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I feel the opposite about decay. With the exception of Eldrazi.dec, it's essentially the best removal spell in the format AND cost-efficient IMO. It's indiscriminate uncounterable removal. Against delver you're guaranteed to remove the creature regardless of force/daze/pierce. It also blows up 9 out of 10 legacy permanents you encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
The 64 card train is a dangerous one to be on. Assuming you're at 61 and you're going to 64, I'm assuming one of the three is a land, with two more business? I'd likely go with Scrying and another GSZ target or something, depending on how many lands I'm at now. Intriguing, good sirs.
You guys are so nice to each other... playing 64 cards is not "intriguing, it is awful. So call it that way.
I'm a Canadian, what do you expect? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I think there can be merit to 64, but you need to do it right. Magic is a game with a huge level of variance, I mean absolutely tremendous variance. Simply having the option to hit that one extra good card you included can be worth a whole lot more than cutting the worst cards. This is especially true in a deck that's able to tutor as much as this deck can. Gitaxian Probe isn't the sort of card that's suited for being the 61st+ card because it's largely air. If you're going to go above 60 (or 61 as is popular here) it needs to be a card of substance, something that does more for you than merely cantrip. I also think that it probably needs to be something you can tutor so that you're actually expanding your toolbox. You're never going to tutor for a Gitaxian Probe (I hope).Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I put forth the 63 card premise earlier. Card 61 is another GSZ target, 62 is a land, which leaves 63. I think card 63 is either a Crop Rotation/Scrying for a land toolbox (and it can accelerate you with Tower) or another good GSZ target. I'm not sure what the upper limit on cards over 60 would be, because the Therapy/Explorer engine is what makes the deck run and you definitely don't want to make that too inconsistent but at the same time going over 60 does make your tutors better.
If you want to go past that, card 64 is also probably a land, which means that if you're going to 64 what you're really talking about is card 65. At 60 cards the chance of a Therapy/Explorer opening is 18.4%, at 65 cards the chance is 16.1%. Will those extra options be relevant more often than the 23/1000 games you miss out on your best opening?
A deck of 4x Syrup, 4x maple Leafs, 4x Moose, 4x Mounted Police, 4x [Insert canadien stereotypes]Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Also I've been thinking of a GB Smallpox type list. It might be terrible. I just remember when I started playing Nic Fit a few years ago playing a couple of smallpox and they were excellent in the Stoneblade/Maverick/Delver meta
@Surgical: it's a value play for a value-oriented deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Delver decks rely on like 12ish threats. Plus there's like nearly 4x of each card. Remove cantrips and you kick them in the balls. Take away delver and goyfs, their threat density is shaved down considerably. Hit burn spells and now they lack reach. Have fun running through rhino & company. Wastelands and/or lands can also be targeted, which at worst gives you information while de-valuing their gameplan built on keeping the game artificially early + assembles around efficiency.
Someone else in the thread many pages back also reminded me of surgical + therapy interactions. While I did not do that during last event, I have had home run opportunities in the past: the christmasland sequence of surgical-therapy-therapy is backbreaking. Let's also not forget: you can turn 0 interact with decks. It can prevent reanimator from going off before your first land + cut into a turn 0 combo deck, or force delver to force of will you obliterating their turn 1 cantrip.
I have learned to appreciate the card a lot. It's solid against a lot of others decks (see: mythic): dredge, lands, mirror match, combo. It helped me beat Scape-Fit last event because I surgicaled his veterans (no idea why he kept them in, but it prevented him from actually getting mana over several turns).
mini report from last weekend, I went 6-3 at the SCG open in philly with scapewish, started off strong at 3-0 and ran into enchantress which sent me to combo land
Miracles 2-1
DnT 2-0
Jacky Wang on Dnt 2-0
Enchantress 1-2, very close game 3 missplay on my part
Goblin-stompy 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
old school sneak attack? maindeck through the breaches 0-2 could have taken atleast game 2 but i got way too greedy, decided not to sacrifice my top for a flashback therapy on his griselbrand hoping to fade a drawstep, he drew sneak and i died
ANT 2-1 Slaughtergames was good enough, sick blind hits on therapy bought me more than enough time
Burn 0-2 kept a slow hand game 1 and got destroyed, game 2 i mulled to 4 due to all lands/no spells hands and failed to draw any action :/
The List:
Scapewish(61)
Creatures (16)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
2 Woodelves
2 Sakura-Tribe Elders
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (21)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands (24)
2 Valakut
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Grounds
Sideboard:
2 Carpet of flowers
2 REB
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughtergames
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Been playing this list for years and am confident this is the most optimal version of the maindeck (minus 2 flex slots, being Abrupt Decay and E.Wit) deck preforms amazingly i can never put it down for large tournaments and i would recommend everyone trying it out
True to form, I matched up against TWO, repeat TWO, UR delver decks tonight (the newer version with Stormchase Mage and Monastery Switftspear) and lost 1-2 and 0-2. Ugh. They are fast... very fast.
