Printable View
I think the mage can go. Nahiri plays its roll a bit better. Fwiw I've found Burrenton Forge Tender/worhip to be the anti red combo. But i play 3 tutors md.
And that's why i was questioning the nahiri/Emrakul and RiP/helm. If others are going to be doing the combo, life miracles for example, rip/helm is an insta kill and trumps Emrakul. Maybe i just don't wanna see the day where painter run an Emrakul :cry:
IMO Emrakul doesn't have a place in Painter, but Nahiri still does. She functions very well without a finisher for her ult, and we'd rather not have a clunky draw, especially emra which messes with the yard.
I've never really tried RiP/Helm combo as I believe a 1/1 split combo is fragile, and multiple RiPs is worthless (so is Helm without RiP).
But if Miracles starts packing Emrakuls it's worth considering for sure.
I usually bring in my one of rest in peace when I am playing tarmogoyf strategies. Would you bring in multiple rest in peace on this matchup and the helm as wel? If so do you side out your grindstones?Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Nahiri is great but she really doesn't deal directly with chalices and equipment. It seems silly to remove all artifact hate in lieu of nahiri. I don't know how you can say she has the same function as mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
What goyf matchups? I think the only time I bring in RIP against goyf strategies is against jund and rug delver. Against BUG decks I think that goblin welder is one of our best cards and it seems a little silly to shut him down.Quote:
Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken
I don't think you want the package against delver decks but I would probably bring it in against BGx decks. It's a win condition that is hard for them to interact with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I'm biased because I play a md vandal. I play that card in the 75 instead of Mage because of the mana requirements. Nahiri is still good under a moon. Mage pales under a moon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@Jandax u estimate vandal better then duergar hedge-mage? (i play with 3 Plateau and 6 fetchlands for more white sources and more shuffling, so i'm not totally sure about that...)
Well I was basing that off of the standard mana base. With more white sources I totally see it living up to its potential
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think it's fair to argument that Vandal performs better against chalice, as it can drop T2 without SSG/Petal, and functions with ex. 1 mountain and x sols. It's not too often Hedge won't be able to trigger, but it does happen.
So in this regard, I'd say Vandal fits better main if you drop Jaya because atm Eldrazi is a thing and you'll probably need a reliant chalice-cracker.
But duergar's ability is generally better against fair decks, and would fit better in sb between the two.
I agree to all that and want to add that i expect to play against a bit of X/2's and blue combo and control. Mostly the fair decks where i want to be playing more mono red style, slamming moons and what not.
I would sooner run 1-2 engineered explosives in the main then start playing vandal. Vandal, while fast at getting rid of chalice, often rots in your hand on account of no "may" in is text. Mage on the other hand can be deployed as and when needed.
I will not argue that a chalice from eldrazi is bad for us but honestly, we are 75% favoured in that match up and chalice on 1 doesn't stop any of our bombs against them. I have won ALL of my games when they start with chalice on 1.
My focus would be directed to gaining % against miracles not something we have one of the best match ups against.
Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
Just wanna point out that I assumed pre-board while comparing, and personally I've never swayed from Duergar in SB (and Jaya main atm).Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
And ofc, eldrazi is not at all a bad matchup. But I gotta ask tho, how do you win through T1 chalice without landing welder/grindstone first?
My only thoughts would be a planeswalker, which isn't too normal main, or Jaya. That's why I stated Vandal main could be fair if you drop Jaya, but I wouldn't play him otherwise.
Playing two fiery confluence in the board instead of two sulfur elemental. Fiery confluence is a thing. Might want to go up to three. Still open to bringing sulfur elemental back. Oh and the NJ Devils got Taylor Hall. Totally unrelated but fuck yeah.
Yeah, I've been playing three fiery confluence in my board now and totally dig them. I wasn't a huge fan of sulfur elemental. It wasn't bad but confluence does so much more. I have probably used for the artifact destruction more than anything. Although you do have to be careful about making sure all targets are still in play at resolution. I had a game where I did two damage to all creatures and killed an artifact. In response my opponent killed the artifact and confluence fizzled.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah you blew me the fuck out with Fiery Confluence on modo yesterday... (I was the one playing Taxcake). Feels like a deece card.Quote:
Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken
But if at least one target is still legal it will resolve and just have no effect on the illegal targets no?Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Yeah, you only have to be careful if you pick 2x wipe and an artifact destroy, anything else should be quite safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken
Depending on the state your outcome wasn't to bad. Still a 2 for 1 and they had to get rid of their artifact removal. As long as the board state didn't kill you it isn't a bad outcome.
