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I have experience running Fathom Seer in Legacy (back from the UW Tempo days; check http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Deck-UW-Tempo if it doesn't ring a bell), but I can't really see its allure without either equipment to make it beat for a substantial amount, or to synergize with other stuff that wants your land-count to be low (like Weathered Wayfarer). Can you tell me more about what made it so impressive in your testing?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Mishra‘s Workshop for face-down: Scroll of Fate. The deck you referenced was a creature-feature deck (or a Blade deck, near the end of thread), we‘re much closer to a spells-matter, combo deck. Those lands a Seer would return to hand are coming back as EoT PW-killin‘ 2/2s.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
Dreadnought is the anathema of dude decks and zero-strategy tap-out-and-jam value ETB nonsense. We are a mixture of:
-Standstill
-Elves who don‘t need an untap step, Stasis who would deny the untap step, and we who would exploit the controlled absence of an untap step. It should not be surprising that Elves also has a strategy of turning their dudes into Dreadnoughts for a single turn
-pseudo-Delver ~ combo control: UB Reanimator, Infect, Shadow
-UB Tezz and MUD who are the prisons, and we are the prison breaker
With the exception of prison vs prison breaker, any of the above matchups is basically a mirror match.
If I can get the cards in time, this is what I'll be piloting at my local October 26th 1K:
4x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Vision Charm
3x Dismember
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
3x Winter Orb
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Vendilion Clique
Sideboard is a little loose, but serviceable. My local metagame never matches the overall meta. One of the more difficult matchups, at least that I've experienced, for Stifle-Nought is Miracles. Vision Charm can be used in response to the Terminus miracle trigger. Gargoyle seems very good, and has been noted Scroll is the nuts.
Don‘t cast Vision Charm until they resolve a Terminus trigger, pay the :w: and put it on the stack @Mr. Safety
I was thinking of milling them for 4 not phasing my dude. Milling them for 4 mills Terminus into their graveyard in {EDIT} if I suspect they have it on top. Phasing is the better option if I only have one creature because my creature will phase back in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
EDIT: Vision Charm is a surprisingly complicated card against miracle triggers. I clarified my statement a bit.
If you wait for the miracle trigger then the card is already in their hand so milling will be largely ineffective. I've found that Scroll of Fate has helped the Miracles matchup if it sticks. A steady stream of 2/2's can be hard for them to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Piggybacking off the "army of 2/2s" idea, it's worth mentioning that answers such as Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse will only remove 1 manifested card at a time; as they have "no name", they don't share names with any other permanents and therefore can't be removed en masse with "same name as other permanents" removal. Just a little fun aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
I was thinking I would likely be able to 'smell' a Terminus coming, but I worded it wrong. Doing it in response to the trigger only works for phasing my artifact out, if I want to mill them I would have to do it in response to their Brainstorm (likely scenario during my turn) or the upkeep on the following turn after they cast a Ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
I got my situations mixed a little, thanks for the clarification.
Is Fathom Seer better than Standstill with Scroll of Fate? It seems bonkers by turning extra Islands on the battlefield into 2/2's in the mid-late game.
Supply question: Where are you all getting your Scroll of Fate(s) from?
Local stores don't have any and online stores stock them 1 at a time before they're back to sold out.
I was only able to nab 2 of them from Troll&Toad, looks like they are out of stock again. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
TCGPlayer has several sellers with 4+ copies. I got my 3 "extra" copies off TCGPlayer on release day.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I buy from Card Kingdom b/c they keep legacy 1ks alive on west coast.
I think the Brazen Borrower should be replacing all bounce going forward. Its a dual threat and just as good against most matchups. I like your list Safety good luck.
Because this has come up...if you guys are concerned with control (Grixis, Miracles) Dispel is an extremely good sideboard option. Counters Fow, Brainstorm, Swords, Push, Kolagan’s Command, Bolt, Edict etc. i also love Misdirection effects. Pierce just isnt reliable at stopping control because they can always pay for a swords or push.
