[Primer/Deck] Pox

I see you cut to only 2 Rituals...with higher cost cards they become even more important. I think if there is a concession to playing further up the curve we also have to concede that mana acceleration is needed. Pox is mana-hungry as it is, even if you top out at 3, simply because we kill our own lands and Wasteland is really a spell.

On a positive note, I traded into a Liliana the Lost Hope this weekend, excited to see what it does for the deck. Still haven't gotten Karns, and at this point I might just wait out the Standard season until it rotates.

Lost hope is used in the sideboard by some, have i seen. Myself I keep it in the main since i have one or two slots available. It is quite a lock to have both in play at the same time. LotV is generally better, but LtLH is better in specifik matches. Lost Hope also help upping the threat count in the deck which is a plus.

Where I'm short on Veils right now I'll probably fill in the gaps with Lost Hope and a big Pox.

yeah i think more rituals might have been better. originally had Lake of the Dead in there but it felt so clunky. The best games with the deck where when it played like regular pox tbh tho. Liliana, Death's Majesty is cool but really just a token generator and way expensive for her effect without Braids to capitalize off it.

Maybe if I went all in on the Lake plan and played more Grave Titans and Wurmcoils or something... I dunno. I'm disenchanted, prolly go back to my Necropolis Fiends and Cursed Scrolls :rolleyes::wink::cool:

LiLH is a beast, I agree that I'd rather do something like 3-1 Lotv/LiLH than just 4x Lotv. That said I'd rather do 4-1, since Veil is just so good. Big Pox as a Lili replacement is interesting... I'd think you'd want something repeatable to lock them out, maybe Bottomless Pit/Necrogen Mists for cards or Scroll for creatures. Big Pox should do the trick though.



Btw, did y'all know that Japanese Cursed Scrolls have a bizarre misprint where they have a 2 cmc activation cost?? Kinda weird.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Oy8AA...26s/s-l300.jpg

Don't know if I want to play it and explain to my opponent every time and have them think I'm trying to cheat or just jam it anyway for misprint cool factor... so many decisions in life

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Btw, did y'all know that Japanese Cursed Scrolls have a bizarre misprint where they have a 2 cmc activation cost?? Kinda weird.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Oy8AA...26s/s-l300.jpg

Don't know if I want to play it and explain to my opponent every time and have them think I'm trying to cheat or just jam it anyway for misprint cool factor... so many decisions in life

---

Pairs best with german Rath's Edge. But yeah I wouldn't play either. Confusing opponents with misprints doesn't add to the fun for me.

Currently running 3/2 split of Liliana of the Veil and Liliana Last Hope . Very Glad we can run both on field thanks to rules. I'm guessing LtLH would be extremely dangerous in a Contamination Pox flavor or even Stax Pox!! ooh the ideas :eek::eek::cool: Liliana, Death's Majesty maybe incorporated in a "Godzilla Pox" Shell with gigantic cmc threats of Zombie type. Grave Titan comes to mind alongside Scourge of Nel Toth. I too shall wait on Karn. Considering Liliana's many flavors and versions, I don't think a card drawing token generator is necessary. Just trade less resources for your foes' cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nupert

Pairs best with german Rath's Edge. But yeah I wouldn't play either. Confusing opponents with misprints doesn't add to the fun for me.

---

yeah prolly won't play them. but they're cool nonetheless





@OmniStrata - if you like 'Godzilla Pox' check out this list, i linked it before but it's pretty slick: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18983&d=319416&f=LE. Lake of the Dead my friend. Tho i disagree on Karn, he's proven to be a real beast for me, not least because he comes in with virtually 6 loyalty.




We got another top8 up there! We're officially as cool as Food Chain and Goblins right now. The latest is again from Clayton Levi, who has 3 top8s with Pox in the last couple months, pretty impressive. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19133&d=320904&f=LE

4 Bloodghast. 4 Sinkhole. So more aggressive than many lists, though not as aggressive as Hardcore's builds. No Fetches for the Bloodghasts, which is interesting. Sideboard seems kind of standard. Not sure what else to say, the discard stuff seems more or less standard, though very few 1cmc discard.

That's a list I can definitely go with. It would be nice to read a report from Mr. Levi one of these days. Pox harder, people!