Well, it was against Death & Taxes and it should have been like a 5 for 1 do it was not great for me. Luckily, I had a second one in my hand and was able to wipe the board the next turn so it didn't cost me the game. It was a heads up play by my opponent though and i just wanted to point that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uroborian
Nothing else going on on this board?? So I caught a guy on TWITCH the other day who was streaming painter and he was playing with Nahiri and Emrakul in the board. Anyone else catch this or is this guy on this board at all? Just wondering how that is working out. I know most people on here aren't big fans of the strategy but has anyone else actually tested it?
Hey, I don't get that one. The ruling of the confluence says:Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
[...]
11/4/2015 If all targets for the chosen modes become illegal before the Confluence resolves, the spell will be countered and none of its effects will happen. If at least one target is still legal, the spell will resolve but will have no effect on any illegal targets.
In my understanding the szenario you described should result in you sweeping the board and only the third mode of the confluence fizzling or what am I getting wrong?
edit: the moment I posted this I got it - you only have one target, hence it fizzles... my bad...
I'm interested if anyone has tested Monastery Mentor in Imperial Painter. I've been playing one copy in the main deck for a little while now and it seems pretty good, especially when you board in more removal. It might be a good alternative win condition while opponents are focusing on disrupting the Painter's Servant and Grindstone combo. Monastery Mentor also helps turn some of the deck's dead draws, like multiple copies of Sensei's Divining Top and Grindstone, into tokens.
P.S.
It's always a pleasure to see you stream, Jack.
That's really funny. I was just watching the Vs video today on SCG and was thinking about the exact same thing. How many times have you searched for it with a recruiter? That's one of the most appealing things for me as well. I do think that you would probably want to side into more instants in order to protect it from something like a bolt, etc. Mentor certainly does combo well with multiple tops though. I think it's worth testing. Doesn't really fit with our game plan but you could certainly improve the beat down plan plan against decks like 12 post. He also stabilizes the battlefield quickly as well which could be very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I caught the end of Jack's stream last night. Sick win against miracles. Switched to two nahiri in the board instead of 2 ajani and it did a lot of work. Between nahiri and fiery confluence I pretty much stole my two wins against monastery miracles last night. Game 2 my opponent had me locked out with counter top but I just kept beating down with my line painter servant until I get him down to 8 life from all his fetching. He terminus' my lone painter and I cast fiery confluence dealing 6 damage to him. Next turn I cast a nahiri and I'm able to exile his counterbalance and bolt for the win. The following game I'm able to turn 2 nahiri with monkey blast back up and he double forces pretty much depleting all his resources. We are both in top deck mode. I'm able to ultimate a nahiri to get the grindstone after recruiting for painter. He attempts to terminus but I was able to blast it.
Question: against monastery miracles do most people here side out moons? I usually keep 2 in and side out the rest (magus included). Against legends I typically just side out magus.
Mentor has been spoken about before, but if I recall the subject was dropped pretty quickly. It's simply not as effective as in miracles due to our lack of Force, Brainstorm etc to trigger it in response to removal, so if they got removal we'll probably just net 1 token. We got blasts, but it's not a reliable answer as we'd need painter out (and you'd only recruit one of them).
Top-Top still works tho, so it may still be a recruitable 1 or 2-turn clock if they miss removal, which doesn't seem too shabby. I've considered it in board as I don't see the need of alt wincon main (except Jaya) but never really tested it, and atm I'm digging Nahiri for that purpose :)
@bob: yeah, I do the exact same thing with blood moon. I cut down the numbers but maybe leave one or two in. They will search for basics but moon still helps shut down shuffle effects with later fetch lands which is helpful.
@morcrux: totally agree. Mentor might be a cute idea as a one or two of if you are looking to clock you opponent quickly. The problem is it still isn't great against Miracles due to terminus. But might actually not be terrible as another board stabilizer against Grixis or similar things. It's utility is somewhat limited for us though. And yes, Nahiri is definitely my favorite "alt win" against miracles as well. I understand it doesn't actually win the game but it's utility is quite amazing.