Loved this post! One thing though: The only planeswalkers AD can hit are Lilliana and flip-Jace. I've yet to encounter my first flip-Jace (which can also be answered by PtE) and Lilliana, while possibly a complete and total bitch, hardly ever is the end of us. Vindicate is amazing, especially when you get to recur it, but never more than a 1-off. I still need to get one. Pulse is nice, but I prefer the colour requirement of Vindicate. It frees up your green mana so you may cast something green that turn as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
What you say here is pretty much why I don't run AD at all. 4 PtE are the most effective way to solve problem creatures and artifacts/enchantments can be manhandled by Krosan Grip/Qasali Pridemage (which has some nice interaction with Meren and is pretty much a GSZ'able AD) if not via Pernicious Deed.
Concerning Surgical vs. anyDelver: It's fine, I guess. You don't really need it, but it doesn't hurt you either. It can be a neat way to check for counters and fuck with their shit for 0 mana before you drop a bomb.
Still a pretty good turn out in my opinion. I'm enjoying my Scapewish deck also. Vexing seems like some pretty sweet tech. I'm also running 1 Ooze mainboard. Any tips you recommend?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firepaw3
Gratz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firepaw3
That loss to Burn is quite unexpected...alas shit happens...
Do you remember your in & out against ANT ?
I'm struggling every now and then against that MU.
Maybe carpets are the way to go but damn those are too narrow to my taste. ..
Hey, look who's here. Do you still play NicFit? If so, which version?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
During the Cruise period all effort was on lifegain. 4 Rhino isn't enough. DRS ia more important here early. He gains a little life and often eats a bolt. That goes on till Courser shows up and stalls until Tusk lands. Some Deed and Ooze in between. When i played my PFire Jund list at that tome i barely lost a game vs Burn and UR Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
Anyway, i watched you play against Miracles. The MU is rough, you had the advantage during the early game. He was lucky with his draws in the lategame. I only watched G1, but knee the turning point was the Deed that blew up only Counterbalance and him landing Standstill right after followed by Clique. Counterbalance was no threat, playing conservetive is important here.
Was nice seeing someone else pilot NicFit. Doesnt happen often. I was surprised by the time spend being dependant of the top of the deck while on an empty board.
Yeah, I saw you watching. I was killing time before going to my local FNM when my ADHD kicked in....blow up all the things! ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I've been trying out Rhino-Fit (similar to yours) for the last few weeks but I'm slowly facing up to the fact that I need Punishing Fire when I play irl in my city. Last night I started off beating a S&T variant 2-0 but then the wheels came off. Lost the second match to ANT (even after I surgicaled InfT AND slaughtered Tendrils AND pulsed 28 goblins!) and then faced the exact same UR deck in matches 3 and 4.
Decisions, decisions. Give up game against combo and go with Punishing Fire? Maybe I'll try Jund-Fit next week, or even the Punishing Loam thing with Chalice, KoTRs and Bobs.
Unfortunate against ANT losing after all that. The biggest concern i am having for running Jund is Eldrazi, MUD, Marit Lage and to some degree combo. With my local players group we think that ANT and Elves will loose ground a little bit and that the meta will be more fast combo (Reanimator, dredge and SnT) coupled with Lands, Eldrazi, DnT (also red splash) and Painter. We do think that Miracles, Shardless and several versions of Delver will stay present. Of course this is all theorycrafting, but looking at this assessment i want something that is able to perform on some level against a field like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
Playing Jund vs Junk i think against the combo decks we are somewhat even.