Was this list ever discussed?

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15716&d=296249&f=LE

I've been looking for a giggles list and this covers my entire wish list and santa's naughty list, too...

I'm 2 Abyss short but I can work at getting one.
Gonna try this version but maybe shove Karn in there somewhere...

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tabernacle ? why not with urborg, too
4 Wasteland

1 Nether Spirit

1 Beseech the Queen
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Smallpox
1 POX or Karn
1 worm harvest or Karn

4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestack
1 The Abyss

SIDEBOARD
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Plague
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Leyline of the Void

Thought I should post my current list. It's good vs Delver and Miracles so far. Obvs very bad against the one chap running MD Lingering Souls and Young Pyromancer..... and Burn. Urgh... Burn.

Lands
10 Swamp
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thought Seize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Collective Brutality
1 Masterminds Acquisition*

Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Artifacts
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Nether Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
2 Bitterblossom
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Pithing Needle

Thoughts

I like the maindeck a lot. The Ensnaring Bridges are great, as is NEW Liliana. Collective Brutality gives the deck a much needed direct kill spell, life gain and discard. I might try a third.
Cutting Sinkhole was heart breaking but the right decision. With all these Deathrites running about and how low the ground (CMC wise) most Legacy decks are now just makes the card not very good. It doesn't even punish 4C control and is a pretty shoddy top deck (something the next card is trying to fix)
*Masterminds Acquisition. Never cast it, and tbh its never going to be any good. No idea why I'm playing this. Oh wait, I'm playing Pox, making poor decisions with deck building is in my nature :wink:. This should probably be something impactful like another Planeswalker or a clock like Nether Spirit. Interesting aside - Mastermind's Acquisition 'might' be playable if you are running free spells in your deck. Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out and Massacre come to mind. As it is, taking two turns to do anything useful is just not good enough in Legacy. And if the opponent is allowing us that time we have probably got them locked under Liliana anyway!
The manabase/spell lands, has been REALLY good. Only been mana screwed on a mulligan and poor keep. The 4 Urborgs offset the 2 Tabernacles nicely and they give us so many extra turns against fast aggressive hands or decks that can go wide of our 141 sac effects. 6 Legendary lands hasn't been a problem with all the Smallpox and Liliana we run.

The Sideboard I am also happy with. Lots of cards to bring in vs Miracles, a good range of sweepers and with the MD Bridges we have a little more space for a bit of spice (looking at you Abyss). It is probably worth looking at improving the Burn, UR Delver matchup in some way as this kind of deck always seems to be the Achilles heel of Pox (other than the fact we rely on top decks and sometimes just self implode).

Hope you find something useful in my list and if you have the cards you should definitely give the core of the deck a go.

Sib :smile:

since we are posting lists right now, not quite a quad laser but darn close.

business - 24
4 big pox (poxing as hard as I can!)
4 small pox
4 inquisition of kozeliek
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 shrieking affliction

my peeps - 11
4 lili of the veil
3 lili, last hope
4 bloodghast

my real estate - 25
4 wasteland
4 factory
3 urborg
14 swamp

thinking about switching out 1-2 wastelands/factories for an additional swamp. or maybe I just need to add the 4th urborg. The BBB and BB sometimes becomes an issue with this list.

not to be a total "yes man" I am of the agreement that sinkhole and dark rits needs to go. that hurt my soul a little bit, but I think the deck does do better and with the 4 big pox added in, it's probably even more LD than it was with the sinkholes. It also feels sacrilege to have a mono black deck without the rits, but it seems to work too, as does being on the play, at least against the G/R stompy I've been testing it against it. I just got my lili's in the mail, so excited to test it. Previous versions were kind of all over the place, with racks in addition to 3balls/sinkholes, so it was a bag of mixed signals. Liking the above build and like the ghasts too.

Short list of possible inclusions:
Collective brutality (currently in my reanimator deck)
raven's crime
beseech the queen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

We got another top8 up there! We're officially as cool as Food Chain and Goblins right now. The latest is again from Clayton Levi, who has 3 top8s with Pox in the last couple months, pretty impressive. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19133&d=320904&f=LE

4 Bloodghast. 4 Sinkhole. So more aggressive than many lists, though not as aggressive as Hardcore's builds. No Fetches for the Bloodghasts, which is interesting. Sideboard seems kind of standard. Not sure what else to say, the discard stuff seems more or less standard, though very few 1cmc discard.

