All B/R update speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pettdan

You're entitled to not like hatebears, but do you really think any hatebears are making the format miserable? In my view, hatebears allow permanent based strategies to interact with spell based strategies. And if they are good enough they force spell based decks to play some answers to them. This makes for more interactive games and a more varied metagame, not less. If spell-based decks get to ignore permanents, that makes for more miserable games in my view..

Edit: dividing decks into spell-based vs permanent based decks is an oversimplification, I don't define them because I'm guessing the general idea is clear anyway. Hope that is fine, or else we shall discuss!

Edit2: I can see why you wouldn't want hatebears to have shroud though, and that is perfectly reasonable..

---

Yeah the good old interactive hexproof hatebear. What a joke.

It's really funny how you can complain that there are not enough good hatebears with Thalias, Gadog Teag and their friends, and yeah Mother of Runes and Karakas make them super interactive... All while there are getting new bears printed every set, while good spells are actually really rare.

@MorphBerlin: maybe it would just clog up boards and make the format worse, but I tried to explain in my last post why I don't think that would be the case. May be completely wrong.

Edit: I guess another way to see it is by asking yourself the question: when did I last see Gaddock Teeg in a top 8? Thalia apparently is a different story, but a white-green hatebear probably wouldn't see much play in a mono-white mana denial deck (and actually they already have access to Spirit of the Labyrinth which does not see much play, I believe). One can also compare this white-green hatebear with Leovold, the latter poses strong limits on all interaction with the player and his permanents (and still sees very little play in top 8's, it seems to me). I'm not sure if the proposed white-green hatebear would be better than Leovold.

As someone who has played both sides of the Storm/Teeg matchup, I can't say I've ever had a good, interesting, SKILL INTENSIVE game when this happened. Can't blame people for not wanting to expand that type of "gameplay". Yeah, it's a legit strategy and no-one's wrong for playing what wins (except Griseltards), but Legacy players, and the format managers, clearly value gameplay quality more than just pure competition.

Unfortunately Wizards has the boneheaded idea that fundamental concepts of the game, like drawing cards or interacting with the stack, have to be overwhelmingly represented in only one or two of the five colors.

There would be plenty of color pie kosher ways of introducing stack interaction to other colors. For example:

Quote:

---

Whatever the fuck 1W
Instant

Target player or permanent gains protection from the CARDNAME of your choice until end of turn.

You may exile a white card in your hand instead of paying whatever the fuck's mana cost.

---

Or some other folks were suggesting a Red Misdirection variant:

Quote:

---

Fuck your shit up 2RR
Instant

Change the target or target Instant, Sorcery, or activated ability with a single target

You may exile a Red card in your hand instead of paying this shitty card creation thread card's mana cost

---

Look ma, doesn't even interact with local Enchantments anymore; good for the color pie now MaRo.

But no, we'll just get more dudes that turn sideways, pushed U/B/G shit, and shitty johnny cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pettdan

@MorphBerlin: maybe it would just clog up boards and make the format worse, but I tried to explain in my last post why I don't think that would be the case. May be completely wrong.

Edit: I guess another way to see it is by asking yourself the question: when did I last see Gaddock Teeg in a top 8? Thalia apparently is a different story, but a white-green hatebear probably wouldn't see much play in a mono-white mana denial deck (and actually they already have access to Spirit of the Labyrinth which does not see much play, I believe). One can also compare this white-green hatebear with Leovold, the latter poses strong limits on all interaction with the player and his permanents (and still sees very little play in top 8's, it seems to me). I'm not sure if the proposed white-green hatebear would be better than Leovold.

---

Gaddock Teeg sees top8s alot in 4cLoam. The problem is that you want specifically a GW Hatebear that makes your (see signature) Maverick Tier 1. DnT and 4C-Loam are totally fine Tier1/2 options imo and are proof that hatebear-decks can top8 easily. Obviously you like to play fringe decks (see signature) which is totally fine, but to complain that there are not enough good Hatebears to make your petdeck top8 regularly is totally biased and selfish.

For your Leovold Comparison: he does not see alot of top 8 play because after all his mana cost is very prohibitive (fyi: even though people were complaining about his shitty design nonstop here as well) and Grixis is currently just better than BUG. If that changes with A.Trophy you will see Leovold again. A good comparision to me would be sanctum prelate which is insanely powerful imo and sees play. It just happens to be not GSZable. 3cmc is just alot in legacy.

@MorphBerlin: I don't argue for the decks I play, I argue for the overall health of the format. I think you're mistaken if you try to read other things into my arguments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pettdan

@MorphBerlin: I don't argue for the decks I play, I argue for the overall health of the format. I think you're mistaken if you try to read other things into my arguments.