Jund is much softer against Eldrazi and Lands, but is stronger against Miracles, Shardless and Delver.
With Junk i feel i have least something to do against anything in the field. Jund has some of those MU's that completely feel impossible. Really fast combo will always be a problem, but hey, can't have it all.
Also the big difference between Junk and Jund is that Junk is more in the midrange (4 Rhino) and Jund is almost always super grindy.
Maybe, we as a thread can work out a meta assessment to what is strong against which match-up's (without actually looking at a specific splash/flavor of NicFit) and build from there on. You may disagree with the initial write-up, but we gotta start somewhere.
Meta
Eldrazi: Path to Exile (Abrupt Decay), Pernicious Deeds, 6/6+ creatures, Glissa, Baleful Strix
RGb Lands: Path to Exile, Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze
Reanimator: Deathrite Shaman, Karakas, Scavenging Ooze
Dredge: Scavenging Ooze, Pernicious Deed
Sneak/Show: Karakas, Pithing Needle, Slaughter Games
OmniShow: Slaughter Games
D&T: Punishing Fire, Pernicious Deed, Kolaghan's Command
Painter: Punishing Fire, Pernicious Deed, Kolaghan's Command
Miracles: Punishing Fire, Slaughter Games, combat walkers, Thragtusk
Shardless: Sigarda, everything that creates cardadvantage.
Delver: Punishing Fire
Elves: Pernicious Deed (more, but this often is the turning point)
ANT: Slaughter Games
Locally, Eldrazi hasn't surfaced yet. The general consensus of opinion around these parts is that no-one is willing to invest in the component parts when there's every chance that those parts will be banned in a few weeks! Our typical Legacy players have already invested $x,000's in their deck(s) and they don't crack packs. It's not typical behaviour for them to buy high and then have to sell low after bans are announced. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule but you get the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
You're onto something with the meta thing.
('meta' - do we really have to use that word? As Mr Montoya once said: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means")
What works in your town might not necessarily work in my town. My local scene is disproportionately blue (combo, delvers, shardless), with a healthy dose of Miracles and DnT on the side, so perhaps I have to accept that I have to run a different variant than all you guys who get to play against a higher variety of fair decks? Pyroblast to the rescue!
against storm you just have to get lucky, on the play t1 therapy LED, on the draw infernal or BS depending on your follow upQuote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
in my case i hit 2 LED and had a slaughtergames for t3 and g3 double therapy into slaughtergames, he didnt board in his empty because he thought i could deal with it too easily, which made it easy to kill him
Against burn i think i managed to cast 1 creature over our 2 games :/ and g2 he had 2 vortex's
Shusher is INSANE, it lets you win games vs reanimator and Sneak strats because u can GSZ for him early once putting your opp on snt and then it lets you scapeshift even after they have a million cards via grislebrand, lets you play under miracles CB to resolve a deed, or even just a scapeshift to kill them, Lets you play veterans and therapies under a chalice @1 vs stompy and tezzeret strats, vs delver you can play without fear of pierce and FOW, at worst uncounterable blockerQuote:
Originally Posted by Weast
i dont have any general tips for the deck other than to think of it as a control deck that CAN combo. you never want to get trapped into thinking you need to combo or keep hands because it has fast mana and a scapeshift, you need to control the game as best as possible and get to the point where youve exhausted your opponents resources enough to be able to scapeshift them, also know the deck 100%
If you need room for the shusher (if you want to add it in) I would cut either Ooze(personally seems too slow to me, not really needed in any of the matchups we would want it against as we are favored vs all those decks) or cut E.Wit, card always under preforms for me at most i get back a land that was wasted or therapy to cast 2 more times, which is good but not worth the 3 mana imo
I tried out the 8 post Eldrazi version today. Went 1-3.
Round One: Jeskai StoneBlade.
Game 1: He ends up forcing in order, matter reshaper (which would have flashed back a therapy), reality smasher, reality smasher. I somehow grind it out to play Ulamog (after he clique my Kozi away). Sadly, A swords late, I was done.
Game 2: Keep 2 lands (bayou, eye) along with TS, Therapy and some eldrazi....I don't find a third land until way late and die quickly.