---

This guy effectively replaced Adachi for me as my Pox Hero!! Those Sinkholes!! Bloodghast + Cabal Therapy = CARDGASM!! Be wary of Brainstorm fake outs. One of my friends pulled a fast one where he dropped a Force of Will early game on the table... Only when I gave him the Therapy, he had no other cards to pitch it to! :cool: Gotta give him credit for that lol moment. That's my new 1 cmc discard mainstay. Very devastating when your opponent gives you that, "Did you see my hand?" face after you nail 2+ cards on a blind guess. :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronco

since we are posting lists right now, not quite a quad laser but darn close.

business - 24
4 big pox (poxing as hard as I can!)
4 small pox
4 inquisition of kozeliek
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 shrieking affliction

my peeps - 11
4 lili of the veil
3 lili, last hope
4 bloodghast

my real estate - 25
4 wasteland
4 factory
3 urborg
14 swamp

thinking about switching out 1-2 wastelands/factories for an additional swamp. or maybe I just need to add the 4th urborg. The BBB and BB sometimes becomes an issue with this list.

not to be a total "yes man" I am of the agreement that sinkhole and dark rits needs to go. that hurt my soul a little bit, but I think the deck does do better and with the 4 big pox added in, it's probably even more LD than it was with the sinkholes. It also feels sacrilege to have a mono black deck without the rits, but it seems to work too, as does being on the play, at least against the G/R stompy I've been testing it against it. I just got my lili's in the mail, so excited to test it. Previous versions were kind of all over the place, with racks in addition to 3balls/sinkholes, so it was a bag of mixed signals. Liking the above build and like the ghasts too.

Short list of possible inclusions:
Collective brutality (currently in my reanimator deck)
raven's crime
beseech the queen.

---

It is your one drops that allow you to play without rituals. Inquisition, IB, affliction... You got plenty to do while drawing into more land for those BBB plays. However, your deck is currently weak to blood moon, chalice of the void and wasteland.

Appreciate the feedback. I don't get to regular comps to run against these things, so I wouldn't know until I get there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sibelius

*Masterminds Acquisition. Never cast it, and tbh its never going to be any good. No idea why I'm playing this. Oh wait, I'm playing Pox, making poor decisions with deck building is in my nature :wink:. This should probably be something impactful like another Planeswalker or a clock like Nether Spirit. Interesting aside - Mastermind's Acquisition 'might' be playable if you are running free spells in your deck. Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out and Massacre come to mind. As it is, taking two turns to do anything useful is just not good enough in Legacy. And if the opponent is allowing us that time we have probably got them locked under Liliana anyway!

---

This is why I raise my eyebrows at all of the Beseech the Queen lists. I'm not sure how spending a turn tutoring up a bullet is helpful in a deck that aggressively discards its hand and sacrifices its lands. I can't imagine having the mana or time to invest. Clearly its working for some folks, and I love the card in Mono Black Tron for modern. In fact I'm adding Mastermind's Acquisition to that deck as well. Anyways, about Pox:

Mini report: I played Pox at my LGS last night, its a small event with a subset of regulars, all who play pet decks, so its an interesting field. We have a regular D+T, Storm, U/B Reanimator, R/W Prison, U/R Delver, Nic Fit and Robot Stompy. I try to keep my deck tuned for a larger event, but I vary my sideboard for the local, since no one is on Lands, Delver, or Pile. For a larger event I like 4 leylines in the board for Lands, B/R Reanimator, and Dredge, all of which are very hard to impossible without them. My current list and SB:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
4 Hymn to TOurach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Collective Brutality
1 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Collective Brutality
3 Pithing Needle
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