Speaking of which, still no word on the streamer who plays Nahiri with emrakul in the board. I know to speak of it is heresy on this bird but I'm just curious how it has worked for people who have actually tried it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The streamer was Rudy Briksza. He was using my list. I didn't ask how emrakul was for him but she's been good for me. Being able to just end grindy games where my opponents have been stockpiling on removal has been good. Also it's randomly won me same games against omno/sneak
Do you side out your bridges on that plan or just try to skate around it with welder or a blast or something? Also, how many Nahiri's are you playing and how are you splitting them? All in board or any main?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
I feel a good place to start in improving our miracles match up. I know I've been favoured against it in many tournaments, but it just feels like I'm such an underdog when it really matters pushing for top 8.
After board the miracles deck is so stacked when it comes to artifact, enchantment and creature removal. They run fine under a blood moon, sure you limit there fetching but unless your cutting them off white mana your going to lose.
The PlainsWalker route via Koth, chandra ,ajani, and now nahari seem to be the ideal route.
The fact that nahari gets you out of the counter balance lock is huge.
Ajani is great at locking down white mana while a blood moon is in play but your game plan should not be attempting to set up a complex board state everytime.
Is Grindstone and blood moon things we really want to be doing against them? Really we can run 8 Pyroblast effects, counter balance removal, creature removal and plainswalkers and just out value them.
What would a transformational sideboard look like to you?
Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
Were there any painters at scg Worcester? Two other decks running blood moon made top8 and while painter may not match up well against them I feel like the decks they played against match up pretty well. If only we were able to run chalice without shutting off key parts of our deck.
In regards to miracles. I've been running into a lot of legends and I find the best way to victory is to run a recruiter chain keeping one in your hand. Just beat down while they try to stabilize. When they terminus start the chain again. Good thing about recruiter is it is not card disadvantage like e tutor. So while you are beating down and casting recruiters you can also cast combo pieces or keep in hand for when they waste all their removal on your 1/1's. I recently went 4 turns with 3 recruiters a painter, and a grindstone on board. Got him down to an extremely low amount of life and then idk if he misplayed or what but he council's judgments tapping all white and I activate the grindstone in response.
SB was a bit different after he brought in his two mentors for the entreat the Angels. Nahiri and fiery confluence were Allstars again during the match up even though I still lost the round.
I was so close to comboing in game 3 that I kept trying to do that because he wasn't taking a lot of damage from his fetches. I feel like if I had just went the recruiter chain plan that game it might have been a different outcome. It's pretty cool when your opponent feels the need to stp a 1/1 that you already got your value out of.
one side, one main, one emmy in the board. I've been taking bridge out against miracles so it's a non issue there. I haven't lost the mu since trying this approach (but it's a small sample size) Against other decks where I want the second nahiri, I've been debating if I want the emmy or not, and when I do bring it in I usually have to rely on welder for my bridges, but having one dead card isn't the worst thing in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
According to the metagame breakdown a painter player made it to day two although I did not see them. I fell a win short at 6-3 after getting paired down and losing the last round to an x-1-2.
rd 1 - miracles, 2-0 - mvp:nahiri
rd 2 eldrazi 2-0 - mvp ensnaring bridge
rd 3: ??? idr but I won
rd 4 eldrazi 2-0
rd 5 elves 2-0 - mvp blood moon (took it out game two but g1 he was stuck on one forest that I blew up)
rd 6 1-2 burn - (she played joe lossett rd 7 on camera)
rd 7 burn 2-1 - mvp, my opponent's lack of skill.
rd 8 rug delver - 1-2 punted g1 by going for it on my turn, getting stifled and leaving him with the mana on his turn to brainstorm into bolt so I die. That being said he could still brainstorm in response to activation, find the bolt, and kill me on his upkeep, but there's a reasonably high chance he doesn't brainstorm there.
rd 9 elves - 2-1, lost with a top out and grindstone being the 4th card in my deck after my previous attempts to combo being abrupt decayed.
Yeah, didn't see a lot of painter being represented at the Open. Seeing two other blood moon decks in the top 8 was interesting though.