Round 2: My buddy on Mono-red Sneak (actually the same deck Hoogland was playing at Phi)
Game 1: Turn one moon. Pretty simple from there. Sneaks in 4 creatures for maximum overkill
Game 2: Pithing needle at Sneak. Magus comes down for him. I have a explorer, I decide to block with it. Ramps him up enough to breach a FSM.
Round 3: 4 color delver.
Game 1: Zombie snake makes quick work of me.
Game 2: He keeps a one lander and I ramp hard.
Game 3: I resolve a primetime which he bolts twice....and I resolve another.
Round 4: Sultai Depths
Game 1: A cunning wish for crop rotation does me in quickly.
Game 2: I stifle his mana with chokes and resolve Kozi.
Game 3: No good interaction for his fairly fast depths.
Played this list today at Mythic's 2k:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Engineered Plague
Very slight changes from the last list I'd posted that I was considering -- after discussing with MrIggins on facebook for a while, I dropped the maindeck Qasali for Deluge #2, and used the sideboard slot for an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, which was a suggestion he made. Otherwise, I didn't make any changes.
R1: Alex with U/R Painter
He's chatting while mulliganning about how he did at SCG Philly -- not bad, but he's still tuning the deck. Great, a combo deck. He mulls to 5 game one, and proceeds to t1 Tomb->Painter, t2 City->Grindstone->kill you. Nice 5.
Game two is a bit grindier. He makes a misplay by allowing something (a deed?) he shouldn't have when he had FoW in hand, and I punish him harshly for it. After two Deeds and a bunch of miserable magic, I eventually resolve a 2nd Surgical (the first got FoW'd), removing his Painters from the game. He scoops in response.
Game three was the least close of all three. He keeps a super greedy no-lander 7, leading Lotus Petal into Brainstorm. He bricks finding land. I have a Therapy/Explorer start, but elect to take my two free Time Walks before even thinking about saccing Vet. My Therapy bricks, but sees Welder, Needle, 2x Ponder, Intuition. I can kind of see why he chanced it, because if he hit even one blue land, he was off. I don't think I would've kept it, of course, but I can sort of understand his thought process. I bait a FoW with a Deed, and then Surgical a Painter. The game ends when I untap and Vindicate his Volcanic Island.
Sideboarding: +2 Seize, +2 Grip, +3 Surgical, +2 Needle, +2 S.Games; -2 Truths, -2 Baneslayer, -1 Titan, -1 Meren, -1 Nightmare, -1 Glissa, -1 Deluge, -1 Rhino, -1 Nissa.
R2: Doug McKay with NO RUG
Game one he mulls to 4, shows me a V.Clique and a bunch of U/R lands, and dies. Unfortunate.
I assume that he's still on his landstill deck from last event, and board: +Sorin, +Wurmcoil, +Elspeth, +2 Seize; -2 Deluge, -Glissa, -EE, -1 Vet.
Game two he shows me green, with Noble Hierarchs and Savage Knuckleblades, along with V.Clique. His early Clique and countermagic does a lot of damage to me, and by the time I deal with it, he has a second copy ready to go. Admittedly, most of this game was my fault -- I kept a slightly greedy 2-lander and got punished for it by missing like three land drops. C'est le vie.
Game three he suddenly has Goyfs and a Natural Order for Progenitus, which I am boarded hilariously wrongly for. The good news is I have 6 lands in play, a Sylvan Library going, and Elspeth in my deck as an out. The bad news is that I never find the Elspeth, and I die to Progenitus.
I should've reboarded after game two, because my spider senses were tingling that he had Natural Order in his deck, but I didn't have any proof so I just stayed where I was. I didn't want to bring Glissa back in because of his Bolts, but that was without knowing that he had Goyfs in his deck. Deluges should've stayed in, for sure, Slaughters should have come in over Sorin and Wurmcoil. I never drew Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy in any game, so there wasn't really that much more I could've done with certainty -- I continue to have issues actually listening to my instincts (which are almost always right).
R3: Ryan with Eldrazi
I mull to 5, but my hand is gas. I'm vs unknown, but I have Explorer, Zenith, Glissa, and two lands. He plays an Endless One, and I respond with Vet, which does a very good Moat impersonation a at least 5 turns. His double Thought-Knot Seers (which come down on like turn 4-5) see Deed, Rhino, Glissa, and Baneslayer -- he rips out the Glissa and then the Baneslayer on the following turn, and Revokers the Deed. He also has Dismember for the Rhino, and eventually swings in to take me from 22 to 8, and then death. Him opting to build a board state and not actually try to pressure me was an unfortunate line of play -- if he'd actively tried to kill me before like turn 7, I think I would've been okay -- but, oh well.