Round 1 I played against Storm Guy. He's on his own special blend of ANT/TES/TPS/IGG/Busted stuff. The last time we played, he Turn One'd me game 1, I turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 3 Liliana'd him game 2, and he Turn One'd me game 3, so I wanted a real match this time. Game 1 I Ritual Lili on turn one, followed by a ratchet bomb that got a petal and a diamond, followed by a slow grind against his hand and lands. I ultimated that Liliana twice before finally killing him with Factories. He's a great sport and a Storm scholar, and was willing to play to his outs no matter how small. Game 2 he duresses a Liliana. I follow with a thoughtseize and a Brutality, but he is able to chain rituals a few turns later. My hand was powerful, but slow. I needed him to stumble I think, but it was a hard hand to mulligan(I should have). Game 3 I had turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Trinisphere, turn 4 Bitterblossom. It was pretty gross. 1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 I played against Grixis Delver. This was Reanimator Guy. He has a VERY nice U/B Reanimator list (Signed Reanimates, Miscut Duals, Etc) He is also known to play Eldrazi Stompy, since U/B Reanimator in not great at the moment. When I showed up he was furtively sleeving something up, so I was suspicious. He wins the die roll and plays Fetch, Volcanic, Delver. Excellent. I Ritual...no daze, Ritual...no daze...Liliana....no force....Ratchet Bomb. I tick up Lili pitching Wasteland and tick up the bomb. He draws, delver misses, attacks Lili, bolts lili. From that point its easy. I just kill every land he plays, the bomb is there to discourage him from casting a deathrite, his delver keeps not flipping. eventually I have 5 of his lands in the yard and resolve a lili and he packs it in. Game 2 he scoops after I kill his first 2 threats, he Probes me and sees Collective Brutality, Innocent Blood, Innocent Blood, and Toxic Deluge. This is how i want the match to go, and (of course allowing for variance) this is generally how the match does go. I think the Delver matchup can be a reason to play the deck, and this match reinforced this. We were chatting after and he said, "That was the easiest match I've lost in a while" 2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 I played against Deadguy (B/W StoneBlade) This is a guy who plays Eldrazi and Taxes in Modern, so I was not surprised to see a Thalia deck in his hands. I generally feel confident in creature matchups, but Stoneforge Mystic is my least favorite creature to play against (other than Goblin Guide..) The ability to 2-for 1 and then have a very hard to deal with permanent is often too much for Pox. The fact that this deck can nail you with Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana just compounds it. I lost in 2 quick ones where he tore apart my hand and was left with a Batterskull. I had boarded in more removal and pithing needles, and I cut Rituals and Sinkholes. It's possible that I need to leave in sinkhole to keep him off Batterskull shenanigans, since I can usually deal with the Germ/Mystic/Thalia, but bounce and replay is often too much. Anyone have any insight on fighting Equipment strategies? My removal is usually enough vs. D+T, but adding in the Discard for Deadguy or the Counterspell/Discard of Deathblade makes it really tough. 2-1 (4-3)

I got some store credit for my trouble, and I wanted to share because the storm and Delver matchups were very good examples of how my deck is supposed to work, and the Deadguy matchup is one I don't think about and I'm looking for insight.
Karn was great. I mulliganed him away round 1, Boarded him out round 2, and and never saw him round 3!
Have a nice day y'all!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ntropy

This is why I raise my eyebrows at all of the Beseech the Queen lists. I'm not sure how spending a turn tutoring up a bullet is helpful in a deck that aggressively discards its hand and sacrifices its lands.

---

So you've never drawn a Dark Ritual mid-game that was otherwise useless? It feeds busted early plays and maintains mid-range plays like Nether Void even after sacrificing lands. Without library manipulation you have to either play an uber-streamlined list with all 4-ofs for consistency...or play singletons with a way to get them reliably. Beseech does that. If you're trying Beseech without quad-Ritual, of course it will seem slow. In theory, Beseech is actually *very* good for Pox. In practice? It's a little rough, but better than doing nothing in the mid-game, which happens a ton.

Beseech the Queen seems junk with Ritual because you can't search for anything that you can't cast off your lands anyway
Maybe for finding turn 1 Surgical or something it's _okay_

@ntropy Round 2 game 1 I'm pretty sure you're supposed to -2 your Liliana there

I'm a bit skeptical of the Last Hope decks with no creatures. The -2 ability is such an important aspect of the card, when your only target is Bloodghast it half feels like you're just using it as an Underworld Dreams that dies to Gurmag Angler. Of course it can kill X/1 creatures too but then is it better than Cursed Scroll?