I did manage to take down our local SCG IQ with Painter this weekend. Now I get to go play standard and modern at the invitational in December! [emoji15](not excited).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What are people's take on Jund and Nic Fit? Been running into it a bunch online and now in paper too. I bring in the burn and extra bridge and side out 2 REB's, Jaya, etc. how do other people attack these match ups?
Hey guys, I played Painter in Worcester hoping to overcome my 16th place at SCG Philly but sadly crashed and burned after making day 2.
I liked the list I ran before and didn't have a ton of time for testing outside a couple weekly legacy events (which I did well in) so my only changes where to the SB with -1 Thorn of Amethyst, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Koth of the Hammer.
Day 1 I beat:
Storm
Burn
Mono-Black Reanimator
Dredge
Dragon Stompy
RW Stompy
Shardless BUG
Lost to:
Miracles
UW Helm/RIP combo
Day 2 I beat:
Elves
Burn
Lost to:
Lands
Infect
Miracles
UW Stoneblade/Countertop
As you can see UW decks were my bane, although against the Helm/RIP deck I simply felt like I got very unlucky and against the Stoneblade deck I played extremely poorly as it was Round 15 and I was tired and tilted. The miracles matches always felt like they were just barely out of reach. I've generally done well against the deck in the past but I definitely need to practice and improve this matchup for next time.
The loss to lands was mulliganing both games and never seeing a Blood Moon while my opponent had a fast combo and Krosan Grip. Losing to Infect was also sad as I thought I had G1 locked with a Blood Moon and Bridge but Noble Hierarch + Become Immense + Beserk got me. G2 I resolved a turn 1 Moon but opponent has basic forest and two Nobles in opener plus enough gas to kill me quickly.
Overall I still like the deck and will probably try out the white splash once I get a few Plateaus, although I still think the mono red version is fine. Miracles is definitely the biggest problem as I felt like my other losses can be chalked up to variance and poor play on my part. I think I might try to fit the 8th blast and another Koth into the board for now.
For me these are two completely different MUs. I play jund like I play Shardless BUG, my first priority is to drop a blood moon. Unless you get out a moon or can combo crazy fast, you will get out-tempo'd. If you can shut off 2/3+ of their deck, obviously things get a little easier. Nic fit I try to combo ASAP. I agree with the sideboarding though. Jaya is pretty bad in both MUs. I typically will take out some # of moons against Nic fit because they have so many basics and can have a stable land base early with veteran explorer. I do side in some grave hate against them (mainly RiP) in order to shut off some of their lines or acceleration with explorer. Burn is definitely decent against both.Quote:
Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As you may or may not be able to guess by the frequency of my posts recently, I've been playing this deck a lot lately. Two further observations I have made recently...
1. fiery confluence is so good that I can hardly contain myself. I have won 3 straight matches strictly due to that card. My last match my opponent is playing some bant goyf deck and he has beat me down to 2 and I stabilize with a bridge. He is at 12 due to fetches, and a few hits with the Grid (which also takes out a Noble Hierarch he is trying to equip with a jitte). I have no cards and top deck confluence...I decide to just hit the dome since if he deals with my bridge I'm dead anyway. Down to 6. Next top deck, confluence for the win...12 damage in 2 turns. I have probably killed about 10 Jaces and armies of mentor/tokens with the card as well. So good.
2. Emrakul sucks. I tried playing a copy of Emrakul in the SB with Nahiri and it was awful. Nahiri is still so good and I have ultimated the same Nahiri 3 times in a game against Miracles, but STILL LOST due to Terminus. Switched back to 1 copy of Mindslaver and have played against Miracles once and ultimated Nahiri into Mindslaver and in response brought it back with welder and opponent immediately scooped. Still open to other possible Nahiri targets FTW but for now I guess I will stick to Mindslaver.
Ok. That's all for now. Really digging this deck again. Was playing Eldrazi for a while but that deck is garbage. Not sure what my second pet deck will be yet now. Probably should try to cast brainstorms for a change. :rolleyes:
Card is straight gas. Every game where I cast it goes something like this, I put the card on the stack, opponent reads the card, opponent goes "oh" and the game swings heavily in my favor. I am very happy that they printed a card that can act as multiple burn, artifact destruction and a board wipe spell all at the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
So as a bit of an aside on recent discussions, do you guys bring in burn against aggro loam?
