as besides Diabolic Edict they don't have many ways to deal with it. Toxic Deluge main can help as well especially for TNN versions.
Hey all first time poster, been playing loam about a year now, I've been experimenting with red elemental blast as a post board answer to tnn, leovold and jace, It also adds a little protection against show and tell and just as interaction for countermagic.
I'm also experimenting with an odd configuration of lands creatures and sideboard slots, with a deathrite in the sideboard to come in against bloodmoon, burn decks graveyard strategies and a grim flayer in the main doing a sylvan library on a stick impression. It has strong synergy with Dark confidant life from the loam and punishing fire. I want another set of eyes on this deck just so I can get a second opinion.
Critique is welcome
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4colo...m-tour-guides/
For the REB at least I don't think it worth the two side board slots because we don't have anything to dig for it when we need to like brainstorm decks do if you're looking to use it as a counter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
Niklas kronberger played a "new version" of this deck at the mkm Series.
It looked like he did not play black, but instead blue for flusterstorm, Meddling mage, fow?
Would be nice to hear your reasoning (of course of the anticipated more combo) and how the deck performed :)
Dropped at 5-2 because I had some medical issues and decided to go home. Deck was awesome. It would need someone who has more time than me to test the deck. A friend of mine played it as well and we had a lot of fun. Like Dazing your opponents FOW on your Chalice, hitting a Primeval Titan with Telemin Performance or stealing a Blightsteel Colossus with Dack Fayden. It was great :D
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
4 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Councils Judgement
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Flusterstorm
1 Daze
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
SB
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Wear//Tear
1 Telemin Performance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Firespout
1 Dack Fayden
My reasoning on the REB is that it has a little more versatility in the late game as a top deck than thoughseize, but I see how thoughtseize would generally be better in the hard match-ups for the deck. I'm definitely keeping a close eye on that slot tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitend89
How do you feel about drs in the sideboard vs. In the main/ I've been having trouble identifying the flex slots. As far as I can tell They're the DRS slot, Maze of ith and the maelstrompulse/abrupt decay 4 slot. Is that accurate/ are there any I missed?
Hi everyone,
I'm the confused looking guy who top8'ed the MKM series with (classic) Aggro Loam this weekend. There is also one feature match on twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139161769) covering my only loss in the swiss rounds (ironically against Eldrazi).
I will share my thoughts about the 75 and give you a tournament report. I did not write down any notes so it will be rather short.
Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 badlands
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
I think I played a pretty stock list (mixture of several MTGO results) this weekend. I will just point out the MD flex slots and the SB:
Main:
- No Deathrite Shaman: A lot of people play DS as a one off. In the opening hand he is a sweet card. Drawing him during the game with a Chalice on 1 is weird. Zenith for 1 on T1 (via Mox) is in my eyes either a "I don't have anything better to do" or "my opponent plays Reanimator" action. Often this play is bad anyways when you figure out your opponent is on Storm and you just wasted your Zenith to get Gaddock Teeg.
Long story short: I felt like DS is not that impactful enough and decided to use this slot for Ghost Quarter.- Ghost Quarter: I felt like there will be a lot 4c good stuff lists consisting of a Leovold BUG core. As these decks do not play any basic lands Ghost Quarter essentially functions as Wasteland #5. Mana denial is really strong against all these greedy 4c lists.
- Toxic Deluge: People have different tastes when it comes to the Deluge/Pulse/Vindicate slot. Inspired by MatsOle I started to test Vindicate. I never really liked it. In this new meta Elves, Stoneblade, Delver, DnT and other creature based decks seem to have a comeback and whenever I drew Vindicate I wished it was a Deluge.
Sideboard:
- Planeswalker: I only played one Planeswalker in my SB. I definitely would like to play Chandra, Torch of Defiance again but right now it seems like more Planeswalker in the SB make our better MUs better (i.e. 4c greed lists, Delver, grindy MUs in general) but do not help in worse MUs (i.e. fast combo, Burn, UR Delver). However, I'm not sure if Garruk is the right choice as a Planeswalker (never really saw him this tournament anyways). I'm sure this is also a matter of taste.