4 mana may be too steep for this deck, but recurring an ETB-ability creature might make that more useful (Ravenous Chupecabra or whatever). Maybe there are others that are more useful? Or, in a similar vein, a creature with a strong sac effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Beseech the Queen seems junk with Ritual because you can't search for anything that you can't cast off your lands anyway
Maybe for finding turn 1 Surgical or something it's _okay_

@ntropy Round 2 game 1 I'm pretty sure you're supposed to -2 your Liliana there

I'm a bit skeptical of the Last Hope decks with no creatures. The -2 ability is such an important aspect of the card, when your only target is Bloodghast it half feels like you're just using it as an Underworld Dreams that dies to Gurmag Angler. Of course it can kill X/1 creatures too but then is it better than Cursed Scroll?

---

Try casting Smallpox with only a Swamp and Mishra's Factory and get back to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ronco

4 mana may be too steep for this deck, but recurring an ETB-ability creature might make that more useful (Ravenous Chupecabra or whatever). Maybe there are others that are more useful? Or, in a similar vein, a creature with a strong sac effect.

---

Volrath's Stronghold + Fleshbag Marauder!!! J/K.

Vengeful Pharaoh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Volrath's Stronghold + Fleshbag Marauder!!! J/K.

Vengeful Pharaoh?

---

Actually, I was thinking Braids, but a few others from a quick search:



Braids, cabal minion
Geralf's Messenger
Murderous Redcap
Bloodhunter Bat
chittering rats
corrupt court official
Bloodhusk Ritualist
fleshbag marauder
Lol on fleshbag... but hey, reusable creature sac outlet...

Just spitballing here.

I like Geralf's Messenger. He is too expensive for a deck running four Pox, but he should be okay in other variants. Including Volraths stronghold is maybe to put too much focus on the recursion, but one Unearth is really nice with messenger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Try casting Smallpox with only a Swamp and Mishra's Factory and get back to me.

---

I think you're accidentally arguing that having a Dark Ritual is worse than having 1 more Swamp, which is probably true

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think you're accidentally arguing that having a Dark Ritual is worse than having 1 more Swamp, which is probably true

---

That's fair, especially when considering that I've see some lists only playing 24 lands (even one posted above with only 23!) There's no doubt that the most polarizing topic concerning Pox right now is 'Dark Ritual or not.' If someone is playing 4 Dark Ritual that's akin to playing 1 extra land in my opinion. So I would play 25 lands and some number of Dark Ritual. If no rituals, probably 26. Missing land drops, and on many turns going backwards on land drops (Smallpox/Pox), means we have to play more lands. The alternative is non-land mana sources, Dark Ritual being the most explosive.

Long story short, I think if someone wanted to make their Dark Rituals relevant in the mid-late game then Beseech the Queen is one way to do it, considering it's unwise to rely on drawing your one-of Abyss/Nether Void/Chains in each matchup you need it. Secondly, I feel like Pox needs something powerful to put it into competition. I haven't really explored a non-Ritual list because without SDT I feel the deck needs *something* busted to do rather than rely on just a fair attrition strategy. To compare it to another attrition style deck, Miracles, they have massive amounts of library manipulation and busted ways to abuse it like Terminus/Entreat. What's the most busted thing you can do in Pox? Turn 1 Liliana/multiple removal/multiple discard. If we play a slower attrition style plan it ends up being just a worse Czech Pile, in my opinion, and definitely worse than Miracles (budget aside.)

Note: I realize that when it had SDT it wasn't doing anything different than other attrition decks, it just had the same access to the same busted consistency card. Essentially it was matching the format's busted plays rather than diversifying it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

There's no doubt that the most polarizing topic concerning Pox right now is 'Dark Ritual or not....

Long story short, I think if someone wanted to make their Dark Rituals relevant in the mid-late game then Beseech the Queen is one way to do it, considering it's unwise to rely on drawing your one-of Abyss/Nether Void/Chains in each matchup you need it. Secondly, I feel like Pox needs something powerful to put it into competition.

---

Tbh I feel like a well timed Smallpox is the most powerful thing the deck does...

What has been the consensus on cards like Waste Not and Empty the Pits?
I could imagine some Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead shenanigans with both...
Can you tap and sac Lake of the Dead to itself to get the 4B with an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by streetMage

Can you tap and sac Lake of the Dead to itself to get the 4B with an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play?