---

So what specific problems does legacy have, that are solved by a GW hatebear (anti-blue? antispell?)?

I think there's enough cheap hexproof creatures without giving them good abilities on top of everything.

I agree with Morph and Ape, the format does not get better if WotC just prints more and uninteractive hatebears. The amount of these white and red got over the last 6 years is ridiculous and one dimensional. What colors like red, white and green need, is a way within their colorpie to INTERACT with spells on the stack. A red misdirection, a white pitch-spell to gain protection/indestuctible/hexproof/etc are all completely reasonable. There is no reason only blue gets zero-mana stack interaction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Want a game? I got Stax ready to go and it's really fun. It's quite an active deck, well, when it doesn't self distruct.

---

I think we disagree on a lot of things related to Magic philosophy, but I do get the sense that I would enjoy having a beer with you given the opportunity. If I'm ever down under I'll be sure to PM you :laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pettdan

I imagine a hexproof, or shrouded, card draw preventing hatebear would often be ignored by combo decks as they can win right through him and in addition both Ponder, Preordain, Intuition and Impulse work relatively well through it

---

These cards do use "draw," and thus would be stopped by your proposed design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pettdan

It would be more relevant vs the fair decks that depend on spot removal to get rid of opposing creatures. I can see how many would object to the printing of such a powerful hatebear but I think it perhaps might help some green, nonblue decks get on more even ground with the blue ones. And that alone would open up for other decks that would be good vs these green decks (like the combo decks, perhaps, and even other strategies).

---

I think the effect would need to be symmetrical for it to help GW more than GUx, because one W could still be splashable. If it were good enough to see play, a cheaper leovold would be a relatively easy splash for the three-color piles (though it might be cool to see a Bant pile, which this might enable if not symmetrical).

I like the idea of creating an in-between deck to create prey for some of the combo decks, but it seems a little unlikely to me. Could be wrong though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

It's really funny how you can complain that there are not enough good hatebears with Thalias, Gadog Teag and their friends, and yeah Mother of Runes and Karakas make them super interactive... All while there are getting new bears printed every set, while good spells are actually really rare.

---

This is always what makes me a little sad. Plus, the Thalia Karakas Vial interaction just feels awful (pretty cool for DnT pilots though; that deck actually is sweet, as much as I hate it...).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pettdan

I don't argue for the decks I play, I argue for the overall health of the format.

---

I do think you are genuine about what changes you think would improve legacy, but I also think Morph could be forgiven for noting that a great deal of those proposed changes would also improve the viability of non-blue midrange-ish decks, which do seem to also be what you want to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

I do think you are genuine about what changes you think would improve legacy, but I also think Morph could be forgiven for noting that a great deal of those proposed changes would also improve the viability of non-blue midrange-ish decks, which do seem to also be what you want to play.

---

Just a short reply here, I started replying to MorphBerlin and Lemnear to but works call, anyway, I actually have mostly shied away from most decks that don't play Brainstorm and as of now all my stupid, fun decks play Brainstorm.

I think it's time we just agree that brainstorm is for legacy players who self describe as needing a handicap to win and let them be :wink:.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kinda

I think it's time we just agree that brainstorm is for legacy players who self describe as needing a handicap to win and let them be :wink:.

---

I'm sorry, but that description has already been reserved for the players who run Chalice of the Void.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kinda

I think it's time we just agree that brainstorm is for legacy players who self describe as needing a handicap to win and let them be :wink:.

---

What's a card that props up utterly unplayable chunderbucket piles and makes the whole world miserable?

HINT: It's not blue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

What's a card that props up utterly unplayable chunderbucket piles and makes the whole world miserable?

HINT: It's not blue.

---

i'm just gonna go with "island".

lets play blue mirrors until we all have elo chess ratings...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I'm sorry, but that description has already been reserved for the players who run Chalice of the Void.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

What's a card that props up utterly unplayable chunderbucket piles and makes the whole world miserable?

HINT: It's not blue.

---

...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kinda

I think it's time we just agree that brainstorm is for legacy players who self describe as needing a handicap to win and let them be :wink:.

---

Oh yeah, let's light a candle for all the 200iq non-brainstormdecks in the format. So unfair!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

What's a card that props up utterly unplayable chunderbucket piles and makes the whole world miserable?

HINT: It's not blue.

---

Veteran explorer, and i'd extend that to anyone who posts in that thread too.

Flickerwisp and all things related is a close 2nd imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Veteran explorer, and i'd extend that to anyone who posts in that thread too.

---

Shots fired!

Chalice would be borderline unplayable without brainstorm and company creating a need for hyper efficiency