- Collective Brutality: Burn/UR Delver and fast combo decks are not a good MU for Aggro Loam. We also struggle with Deathrite Shaman. In my eyes Collective Brutality is a flexible card which can be used as a simple removal spell to handle a problematic creature (DS/Delver/Bob/...), taking a spell (combo piece/burn spell/removal/...) or simply gain some life against burn decks. The beaty is that all these possibilities can be combined by just discarding land cards (or recursion cards like Loam/PFire) to maybe grow our KotR or fill the grave for Cabal Pit. Moreover you can play this as a discard spell over Chalice on 1.
- Reclamation Sage: With the rise of DnT, Stoneblade and Sneak and Show (possibly also Aluren and Food Chain) decks I think we definitely want this card.
- Thoughtseize: In the fear of combo decks I decided to play 2 Thoughtseize as well. Against real combo we also want a T1 disruption which can handle everything. Especially in case of a no-Mox hand a T1 play is very important.
- Containment Priest: I just wanted to have some more hate against Sneak and Show decks.
I think the rest of the SB is pretty stock as well.
Tournament report:
Round #1: Mirror (2-1)
As it is the nature of Aggro Loam mirrors it was a grindfest. I won the 1st game with fast KotR.
Game #2 I started with Leyline but my opponent was able to stick his Bob early and take over the game.
Game #3 I again had a Leyline. After some grinding we both were in top deck mode. Besides my Leyline I had the better draws here so I was able to take over the game.
Round #2: Burn (2-0)
I think my opponent was pretty new to the format. He also seemed nervous. I won game #1 with a big KotR and Lili (for some reason he did not kill her, so he had to discard burn spells).
Game#2 he started with Goblin Guide. I played Brutality with all modes on T1 (living the dream, discarding two lands) followed by a 4/4 KotR T2.
Round #3: Elves (2-0)
Game #1 won Chalice on 1 and a timely Deluge.
Game #2 my opponent started with Leyline but the game was ruled by Gaddock Teeg, Lili and Ethersorn Canonist making it more or less impossible for my opponent to do anything. Yet, my clock was pretty slow (2/2 KotR) and I had to give him a lot of draws. In the end Lili ulti closed out the game.
Round #4: Infect (2-1)
Game #1 I was killed by a T3 Blighted Agent in berserk mode (did not find a removal).
Game #2 I killed his Hierarch and wasted his Topical Island. As it turned out he kept a one lander...
Game #3 I had a T1 Bob into several Decays so I could kill all the Infecters he played. Bob put me ahead from there.
Round #5: Jund (2-1)
Game #1 I had large KotR to grind the game out. Also Chalice on 1 did some little things like countering a cascaded DS.
Game #2 I was overrun by big Goyfs.
Game #3 my opponents mana base was soft and he could not handle my Wasteland/Loam hand. I finally won woth big KotRs.
Round #6: UR Delver (2-0)
We all know that this isn't the best MU. However, game #1 I resolved a Chalice on 1 and apparently got him totally on 1 cmc spells. After wasting one of his two Volcanic Islands the game was over.
Game #2 was also won by a Chalice on 1. He did not find his Smashes and Bedlam Reveller gave him three 1 cmc spells while being smaller than my KotR.
Round #7: Elves [Julian Knab] (2-0)
I honestly don't know how I won game #1. He was on the play, I mulled to five keeping a desperate one lander with Mox, PFire, Grove, Lili and KotR and scryed a land on top. All my draws were perfectly sequenced according to this starting hand so that I was able to fight through 2 active DS and take over the game.
Game #2 I had the nuts. T1 Ethersworn Canonist into T2 PFire with Grove into T3 Chalice on 1.