---

I believe the answer is yes. Much like other things (a creature for example, T, Sacrifice a creature: do something), as long as it doesn't say "another" in it, it still works. I'll let others comment on the other things you addressed.

Edit - or an intervening if clause: "...if this is still on the battlefield, do something."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by streetMage

Tbh I feel like a well timed Smallpox is the most powerful thing the deck does...

---

It's powerful, but by no means backbreaking like a t1 Liliana. The amount of times a Smallpox has been overcome by opponents has been frequent, at least in my experience.

Quote:

---

What has been the consensus on cards like Waste Not and Empty the Pits?
I could imagine some Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead shenanigans with both...
Can you tap and sac Lake of the Dead to itself to get the 4B with an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play?

---

I've tried Waste Not as a 2-of, didn't see it in a 6 round tournament except a couple of times where it would have been bad. It's a grinding advantage kind of card, one I would suggest using with Raven's Crime and Shrieking Affliction. Empty the Pits I've done as a 1-of, it can be incredible, but I think the ultimate from Liliana of the Last Hope does the same but is much better in the meantime at controlling the board.

To lake of the dead: you have to sacrifice a swamp just for it to enter the battlefield, otherwise it doesn't. It's the equivalent of a fizzle. You can then activate it, sacrificing itself if Urborg is on the table. Just be aware you can't get around the sacrifice a swamp clause.

EDIT: Maybe an enchantment-heavy version with Waste Not/Bitterblossom would be good. I'm intrigued because Waste Not seems so good on the surface.

My opinion on waste not is that you want to play it early to get a full effect from it. But, to me, I think these are the crucial moments for hymn/small pox. Waiting a turn and losing the tempo control might slow down this deck too much and put us behind the 8 ball, as it were. Maybe it does ok as a late game draw to take advantage of the LotV discards, but by that point i'd say it should be in the bag already. That said, I haven't tested it.

Mr. Safety, when you ran Waste not, did you find this? Either testing or in the 6 rounder?

Yes, it was awkward. I always wanted to get it down before smallpox/hymn/liliana, but it gave a time walk to my opponents. I wouldn't get enough value out of it after that. Another argument for Dark Ritual, allowing you to do it t1 along with a thoughtseize. I would want a full set of waste not to have consistency though.

Waste Not is a "If only..." type of card. "-If only i get Waste not, ritual, swamp and thoughtseize in my starting hand, then... "

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

So you've never drawn a Dark Ritual mid-game that was otherwise useless? It feeds busted early plays and maintains mid-range plays like Nether Void even after sacrificing lands. Without library manipulation you have to either play an uber-streamlined list with all 4-ofs for consistency...or play singletons with a way to get them reliably. Beseech does that. If you're trying Beseech without quad-Ritual, of course it will seem slow. In theory, Beseech is actually *very* good for Pox. In practice? It's a little rough, but better than doing nothing in the mid-game, which happens a ton.

---

I have drawn mid-game dark rituals. They suck. I've used them to protect a Toxic Deluge from my own Lili, or cast 2 must counters in a turn to get through some counter magic, or just pitched them to a Collective Brutality. I side board them out in many, many match-ups. I think they are important to keep up with fast combo decks, and function fine in grindier match-ups to get ahead early. I've considered cutting them but I think that makes my Storm match-up much worse.

Just like Waste Not, I think taking a turn to cast Beseech the Queen instead of a disruption spell can be fatal for a deck that lives constantly on the edge of locking out our opponent. Yes I would like to be able to find my Pithing Needle when I need it. That's why there are 4 in my 75. Yes I'd like to be able to find a Toxic Deluge when I need it. That's why there are 3 in my 75. I have no experience with Beseech the Queen or Infernal Tutor in Pox, so I can't compare results. I have some, so perhaps I will give it a shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

@ntropy Round 2 game 1 I'm pretty sure you're supposed to -2 your Liliana there

I'm a bit skeptical of the Last Hope decks with no creatures. The -2 ability is such an important aspect of the card, when your only target is Bloodghast it half feels like you're just using it as an Underworld Dreams that dies to Gurmag Angler. Of course it can kill X/1 creatures too but then is it better than Cursed Scroll?