I nabbed everything, looks like i'm slinging dreadnoughts in October.
Is Academy Ruins something i should jam in there? All my threats are artifacts now, so it makes sense. Not sure where to cut, likely the Pierce/Snare. I could also cut a Daze, but not sure.
I can't imagine a Stronghold land is ever going to perform better than Noxious Revival (offensive mode = counter Reanimate + time walk). Like maybe you can make some argument if you have zero ways to recur Noxious, but even then I think Noxious is still better. Past that, you'd also have to get to the point of saying that a card that requires 3 lands to activate is better than a Karn, which actually puts a card in hand (to include a Dreadnought in exile). On some level you're also competing with Hieroglyphic Illumination + Mystic Sanctuary or Bone Harvest (which was printed at :1::b: in this new set)...I think I'd also have to be convinced as to why we're playing Stronghold over Drafna's Restoration (which I would guess has been reprinted at some point as a :u:-colored Argivian Find).
list looks solid, couple nitpicks: I'd add a 19th, possibly even a 20th, land, probably over the 3rd Dismember and the MD T Orb. Without Delvers the threat curve looks 8x2cmc (incl. 4x PhD+Stifle/Charm) plus 4x3cmc. A while back I was defending my 18 land count against the same argument put forth by @Fox and pointed out that we're the rare tempo deck that taps Wastelands for mana while being WL-proof ourselves. But your curve w/o 1drop threats is considerably higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Enter Academy Ruins: I hear the argument on Noxious Revival (especially in a Delver build), but the cost of including Ruins here is practically nonexistent: It's serviceable (i.e. untapped) mana with an uncounterable mid-late-game tutor attached. (bonus jank play: Vision-mill yourself to dig for a threat or SB artifact.) The only downside really is giving opps a WL target. In my draft I added Ghost Quarter as my 20th land (& 5th WL), which depending on your meta (RUG & Depth much?) could be v strong I think.
The inclusion of AR would also be a fun way of turning a couple of Counterbalances out of the side into a silly/pseudo Countertop softlock in some games.
Final comment, @Mr Safety: All this artifact overload really calls for at least 1-2 Misdirection effects out of the board, no?
Good luck!
I updated the primer to include the newest UW and UR builds. I was going to make a new thread all together...but I think i'll slowly update this one for you guys. (Used mine and Fox's lists). I might post a mono blue list as well tough to tell which is optimal yet.
If we can give a clear consensus as to which build is optimal I will post it.
Good thoughts, thanks. I will do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
-1 Torpor Orb
+1 Academy Ruins
For the sideboard:
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Winter Orb
+2 Misdirection
+1 Torpor Orb
I like Misdirection against mid-range decks like Maverick/Jund and Grixis/4C Control, basically anything that looks to sling 2-for-1's like Hymn to Tourach and KCommand. I also like the Academy Ruins over Torpor Orb maindeck, with the Torpor Orb in the board. It's got a ton of value against Death and Taxes, a popular local choice.
I'll get a report up after the 10/26 local 1K. I was really intriqued with the suggestion you made of a threat suite of 4x Dread/Gargoyle/Scroll along with 4x Vision Charm. My gut tells me 4x Vision Charm is too many, but I don't know right now. I might cut 1 for a singleton Vapor Snag (very good against a few specific decks, most notably Dark Depths and Death's Shadow.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
Where's the Brazen Borrowers at? I feel like the card is so good as a sideboard option for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I'm having a hard time acquiring them. As far as Eldraine goes, Gargoyles were cheap and available, but I haven't been able to snag the BB's yet. If I get them they will replace the ETruths in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
Let me know how Gargoyle testing goes. I am hesitant to cut Delver for him but if he proves to be the truth I might consider it.
I am skeptical as well, especially since t1 Delver is really strong. I might end up cutting 2x Gargoyle/2x Charm to get the Delvers back in. It makes the deck a little more heavy on threats (14), which should be fine. That still gives me 24 instants/sorceries to feed delver synergies. It might be correct to just play 4 Delver/4 Dread/4 Scroll. That gives me a threat on each point of the curve. (I'm counting Dreadnougt as a 2 drop.)