Round #8: Stoneblade (1-1-1)
Game #1 I lost to a TNN. He had 3 Noble Hierarchs not giving my Lili a chance to do something here. Did not find Deluge.
Game #2 I was able to take the game over with Wastelands.
Game #3 was a grindfest and at some point both of us had our hand full of removal spells but the battlefield was empty. Rec Sage killed his Batterskull which was very relevant.
Round #9: Eldrazi (1-2)
I did not play smooth in Game #1. As I did not know on what deck my opponent was I desiced to not play Mox on T1 but rater fake a BUG deck by just playing Catacombs. Apparently he knew that I was on Loam as he played his Chalice on 0 destroying my plan to play Lili on T2. He countered the Deluge I set up to get rid of 2 TNS and an Endless One. However, I should have known that he had Warping Wail as both TNS did not take my Deluge. With that in mind I shouldn't have wasted his Eye of Ugin but rather his mana producing land as this would have risen my chances that he does not have 2 mana to cast Warping Wail.
Game #2 I won through a very grindy fight.
Game #3 I kept a slow hand (Library, Zenith, Loam,Rec Sage) without Removal or Wastelands. As it turned out he had a super fast start. His board was weak but I was too slow to find answers. Should have mulliganed this hand for sure.
Round #10: 4c Czech Pile [Thomas Mar] (2-0)
Game #1 won a T1 Bob. He did not find an answer to Bob (concerning that he pondered really hard I think I was pretty lucky here) and soon a Chalice on 1 closed the game.
Game #2 I was on the Wasteland/Loam plan. With finally 6 Dual Lands in his graveyard the game was over.
Quarter Finals: BR Reanimator (1-2)
My opponent had a better placement so he was on the play and started with a T1 Griselbrand as he knew I was on Loam and had no disruption.
Game #2 I hade double Leyling into Ooze into Chalice on 1.
Game #3 I did not find a Leyline. My mulligan to 5 has at least a Chalice on 1. Well, he put a T1 Gravetitan on the battlefield...
I hope you found this useful. I felt very comfortable with the deck. However, I was lucky to never face any Sneak and Show decks in 10 rounds :D
The blue version of this deck seems interesting. However, I don't like blue.deck :D
Wow your list looks like a bigger pile than the original list. :tongue: So what were your matchups and what caused you to change to a bant splashing red deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by schniggaz
@Stuhl
Congratulations on your result! How did you end up liking the Collective Brutality? I know that it's something that was previously discussed in this but it never really caught on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
Congrats on your finish! I agree that Deathrite is sort of a trap, and that Garruk is kind of underwhelming. I like having a threat that can be cast off of basic Forest against Blood Moon decks and is resistant to removal, but sometimes I want more than Garruk offers.
The only question I have is whether you missed a third Thoughtseize from the board. I really like Plow against Eldrazi and D&T, but that's about it. I'm currently on the full 4 Thoughtseizes, but will definitely be testing at least one Brutality when I get around to playing Loam again.
Congratz!! And lolz..Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
Congrats Stuhl
And heres an interesting list from the firefly monthly legacy. Maybe this is what 4c loam look like if we wanted blue and no red for Pfire.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15395&d=293679&f=LE
Thanks! Well, whenever I drew it I liked it. I didn't see it very often this weekend but my win against Burn in the 2nd game was definitely on the back of this card. Against Elves it is super strong, killing their dork and taking Decay/NO/Glimpse/Zenith. Against Delver/Deathrite Shaman decks I usually use it as a simple removal spell. You have to be careful concerning Daze. If you use it with discard modes and it gets dazed you are probably behind concerning ressources. Getting it forced is rather "ok" as both players lost effectively 2 cards.Quote:
Congratulations on your result! How did you end up liking the Collective Brutality? I know that it's something that was previously discussed in this but it never really caught on.
Thanks! The irony is that Chandra can be played against Blood Moon in any case, even without basics. I think Chandra is the better Planeswalker on her own. She generates value and is a decent clock which has to be handled. However, Garruk is a long time staple in this deck so there must be a reason (that's what I thought when I decided to play him this weekend :D). I think I will try Chandra in his spot in my next MTGO leagues.Quote:
Congrats on your finish! I agree that Deathrite is sort of a trap, and that Garruk is kind of underwhelming. I like having a threat that can be cast off of basic Forest against Blood Moon decks and is resistant to removal, but sometimes I want more than Garruk offers.
The only question I have is whether you missed a third Thoughtseize from the board. I really like Plow against Eldrazi and D&T, but that's about it. I'm currently on the full 4 Thoughtseizes, but will definitely be testing at least one Brutality when I get around to playing Loam again.
I did not miss a 3rd Thoughtseize. However, I did not play against real combo decks (ANT, Belcher, ...) and just saw one Thoughtseize in my 11 matches against Eldrazi (taking Reality Smasher). I did not board them against Elves. So in the end I boarded my Thoughtseize only against Eldrazi and BR Reanimator (unfortunately I was stomped with T1 fatties here).
In my eyes Collective Brutality somehow functions as mediocre 3rd Thoughtseize if you want so.
By all means, this is not Aggro Loam anymore. No Chalice, no Mox, no KotR. I would rather call ist BUG Depths or something.Quote:
And heres an interesting list from the firefly monthly legacy. Maybe this is what 4c loam look like if we wanted blue and no red for Pfire.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15395&d=293679&f=LE
@schniggaz: I don't really understand the turn to blue cards. Is there any valid eason to do so? Also, playing blue without Brainstorm and FoW seems weird. Can FLusterstorm be played above Chalice on 1 such that only the main spell gets countered and the storm triggers resolve? If no, then this seems also weird.
I think the meta game shift does not necessarily put us in the need of changing things fundamentally. As people pointed out in this thread some slots may change but the core is still a strong deck with a lot of play against the most decks.
Thanks! The irony is that Chandra can be played against Blood Moon in any case, even without basics. I think Chandra is the better Planeswalker on her own. She generates value and is a decent clock which has to be handled. However, Garruk is a long time staple in this deck so there must be a reason (that's what I thought when I decided to play him this weekend :D). I think I will try Chandra in his spot in my next MTGO leagues.
I did not miss a 3rd Thoughtseize. However, I did not play against real combo decks (ANT, Belcher, ...) and just saw one Thoughtseize in my 11 matches against Eldrazi (taking Reality Smasher). I did not board them against Elves. So in the end I boarded my Thoughtseize only against Eldrazi and BR Reanimator (unfortunately I was stomped with T1 fatties here).
In my eyes Collective Brutality somehow functions as mediocre 3rd Thoughtseize if you want so.
[/QUOTE]
Gratz Stuhl.
One of the reasons why Garruk was the one that entered the list was that Chandra was still not around and Shardless was in the meta.
I am currently trying a no planeswalker approach but deciding between the two should resume in, are you expecting more creatures(need of blockers) or just grind...
I usually don't bring walkes against delver(except BUG where I bring Garruk). If it was Chandra I probably wouldn't bring it against BUG Delver.
Against blade either one is good. Both would be better but they are already favourable matchups.
Hi schniggaz! I like you loam with blue. Seems fun.
Can you tell me why you dont plaing in it some Green Sun's Zenith and a single Edric, Spymaster of Trest for card advantage? It seems that without dark confidant it is hard to ahive that goal.
And maybe a deck can use Intuition for p.fire or loam?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
Congratulations on the top 8 Stuhl, I was wondering, Is there a reason you opted for two golgari charm over two toxic deluge? I'm playing 2 deluge in my list and was wondering if the other modes on charm are worth the trade off of being able to kill larger goons like gurmag angler.
This is my list I'd love if you'd take a look and give me some suggestions. Congrats again and may you reveal lands to bob and draw threats.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tour-...-4colour-loam/
The thing about charm is that is good against more decks where you need it than deluge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
Charm is very good against storm to protect dorks/kill goblins(decay on the downswing but we still have to protect teeg from push)
Show/Omnitell to kill the pesky enchantments, especially good on the Show->Canonist->destroy omni
Good against go of turns from elves
Better(IMO) against grixis due to being 2 cmc and instant speed
Well I'm convinced. Most of those cases will matter more than once, and Kotr can tango with gurmag angler anyway. Thanks for the advice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
I play 1 of each in SB, charm is definitely a versatile card. The regenerate mode rarely comes up, but if it does it can be a huge momentum swing. Blocking a fatty with a big knight but saving it from dying as the main example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
Well, as we do not have real lifegain and play Bobs I somehow never wanted two Deluges. Of course, your chances to hit one are bigger but if you draw both you often can only play one. Besides that Golgari Charm hits our True Name Nemesis. In most scenarios Charm and Deluge have the same effect. Sometimes it is annoying that Charm does not hit a Shaman. But I think it is definitely not wrong to play a 1/1 Charm/Deluge split.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
The regenerate mode of Charm is very fringe. I think I used it maybe 1 or 2 times since I play this deck. But it may be a bigger thing if people start to play other UW control decks featuring maybe Supreme Verdict (don't know if this will happen, but who knows).
The destroy enchantment mode is essential and one reason to play this card over 2nd Deluge in my eyes. I feel like there is a rise in Aluren/Food Chain decks and most importantly Sneak and Show. Destroying an enchantment in the right moment can safe you here. And don't forget Blood Moon which for sure will come down in Sneak and Show matches.
If you face an Angler or large Goyf you will most likely prefer Swords/Decay or Lili to get rid of them. In my experience big threats are rather solo on the battlefield. So, if you want to 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 with Deluge one usually prefers to wait for the opponent to slam more threats. I however wouldn't like to do that with a 5/6 Goyf beating me every round.
Well, I'm not sure if Grim Flayer can really replace Sylvan Library. He can be fetched by Zenith, that's nice. But Library gives you so much more advantages in my eyes. Despite that Library doesn't die to Fatal Push and Bolts. With my first activation of Library I often draw all cards which puts me far ahead in terms of ressources.
I don't really see the advantage of Faerie Macabre over Leyline of the Void. Ok, if you draw Faerie it's better, however, a good reanimator player can play around a singleton exile effect. Also, your Dredge and Lands MU will be far more difficult. I'd rather play Surgical Extraction here.
I personally don't like Thalia. She is only good against Storm decks. Ethersworn Canonist as more applications than Thalia in the SB. Besides that we play very much non-creature spells ourself often making Thalia awkward.
I'd rather play a Choke if I wanted more hate against blueish decks (which honestly isn't necessary). Probably a Planeswalker or 3rd Sword/Thoughtseize fits better in that spot.
But overall your list seems fine (I mean, if you make -1 Flayer, +1 Library you end up with my list from above :D).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
Thats totally reasonable, I think I will swap the deulge for a charm, If just for a little more sped on my removal. May as well net deck the top 8 deck :P
I find that the synergy between flayer, bob, loam, knight and pfire is worth it, but you are right that it is less pure advantage than library. I'll probably go back to the library as is but I definitely think people should try playing one as it feeds itself and can really enable the deck while filtering your draws.
I see your point with thalia for sure though, I'm looking at garruk though and feeling a little underwhelmed, my kingdom for 4 loyalty on garruk.
Is the general consensus that chandra should be the planeswalker that goes in nowadays? What do you think of tireless tracker in that spot? Thanks for taking the time to help.
edit: I quite like faerie macabre as I find most reanimator players are more conditioned to leyline/surgical and rip and almost always play my faerie macabre hands as though I'm holding surgical, plus macabre has the upside of blanking their exhume even if they have two creatures, and it is uncounterable. I'm willing to punt dredge as it is not an extremely popular archetype where I play, plus the only real threat that frightens me post board is the dread return plays they have, where faerie macabre is astounding. for the rest we have removal and creatures to beat up on two twos and maze for grave trolls. Not trying to be argumentative just stating my reasoning,
Tireless Tracker could be a thing. However, I am a fan of non-creature threats and non-decayable threats. That said, Planeswalkers. I don't if Garruk, Chandra or Ajani is better. Well, probably Jace the Mindsculptor is better than all, but that is another story :D
I really think the Planeswalker slot is a personal style choice. I think MatsOle i.e. started to play Ajani to have +1 on the mana denial plan.
I could see the Grim Flayer in the Deathrite Shaman spot. In my list this spot is currently occupied by Ghost Quarter (inspired by MatsOle :D).
So what you are saying is splash underground sea for post board Jace :P
I see your point Ajani is interesting, but I don't have one right now so I'll probably stick to garruk. I've always had trouble identifying the flex slots in the deck, how important do you think the GQ is?
I'm very tempted to just swap Ghost quarter for Flayer, perhaps drop a golgari charm or a hatebear, maybe even the garruk slot since garruk shines against BUG style decks and land destruction seems the most reliable way to hate them out of a game
edit: Made some changes
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tour-...-4colour-loam/
Well, no, it was more a reference to Patrick Chapin's super hit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnYhG_ekoH8 :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
Man, a pay raise, true love, and a top 8 title. Good thing Jace can't be abrupt decayed. Maybe I should take a Jace to ask my boss for a raise.
"That card cost how much?"
"75 USD"
"I only just now realized how little I actually wanted to know."
Sthul I play your list, except for the sideboard:
1 reclamation sage
1 garruk relentless
1 collective brutality
1 toxic deluge
3 leyline of the void
2 swords to plowshares
2 containment priest
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 ethersworn canonist
1 chandra tod
1 golgari charm
Do you think the two thoughtseizes are essential in this meta? Is Sneak n Show a winnable mu?
I'd say so, maybe even 3 if you aren't playing Containment Priest. I think the top 3 right now are elves, delver and storm with sneak being a close 4th and thoughtseize is great in 3 of those matchups. The matchup is certainly winnable but it's very difficult....Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldrazi Grandfather
What do you take out against elves to make room for the thoughseize if you don't mind me asking? I usually do not bring them.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I personally cut the slower cards, things like library, loams and karakas which I feel is usually pretty dead against them. The priority I feel is establishing a threat and just keeping them suppressed with as much disruption as possible as opposed to just trying to really grind it out. Pull the rug out from under their feet and then throw punishing fires at anything that moves on their side of the board.
If we can get the table hellbent then it makes it extremely unlikely that they can even try to grind. Even if they do establish a board state like wirewood symbiote+elvish visionary, it becomes very vulnerable to any top deck removal at sorcery speed and hand disruption from lili or just a good old fashioned clunky late game thoughtseize after you get them to block+bounce.
-1 Centaur VinecrasherQuote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Life from the Loam
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Maze of Ith
+2 Toxic Deluge
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+1 Golgari Charm
Now that I look at it I might just be overboarding. Vinecrasher, shaman, ooze and maze should be pretty self explanatory. I don't like Liliana in this matchup as at best she gets rid of maybe 1 of their many creatures, so it might look odd that i'm bringing in Chandra but I think that having a removal spell alongside a card draw is worth the 4 cmc. Loam and Library are just too slow and i'm okay with losing a slightly clunkier sorcery speed removal spell (Pulse) in favor of board wipes.
I have yet to change my list post top ban.
I actually like ooze quite a bit in the matchup. usually the matchup goes into lockdown if we survive and then we need something to out grind where ooze is stellar.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
@Treacleson I advise at not taking karakas since we are low on white mana and landing those canonists/swords are very important.