---

You are probably correct about the Lili activation. I just wanted to pressure his hand and I had multiple ways to kill the Delver.

I really like Last Hope in the board. She truly only has one ability in my deck (no creatures) but against the decks you bring her in for, it is back breaking. (Delver, D+T, Elves, Aluren) I don't think she is required, and its possible that I swap her for a 4th Deluge or 2nd Bitterblossom in the future, but she often prompts a concession, which is big. It is much better mid-game than cursed scroll because there's no activation cost. You can kill a Thalia and cast a Hymn or smallpox in the same turn. With Scroll you generally either spend your turn casting the card you drew, or activating scroll. Not till the late game when everyone is hellbent can you build up enough mana to multi-task with scroll. Scroll help maintain that state, while Lili helps set up that state, and both eventually win the game. Having both also taxes your opponent's needles/revokers/spyglasses.

This article I just found (or rediscovered?) on discard spells is worth reading, and i thought I should share it.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...seize-You.html

Awesome reports as always everyone. Pox is the coolest.

Dark Ritual, Lake of the Dead, Empty the Pits and Waste Not all require something else to be good.

Dropping Ritual is very recent, but it is was I reaching for to side out game 2 almost always. Gas is better than setting that gas on fire and then being down a card. Somebody in this thread stated something that won me over. To paraphrase: "Ritual, IOK, Hymn is still 3 for 3."

I don't have any Lake experience (in Pox), but it seems to me that unless you are powering out Grave Titans it might not be worth it. Has "Wasteland target" written all over it.

Empty the Pits proved (to me) to be wretched in the top quarter of the deck. Necropolis Fiend also suffers the same drawback, but not as painfully.

Waste Not seems like a pipe dream. Everything you could ever want in life from doing what you want to do with your life anyway? Get outta here with that racket. My suspicious were proven true (enough) by watching Reid Duke jam it online for a while in a brand new post-Top era. It didn't do anything consistent or overly impressive.

I figured I'd weigh in on the Ritual question...

I agree that it's a bad topdeck, and it's card disadvantage. That much is obvious. I'm not sure that ritual, IoK, Hymn isn't still brutally powerful despite being card disadvantage though. What we want to do is trade resources until they have none left and we can ride an engine to victory; trading 3 for 3 is fine on that plan.

I feel like the way that Pox generates that resource advantage, both on the board and in cards overall is more complex than just trading a card for a card. Most of the time it's done by playing various repeatable removal spells (the Lilis, Scroll, NoSB; this is why I think Necropolis Fiend is good (and especially good with Ritual, btw)). If we can drain all of everyone's resources and then get one of these on the table then we'll hopefully blank all their further draws and win out.

Ritual, for me, is playable because in a lot of fast matchups (Delver, Combo decks), you can get that lock piece out that much faster. Most every deck struggles against T1 Lili on the play, and as soon as she lands she starts giving you that advantage. And when you're playing Smallpox and Wasteland, getting Lili out first and then following up with Pox or Blood is even harder to deal with, while having to wait for Lili when you get to the 3rd mana is so slow against a Delver deck where you want to be wasting and smallpoxing. And T2 hymn, T3 Lili is way worse against a combo deck like Storm, for example, than t1. Granted, you side ritual out against a lot of Control matchups where that fast advantage is not as powerful. In those matchups you want to just drop threat after threat until they run out of answers. But I feel it is strong enough in the other matchups to be worth it.

I think one thing that is kind of happening as the meta gets more 'fair' is that some people are modifying the deck to focus on beating fair decks only at the expense of the combo matchup. Cutting Dark Ritual seems like a move in that direction, but I'm skeptical of the move in general and I feel like Dark Ritual is not as bad against fair decks as you might think.

In the end game Ritual has a lot of niche uses as well, just to be clear. For example it's a card that easily reduces hand size for Scroll, or which enables you to cast a spell and then use it alone for a surprise Scroll activation. Mr. Safety already mentioned it makes Beseech better. And how often have we been sitting there after Smallpoxing and Wastelanding and thinking 'if only I had 1-2 more mana to cast this bomb in my hand...'? Ritual is mana sources 27-29 (or 26-28, or 25-27 :wink:), especially important if people are raising their curve by playing Karns. Plus given we play Smallpox and Lili, having a dead card always has the vague value of being a clear discard decision.



Anyway the tl;dr is that yeah I like ritual, 2-4 of them, and I think they help us be explosive in ways that are important.

If I can mulligan to four, and still win, then logically it should not be a problem drawing a normal hand of seven including "bad" cards like dark ritual.

Of course, it is important to have a solid reason for the rituals. If most of your spells cost one B then you don't need them. It is quite possible playing three to four liliana is not enough reason either. The odds of getting both Swamp ritual and liliana in starting hand is low after all. It is more likely your common situation is to play discard and disruption for a few turns before liliana.
Otoh, the things are different if you play four Pox, five liliana, one buried alive and only four cards, beside rituals, that cost B. Ie. My deck. While allowing busted plays the rituals function is in this case is to improve the decks mana curve by access to mana boost, rather than playing cheaper spells.

Why do you need Dark Ritual to beat combo?
Can't you just Thoughtseize turn 1, Hymn turn 2, Liliana turn 3? Why do you desperately need Lili turn 1, Hymn turn 2, Thoughtseize turn 3?

All your arguments for Dark Ritual in non-combo matchups are awful

Quote:

---

In the end game Ritual has a lot of niche uses as well, just to be clear. For example it's a card that easily reduces hand size for Scroll

---

So does a land or any other castable card

Quote:

---

or which enables you to cast a spell and then use it alone for a surprise Scroll activation.

---

Is it really so critical that you have to activate Scroll EVERY turn while casting spells? Imagine if instead of that Ritual you had your 4th land. Now every turn you can play a 1 mana spell and use scroll every turn onwards, rather than just this 1 turn of activation + spell

Quote:

---

Mr. Safety already mentioned it makes Beseech better.

---

No, it's bad with Beseech, because Beseech only lets you search for cards you can cast off your lands anyway. Ritual is 'good with beseech' in the same way that it's 'good' with any card that costs 3 or more mana

Quote:

---

And how often have we been sitting there after Smallpoxing and Wastelanding and thinking 'if only I had 1-2 more mana to cast this bomb in my hand...'? Ritual is mana sources 27-29 (or 26-28, or 25-27 ), especially important if people are raising their curve by playing Karns.

---

Don't play 'bombs' in your wasteland smallpox deck then, or just play more than 24 lands

Quote:

---

Plus given we play Smallpox and Lili, having a dead card always has the vague value of being a clear discard decision.

---

This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. 'I like the card because it sucks so much that when I play Smallpox or Liliana I don't have to think about what to discard'

Quote:

---

If I can mulligan to four, and still win, then logically it should not be a problem drawing a normal hand of seven including "bad" cards like dark ritual.

---

"Playing bad cards is acceptable because it's technically possible to win after mulliganing to 4"
Brilliant

What kind of Pox builds are you playing lately kiwi?

I noticed a few pages back you saying Planeswalkers and lock pieces are not your thing, and my main point was that ritual is better with those 'bombs' since it gets them out faster and ahead of the opponents development. So it seems like maybe we have just a basic difference in approach to the deck?

Deck 1: 8 Rack

12 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Nether Spirit
1 Cursed Scroll

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
2 Innocent Blood
1 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
1 Funeral Charm

The last 14 cards are more flexible than the rest of the list (You can think about playing 1-2 Sinkhole, Collective Brutality etc)
This is what I like in legacy ATM and I have tested it a bit

Deck 2: BW Smallpox
I'm not actually sure what this list is supposed to look like in Legacy and I haven't tested BW at all
I just think that if you want to play 4-drop planeswalkers then Flagstones becomes an important asset, and that it makes way more sense as a way to solve the mana problem than Dark Ritual does (you can fit Karn in here easily, it's probably better than Kaya, this is just a rough idea)

Lands (24)
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Fetid Heath
2 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
2 Shambling Vent
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland

Creatures (4)
4 Bloodghast

Planeswalkers (8)
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin

Spells (24)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Smallpox
2 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Collective Brutality
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Cursed Scroll

Wow. After criticizing previous comments with “awful,” “dumbest,” and a sarcastic “brilliant” I definitely wasn’t anticipating two Modern decks to be posted.