Game two I mull to 5 again. I have an Explorer once again, but it gets Wailed. My Sakura block-sacs his Endless One, and my Zenith for another Explorer the following turn is good. He begrudgingly swings into this one, which allows me to untap into Baneslayer. He responds by All Is Dusting it (?!!?!?!?!?), and punches me for a bunch. I eventually stabilize with Baneslayer into Sun Titan. His Endbringer is a large problem, and he smashes me low -- but a final Sun Titan swing puts him low enough for a Zenithed Rhino to burn him out.
Game three is PROBABLY my fault. He leads Ancient Tomb -> Winter Orb, go. My hand consists of a couple lands, a Vet, a Vindicate, EE, and a Zenith. I play the Vet, he untaps, plays another Tomb, and Wails the Vet. I just play a land and pass. He plays a Cavern into Reality Smasher, and puts me to 14.
So, how do you play this? I have my land drop for the Vindicate, but what do you hit? Do you assume that the Smasher is his only real pressure (he could have Mimics, TKS, Reshaper, Chalices/Thorns/etc, Dismembers, or any other garbage in his hand). He also hasn't missed a land yet. Basically, there are two lines:
Vindicate the Smasher.
Vindicate the Winter Orb, Zenith for Glissa next turn.
I opt for nuking the Winter Orb. He untaps into a second Smasher, putting me to four. I Zenith up Glissa even though it doesn't really matter. He Metamorphs his Smasher and smashes me into oblivion.
I thought about this game for a long time between rounds, and, based on the cards in hand, I've come up with this line.
Vindicate the Smasher.
He untaps Ancient Tomb, pass.
I untap a land, play a land, play EE@2.
He untaps Ancient Tomb, pass.
I untap a land, play a land, pass.
He untaps Cavern, plays Smasher, puts me to 9. EoT I crack EE.
I untap all lands, Zenith Glissa, pass.
He untaps, plays Metamorph on Smasher, swings. I eat one, take one to the face, go to 4.
I play Baneslayer, stabilize (Baneslayer was my last draw step).
Now, this is based solely off the cards in our hands at the end of the game. He certainly could have drawn anything and made this line worse, but I think that this is the line I should have taken. I can't say that I've ever had the pleasure of playing vs Winter Orb before, and this was my first "in the wild" run-in with Eldrazi, so no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Mulling to five twice certainly didn't help either.
Warden played this guy later in the day and avenged me, so that was good.
Sideboarding: +2 Grip, +Sorin, +Elspeth, +Wurmcoil; -2 Truths, -1 Deed (revoker and expected Needles out of the board), -Nightmare, -Nissa.
R4: Nick with U/R Stormchaser Delver
Game one he jams a Delver vs my Explorer. It doesn't flip for two turns, but I have an unmolsted Tower draw into t1 Sigarda. His Delvers (first and second) flip off of a FoW on his t3 upkeep. Bullet: dodged. He plays Stormchaser and hits me for a million with a Probe and a Bolt, putting me down to 7 in one swing. Rhino comes down and I stabilize from there.
Game two his t1 Delver doesn't flip the entire game, which is faintly impressive. Even if it had, I would've ended the game at like 14 instead of 21. Ramp, Therapy, Rhinos and Baneslayers. Don't really need anything else for this matchup.
-2 Truths, -Glissa, -Nightmare, -Sun Titan; +2 Seizes, +3 Surgicals.
I wanted to try out the Surgicals on the board in vs Delver, since we were just all talking about that. I have to say, I was actually pretty impressed. I got to live the dream in game two -- he Brainstormed in response to my Flashback. I let it resolve, and then Surgicaled Brainstorm while still in response to Therapy. It felt as great as everyone said it does.
R5: Dalton with Merfolk
Game one he straight fucks me. He has triple Silvergill + True-Name + Mutavault + triple FoW. Like, k, you got me.
Game two I keep a no-land 5: Vet x2, Therapy, Deathrite, Deed. I reason that I have a scry, and any green source puts me way over the edge of reasonable for a mull to 5. I could mull to 4 looking for a land, but the spells likely wouldn't be anywhere near as good, so I sit on it. I scry Needle to the bottom, brick a land for two draw steps, and he starts punching me with a Jitte-powered Mutavault. I rip Verdant, and am off to the races. A whole lot of sweepers and shit later, I emerge victorious -- although only at 3.
Game three is much, much easier. I have the right mix of everything, and he crumples beneath my sweepers.
+2 Needle, +Elspeth, +Wurmcoil; -2 Truths, -Nightmare, -Nissa.
R6: Matt with Goblins
Ah, the round 6-for-prizes-vs-goblins, how I missed you from last month >_> (different guy though)
Game one I play a Vet off a mull to 6 and ship. He thinks for a second, shrugs his shoulders and says fuck it. He plays a Mountain and Tarfires my Vet, then plays Vial. I proceed to get Glissa out, which walls his board for many turns. I threaten Meren, but he has an Incinerator for her. Nissa gets online, and digs me deep with a Top, but I simply cannot find any of my 6 sweepers, and he amasses enough of a board state to kill me in one shot, after Pyrokinesising (maindeck??) my Glissa. Crazy game, lots of fun. Would've been fine if I saw a sweeper, but, again, sometimes it happens.
Game two I get him with Engineered Plague, and have no trouble stabilizing against his board of 3 1/1s (Ringleader and 2x Warchief).
Game three my deck wants to showboat. Nissa, Sorin, Elspeth, Sigarda, Sun Titan + Deed: the gang's all here. I make a bunch of mana and do a bunch of obscene things. Nissa's 4/4 and Elspeth's swarm of 1/1s (which could've become 2/1s) gunked up the board while I built to Titanic Deed, which ended the game.
+Plague, +Wurmcoil, +Elspeth, +Sorin; -Nightmare, -2 Truths, -Vindicate (too many goblins).
That put me at like 12thish place, good for $50. Warden squeaked in at 16th, and one of my local friends / road warriors got top 4 with Ultimate Fit, bringing home 300 in credit.
I'll have more thoughts at a later time when I'm more cognizant -- right now I really want to just go pass out.
Couple quick hits though
-) Both of my losses were potentially due to my own errors (boarding wrong vs Doug, wrong line vs Winter Orb vs Eldrazi). Hard to say what would've happened if I'd done differently, of course, but I THINK both of those matches were winnable.
-) I literally never played the Explosives. It was in my hand a grand total of once all day, vs Eldrazi g3. I would've liked it any number of times -- just didn't see it.
-) Painful Truths is not playable at Mythic. These matchups are just all garbage for it. The card's probably fine at something like an SCG Open or other different metagames, but for me, the card's just not viable. My life total is under way too much duress at all times in that room to be able to use it to draw cards.
-) Glissa x Meren: I ship it. These two ladies both performed admirably on the day for me.
-) Sun Titan and Baneslayer continue winning games.
-) I only had one Tower hand all day :(((
-) Surgicals impressed.
-) Elspeth was actually pretty great. Sorin was bad, Wurmcoil was mediocre. Might be better as a Dromoka.
-) Maindeck Deluges were great overall.
K. Going to go pass out now.
So... Did you ever really miss the spotremoval..? Be it Decay or PtE.
Why wouldn't he cast Ponder off the Lotus Petal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Did you consider Smasher's discard requirement?Quote:
Vindicate the Smasher.
He untaps Ancient Tomb, pass.
I untap a land, play a land, play EE@2.
He untaps Ancient Tomb, pass.
I untap a land, play a land, pass.
He untaps Cavern, plays Smasher, puts me to 9. EoT I crack EE.
I untap all lands, Zenith Glissa, pass.
He untaps, plays Metamorph on Smasher, swings. I eat one, take one to the face, go to 4.
I play Baneslayer, stabilize (Baneslayer was my last draw step).
Does running the 4th Rhino help with this? I noticed that you boarded out Truths almost every game. When would you keep it in? Against Miracles, Lands, Combo, and Esper Stoneblade?Quote:
Couple quick hits though
-) Painful Truths is not playable at Mythic. These matchups are just all garbage for it. The card's probably fine at something like an SCG Open or other different metagames, but for me, the card's just not viable. My life total is under way too much duress at all times in that room to be able to use it to draw cards.
Congrats and thanks for the report!
I also played at Mythic, able to scrape together 16th place.
I went Junk Fit. Similar creatures to Kev, but my spells/utility are different.
*I think this is everything
7 fetch
7 basic
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
1 arbor
1 karakas
1 phy tower
/22
3 vet
3 drs
1 sakura
1 scooze
1 Teeg
1 nissa
1 witness
1 courser
3 rhino
1 meren
2 baneslayer
1 Sigarda
/19
4 GSZ
4 therapy
3 decay
2 path
1 toxic
1 vindicate
3 deed
2 top
/20
---
1 scooze
3 surgical
1 Armageddon
1 DL Dromoka
2 carpet
2 slaughter
1 toxic
2 needle
2 Liliana of the veil
**I'm on my iPhone, which is a chore to type on. In a nutshell
R1: lost to BUG goodstuff -Zach is super laid back, great player
R2: tie sketchy miracle player URw
R3: win Sneak/Show -- survived an Emrakul attack game 1 and won from oblivion
R4: win Elves! -super nice guy
R5: win Eldrazi -guy who Kev lost to. love this kid he was very pleasant and chill
R6: tie Shardless BUG w/o delver -very solid and nice guy I know
Mythic has developed such a great culture. 5 of my 6 matchups were people I'd have at a BBQ. And I really wanna put this out there, because at the end of the day it's about slinging cardboard and having fun.
---
My list:
Liliana was strong.
Armageddon was spicy
Teeg was also strong (elves he was a boss). Debated about Teeg #2 in the deck, felt he should have been there
DL Dromoka won 3 games on her own. Against Eldrazi, she raced a pair of X costing Eldrazi. Her 5/7 lifelink is so awkward for players to deal with. Uncounterable is also a thing.
Baneslayer was okay. Actually lost fights to goyf. I misplay R1 where I don't race with her. I still think Baneslayer came out too late in several games. Couldn't turn it around.
If I gave hit with Hymn or early TS I have to come out of such a hole.
MD toxic was strong. Paths were okay. decay was okay.
I want KotR in my deck. I would cut Courser and possibly Nissa for some Reliquary hunnies. The logic is that Nissa ramps into shit I don't need (more G) and courser isn't going fast enough. Reliquary would also be a strong beater/defender. She ruins goyf fights and can clock the opponent when you sequence properly (tutor - fetchland - land of choice).
I want more draw, but Truth isn't it. Maybe it's Sylvan.
Didn't miss Pulse at all.
Not really. There was one or two times vs manlands where I was slightly annoyed that all of my removal at the time (no deed onboard) was sorcery speed, but that was the only issue. At the end of the day, manlands lose to our creatures (other than Tar Pit), so it's not that big of a deal generally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
To contrast, my roommate (who was on Scape), missed his Decays immensely. It might just be a playstyle difference -- as noted previously, I tremendously prefer sweep to spot when it comes to removal in this deck.
No idea why he didn't cast Ponder instead. Would've definitely been better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Yep, I had something in mind to discard to the Smasher.
I don't like running 4 Rhinos, personally. I feel it clunks up the 4-spot too much, and while the idea of drowning in Rhinos sounds like a lot of fun, it's less good in practice, in my experience. I see Rhino exactly the amount of time that I want to with 3+4 Zenith, so I don't want to add the 4th.
Truths is great against Miracles, Shardless, anything with Stoneforge Mystic, and Lands. Against most combo decks you simply won't have the time to take a turn to draw cards, even if it would help you find hate. Basically, my stance on Truths is that it's great against the matchups that I want to play against. I would LOVE to be in a metagame where I could run the card, because that means I would be having a lot of fun (and favorable) matchups, unlike the meta I actually exist in, where I need to be worried about being turn 4 goldfished every match. I like Truths a lot and I envy everyone who can actually get away with playing it. Don't take my cutting of the card as me saying it's a bad card or not good enough for the deck.
Well done boys! How many players turned up on the day?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
My preference for Dromoka over Baneslayer is because of its 3rd ability, i.e. your opponent can't cast spells on your turn. No combat shenanigans from them and you get to land spells with impunity on your turn. Did that come up on the day for either of you?
Cheers on the results. Thanks for the reports. Really like reading about otherones experience. It's been very helpful. Curious to the report of Ultimate Fit. How many players did participate?
Looking at those MU's i can't help but think that those MU's would have been perfect for PFire NicFit (yes i am looking for an excuse here :-)
But Junk still feels as the safer choice. Switched it back to how it was a good month ago after changing and testing lists on a daily basis. See sig.
46 players for this one -- a bit low compared to our usual 60~, but I know Detroit siphoned off a couple cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
My friend who top 4'd on Ultimate played vs Eldrazi (w), Shardless (draw), BUG Delver (w), goblins x2 (both w, one was top 8), merfolk (w), and belcher (L), which put him at 4-1-1 and into the top 8. As noted, he played vs Goblins (who was on the play) in top 8, and won. The Ultimate list was pretty similar to what I've shared previously -- we made a couple tweaks, put a pair of Needles in the board, etc. I'll post the link to the top 8 lists whenever Dan puts it up. I'd like to note that while we shared a Merfolk player, all 3 Goblins players between the two of us were distinct. There was a strangely high meta share of Goblins in that room, and they all did reasonably well. Not sure if it was just a fluke, or a sign of a hole in the metagame.
Doug McKay and I were chatting during our match, and agreed that being the "alpha fair deck" is a good strategy for legacy right now. Goblins has a claim to that throne, as do Nic Fit and Eldrazi. Just an interesting thought.
Thank you for mentioning Shardless and clarifying about combo. You should play on MTGO. I'm playing my 3rd league and I've playing 13 matches, all against fair decks. Not one combo, sneak-a-fatty-into-play, or graveyard based deck. Just fair decks ranging from Miracles to Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
@Arianrhod: I like the idea of mass sweepers. It gives you some extra slots to put some more creatures in. It also shows that there is some merit to lowering the number of removal spells in the deck altogether.
I was planning to attend the monthly at my LGS this weekend, but stuff came up. Didn't manage to attend. Next opportunity should be april 16th.
http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/mar_legacy_16
3rd place list is the Ultimate I was talking about earlier, for those interested.
They made an error with his list. I don't think he ran 6 Verdant Catacombs. Catacombs 4-6 probably are Windswept Heaths.
Also, hurray for Fierce Empath! I love that card.
Siege Rhino + Deadeye Navigator O M GQuote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Looking at this list, are there any changes that would be made based on actuall experience?
Gonna sleeve it up and give it a spin :-D
Edit: 64 card main?
Boner alert..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
The other day i played something like this but BUG. Thragtusk and Deadeye Nav where soulbound. I activated deadeye 3 times at my opponents end step... whats not to like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I love it when we get to do EDH things!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
On another note: One build I'd still like to see is one that can reliably drop Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and keeps control with All is Dust instead of Toxic Deluge.
Yes, I know that deck is called either Turbo Eldrazi or MUD, but I don't see why we couldn't do it. I think I'd call it Jizz Fit.
Speaking of doing EDH things..
Looking through the thread - Have any of you guys done any Rector builds with Intuition? Intuition for Rector + Therapy + Unburial Rites gives you a Rector trigger. Rector builds don't generally seem as harsh on the mana base as other lists since you don't need Grove or Valakut or anything like that. Other interesting Intuition packages:
Rector, Therapy, Unburial Rites as mentioned above
Lingering Souls, Therapy, Therapy - disrupts combo decks pretty hard. Souls is good with Humility also.
Witness, Meren, Recurring Nightmare - infinite grind (with another creature/fetch for Arbor).
Intuition being castable under Gaddock Teeg feels pretty useful when compared to Gifts.
I like the name but at that mana, you are better off with newlamog or Koz D. Deed and Deluge are usually enough and Karn just does a better impression. We aren't mud so that may not be a real thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
There's only 6 fetches -- 3 Verdants and 3 Mistys. For some reason they duped the Verdant line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
that RUG NO list is smexy with the maindeck knucklebros.
Kudos to those who did well this weekend at Mythic.
SOI Mechanics Article
Under the new rules, the converted mana cost of the back face of a DFC is based on the mana cost of the front face.
Huntmaster and Flip Garruk can no longer be Abrupt Decay - ed. Seems nice to have.