That sounds reasonable. For me it just comes down the surviving the initial onslaught (the first couple of turns) and if I make it past there I feel very favored to win the matchup and I felt like ooze just didn't help me do that. I'm probably very spoiled in that I play against the same 2 elves players all the time so I tend to know how they play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
I wouldn't take out Karakas in the matchup either. The white is important and every once in a while you get to protect your teeg from a removal spell or even rarer bounce a Leovold or Ruric Thar.
Hmm fair enough. I haven't been punished for it yet, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have the extra white source thank you for the advice.
Has Centaur vine crasher been good? I saw that card months ago and it took all my friends to talk me out of trying it, that said there was a lot of miracles around at the time. It seems rather spicy in a less STP/terminus heavy meta.
How was Goyf is one of the biggest questions I have here. I know you're not in black so you can't run Bob, but I don't see the meta shaping up to be that great for Goyfs right now either (outside of chumping things that p fire doesn't kill well).Quote:
Originally Posted by schniggaz
Tracker is something I really like, but I just can't stand having so many 3 drops when combined with kotr and lily. I know I have been brewing around a bit with BUG loam variants, and for a while I adopted Ancient Tomb into those lists. Could we get to a point where our mana base just isn't stretched, and we can reliably wrap that into a T1 tracker with mox?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
DRS as a singleton has over performed for me. My testing the past few days has been insane and I never want to trim that card again.
Can't really say, I don't think I have gotten enough games. I do like him so far, he allows you to trample over pyroman tokens, tnn, griffins and other random creatures. In general i'll board him out vs any deck that plays swords to plowshares, i've yet to make changes postban and people playing all the fun decks they couldn't play while miracles was a thing makes it hard to test. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
I'd be interested in a spicy ancient tomb mox diamond brew. The issue there is our mana costs are so greedy we're doing things like curving teeg into lili and then punishing fire I feel like if the deck wanted to play tombs and the like it would probably require cutting atleast one colour and turning the shell into something a little more stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocley
This sorta removes the play from the deck, theres potential in some kind of r/g tracker, punishing fire, chalice, thorn of amethyst style strategy.
edit: and I don't think I've seen city of traitors in a deck with loam in it so that could be nifty.
Edit: @CptHaddock
I totally get it I'm kinda feelin the same about grim flayer, some games it eats removal, other games its a 4/4 trampling draw three on combat damage.
But atleast the board wipes cost 3 mana now.
If it does work, I think it would have to be in something like the Bant-red list that was also referred to. That has a lot less stress on the mana base (Jace is UU but the mana works out so much nicer with less of a dependency on u than b). Especially because youre basically just GW splashing for UU and RR (which is P Fire's real cost). I'll have to actually test the Bant-red list first to see how much that is worth going towardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Treacleson
So today someone had another 5-0 in the league. First of all, it is very nice to see this deck keeps getting some solid results. Lot of 5-0 finishes and top 8's, even at large events like last weekend in Frankfurt.
Ok so, interesting about this list is that it ran 2 different copies of the new bicycle lands. Not sure if Blackmetal666 is also on the Source, but i would be happy to hear about the new cycle lands.
How do you guys normally board for the mirror match? I always feel like I have more to bring in than actually take out.
The givens for taking out are probably:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Gaddock Teeg
Is there anything else that you usually take out?
I'm assuming we want to bring in the following:
# Leylines
# Toxic Deluge
# Walkers
# Swords
# Other removal spells
Well, it may sound weird but I usually board out 2 PFires. It is just depressing having PFire while facing Leyline and most of the time you hit just 4 creatures with it, namely Bobs. As we anyway board in 2 Swords and Deluge and stuff I think PFire is the weakest removal we have. Of course, the ability to kill Planeswalkers is great but in my opinion all the SB we bring in are better than PFire.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
If I'm sure my opponent does not play the DD combo I also may board out Karakas.
I also bring in Rec Sage and the Golgari Charms. They hit Leyline and you never want to give your opponent a Bob or Library. Charm handles both. Taking a Mox with Rec Sage is also very strong in my opinion. But primarily I board him against Leyline. But not always, maybe it depends on "on the draw" or "on the play".