I think fiery confluence is one of the greatest things to happen to this deck in a while. I recently went up to 3 in the board. I really want to include it in the main. I've found jaya and magus to be underwhelming recently. Thinking of maybe moving one or both to the side. Revoker has been mehhhh recently too. I feel like revoker is good if you play more than one of them. With just one I think it's kinda eating up a slot for say a third ensnaring bridge (I play one main one side).
For aggro loam I usually side in all burn and rip and take out Jaya, 2 REB, magus, maybe 1 or two e tutors.
So I played a legacy tournament in Sweden yesterday, 56 players, ended up 3rd. Yay, Tundra for me :P
This is the list I played:
Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
3 Mountain
4 Goblin Welder
1 Manic Vandal
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Painter's Servant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
Sideboard:
4 Sudden Shock
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
1 Magus of the Moat
Round 1
Against Esper Green (Made that up)
Stock Esper list with the slight DRS splash, plus some sideboard cards
Won 2-1, due to an excited me with a hand that was turn 2 combo, but dead to his turn 1 StP :/
It's been a long time since I've played that deck and I felt a little empty inside, when he started pulling basic lands from the top of his library. But in the end I won and moving on.
Round 2
Playing against Storm (ANT), he's on the play and game 1 is him finding all the mana he needs, but's missing that 1 tutor to kill me. Revoker on LED, followed by a moon a few turns later seals the deal.
Game 2 is almost like playing MUD against him, turn 1 Tomb into Revoker, turn 2 Trinisphere. Which sets me up for a slow beating, into playing Rest in Peace.... Yummy :D 2-0
Round 3
We were 4 guys taking the train to this tournament and know I'm playing the first one.
My friend was playing a new take on the Miracle deck called BDM (Big Dick Miracles - for some random reason) which is 4 Monastery Mentors and the rest is stock - almost
My draws were a lot better than his, which gives me a 2-0 victory and a very good feeling so far.
Round 4
BUG Delver!
I always get a good feeling when I'm sitting across the table for this deck. Over the years I've taken a few different strategies on this MU, but this time, I took my time ingame. I actually made a mistake, searching up and playing a Goblin Welder with my opponent having an active DRS :/
Long story short I had my PS removed from the yard, but right before he could untap and kill me, I saw a PS with my top, draw it, he can't do anything about it and now we're 4-0
Round 5
ID
Round 6
ID into top 8 ;)
1/8 finals
During the last round of swiss, I wrote down what the other contenders for top 8 were playing. This paid of when I sat down for the quarters, being the higher seed (Spellcheck?) I draw 7 cards, which had a turn 1 Blood Moon. This against a Jund version of Scapeshift is probably really good, which it is.
Game 2 isn't much more different: A quick moon and it really wasn't the most difficult of MU :)
1/4 finals
So, I beat BUG Delver earlier in the tournament, this time it's another friend, HJ Goddik. He's a beast on different versions of BUG Delver which is what happens to me :/
Not enough lands, and he has counters for all the Blood Moons in the 2 games we play. Losing always sucks, but when your only loss of the day is to a friend and that same friend wins the whole thing, you really can't be THAT mad :D
I know it's not the best TR you can have, but it's a start :D
Gratz for the nice run. Intresting choice to replace all the ensnaring bridge plan with the magus of the moat. I'm curious to know if you would make any change to your main deck or to the side after this event !Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
Well, in order to be able to reliably get MoatyMagus down against Eldrazi (Which he's primarily ment for), I think you have to go a little more white :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouille
Also, I'm still missing the 4th Recruiter :D
Other than that, I'm fairly happy with it... Maybe a revoker more OR trying a more Revoker oriented build :D
Magus seems like a really weird choice if you wanted to metagame against eldrazi. I think the matchup is already pretty good but if you wanted more for the matchup I would rather up the number of ensnaring bridges and play more artifact destruction main (which you already did with manic vandal). Magus just seems awkward, his 4 mana cost is fine but the WW is pretty questionable for our deck to get. He's also an 0/3 which gets hit by every removal spell in the format even something like dismember and jitte, both of which I have seen eldrazi play.Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
Regardless congrats on your success. It's always nice to see people do well with painter.