One thing that is interesting about Gargoyle, in itself, is that it has 5 power. Which means, in the magical christmas-land of convenient math, 12 ('naught) + 5 (Gargoyle) + 3 (Bolt) has your opponent dead. Of course, that is a great deal of contingent things, two of which "need" Scroll to pull off, but it's not impossible, per se.
Isn’t Illusionary Mask almost strictly better than the Torpor Orb to bypass Chalice game one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Already have 4x Scroll in that list to beat Chalice. Torpor Orb is a better additional effect (if one is desired) as it both disrupts and enables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
This thread has been moving a lot faster than I expected but it’s basically as Fox said. Once you get Scroll in play you don’t need as many lands. We are mostly free/1-2 cmc besides It, and you also need juice for it. So you make lands into 2/2s as much as you can and use the gas from the draw to apply more pressure or interact. (I play 4 force will 2 force negation 4 daze as my disruption suite)Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I acknowledge this is true, but what does Fathom Seer leave on the table when your Scroll of Fate isn't there, or has been dealt with? Stifle-Nought is a strong enough combo to stand on its own, and even Stratus Dancer doesn't suck after flipping, but Seer... I can't really see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
This hint now makes me think, if playing Chalice on our own is a good idea. What do you think about a core like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Myr Superion
X Trinket Mage
4 Scroll of Fate
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
The benefits of Mask are: plays well with Chalice and does not disturb Trinket Mage (unlike Orb).
I think Trinket Mage has been too slow for legacy since late 2011. The thing about stompy shells is that they really can't handle their own variance, and this will become a more pressing problem if you're running 4x Mask on top of 4x Scroll. When we start reaching for cards like Myr Superion (which could also have been Lupine Prototype), it's best to remember that playing Goyf alongside Dreadnought disappeared in late 2011 as well. Power without protection (Sol Lands) and power without a plan (Goyf) are not the best launching point for Dreadnought.
My list runs green for Sylvan Safekeeper, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library and a small Crop Rotation package in the sideboard.
Thanks for your insights. Myr Superion was just an idea, because it can be "cast" off Mask and Scroll and is colorless (for Stompy shell). Lupine Prototype still suffers the same problem (can't attack/block most of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I am sorry, I am not too deep into the metagame in order to know, when and why certain cards (here Goyf and Trinket Mage) have disappeared from consideration.
I also know that blue Standstill variants are discussed here, but just wanted to provide some thoughts for a Stompy shell.
Also, I don't understand your last sentence. :frown: Power = Naught, protection = Sol lands (???), plan = Goyf?
The protection should come from the usual lock pieces (Spheres, Chalice).
I really have no clue if this is feasible or if it suffers from even more variance than other stompy shells, but I probably give it try.
It should run Mask main instead with Orb out of the board to augment help against aggro decks like Goblins, Elves, etc. Chalice decks are far more ubiquitous in the format. It has a wider range of what it hits, but it also depends on your entire build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Power without protection (Sol Lands) = You can play big things thanks to sol lands but have no protectionQuote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
and power without a plan (Goyf) = You play a powerfull card that won't go anywhere because you did not build around it.
That's how i interpret Fox statement.
With Sol Lands you can't really react to what your opponent is doing, you're just putting stuff on table and hoping it's good enough. When this is your game plan, we have to ask why we don't take 16 slots (Mask/Scroll/Nought/Myr) and make it 8x slots of Rabblemaster/Warboss + 8x "must-counter" cards. Dreadnought in this shell isn't enabling a novel axis of interaction, but you would have chosen a build order loss vs Null Rod effects. This is a significant problem with Null Rod on a GSZ bear and other Chalice decks (already fairly immune to your Chalice) having 4x Karn. The Sol Lands, and cards they enable, have a very hard time protecting themselves from problems like these.
Goyf builds have a 2cmc sorc-speed guy that you kinda can't ever play into open mana ~ removal (moreso if they're on SCM). Goyf is also really bad against Storm; you're just asking to die to a turn 1 discard spell if you then tap out into them. This is the "no plan" aspect of Goyf: congrats on having an efficient threat that isn't going to work and doesn't become better in the setting of Dreadnought tech. This isn't just a Goyf issue, it's any card that looks like it. We'll see if Gargoyle can play differently in the setting of Vision Charm, but I think we've got the same problem of it being a dubious 2 mana play, and waiting for 3 mana (Vision Charm to protect) has a conflict with wanting to use 3 mana on Scroll. Reversing the play pattern [i.e. no play on turn 2, Scroll in Gargoyle face-down on turn 3] is pretty risky, going all-in on combat damage in the PW-phase of the game while Daze and Wasteland are dying in your hand, but can at least be turned into 2/2s.
The no-text efficient beater really only performs in legacy if you can forego playing it because you have a Standstill-type card in your hand (ignore removal Snap-removal) - for most generic beater [Goyf] decks that Standstill-type card is Wrenn and Six.
Great analysis on the Null Rod effects issue.
However it's hard for me to follow why a Goyf-like beater is only good if you play Standstill or Wrenn & Six instead in order to ignore removal.
You want to say it's better to first stabilize the board (Standstill or recurring Wastelands) before throwing out the finishers?
Then, it doesn't explain why Goyf is bad in this deck, because you play Standstill... and it doesn't even require Vision Charm to do anything.
Goyf builds were always 3 color because going UG is suspect. The reason he fell out of favor is 3c mana bases are very suspect because of our mana base of 7 colorless lands. Its explosive but the manabase ran like 18-19 nonbasics (similiar to RUG) but only 13 colored sources. So its alot easier to get mana restricted.
I do think Goyf and Scroll could be fun tho. You would have to go something probably like (3 Factory 3 Waste 7 fetch 5 duals 2 islands.) if you run Goyf over Gargoyle and go 3c you also have zero need for vision charms
Ways that Goyf works are:
1- Goyf, opponent loses turn killing it. Next Arcanist, opponent loses turn killing it. Then JTMS or Wrenn, opponent loses the game. (you can change the card names to Strix/SCM/SFM/etc, but this is the idea behind every tap out and jam value pile that has ever existed).
2- Goyf is highest cmc threat in a low mana environment (this stopped working for RUG Delver ~5 years ago).
3- Goyf is in the deck, but the power resides in a different not-creature 2 drop payoff.
When you start stacking up 2-drop sorc-speed threats, you're not just stranding Delver/Wasteland/Daze, but you're also very likely actively reducing Delver's flip-rate. Goyf ends up pricing you into a really questionable zero-tempo quagmire, and when your fix is making 12/12s [with cards that don't really have text for of from Goyf] you're not actually getting yourself out of that situation. You'd be using Goyf to make a non-harmonious bad deck [bad = tier 2ish trading consistency for power], but the real problem is that the deck would be *worse* than existing tier 1-1.5 decks. Playing bad decks is fine, playing worse decks not so much.
I'm getting familiarized with the comp rules on phasing and manifest to prepare, but I have a question on phasing I can't seem to find the answer to (should it ever come up):
Can I phase out my Winter Orb with Vision Charm during my untap step so I can untap my lands? As I understand it, phasing happens before the untap step but Vision Charm lets me phase an artifact out at instant speed. I'm not sure if these abilities 'stack' like normal and I can phase out Winter Orb before Orb prevents my lands from untapping.
I don't think it works, because you are not allowed to cast spells during your untap step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
The earliest is the upkeep step, after all triggered abilities went on stack.
The first part of every untap step is phasing in your things, then you move to the untapping (which means Winter Orb is on again, so only 1 land untaps). Doing the Winter Orb trick while advancing a gameplan largely falls under Metallic Rebuke. There is no priority to cast Vision Charm during the untap step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety