Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
So, I actually don't necessarily disagree with this, and did put an aside that I noted at the bottom of my post.
The difference is that in legacy, most of the combats don't really have that complexity because of the nature of the threats - if you're getting attacked by marit lage or griselbrand or TNN or a delver backed up by hyperefficient spells, it's typically more about finding the correct answer than it is about creative and risky attacks and blocks. You do get it sometimes; for instance, DnT and other equipment decks can have cool fights and tricks with other fair decks, but it isn't the norm. I'm specifically calling out the decks that use the attack step but only because it's the simplest way to go from "my chalice stops my opponent from doing anything relevant, how do I get them from 20 to zero" and things like Thought Knot Seer just have a whole bunch of things tacked onto it without asking anything of you as a player (which is also what people hate about TNN).
Also, I don't think of myself as being some savant because I play ANT - in fact, I think the deck is easier than a lot of people claim - but I do think the deck has a lot of nuances that lead to interesting games.
I agree, combat in legacy NOW is very straight forward with TNN Emrkaul Grislbrand Marit Lage. But combat in legacy was lesser straight forward years ago.
This is why i would like to have a more interactive game on the ground, creatures, trick, abilities, removal etc.
I think that the ban hammer has to it decks that refuse to interact with opponent, and oblige the opponent to dig the deck (by brainstorm ponder and other digging effect) to find that solution that they should have (i.e Abrupt decay to counterbalance or COTV) or they lose.
I like combos like ant because you can find a lot of way to decelarate them, but they have answers to your hatebears. Is fair, is deckbuilding, is strategy.
If you put a second turn omniscience fixing your hand with brainstorm\ponder first turn and having backup force and daze i think this is to easy, as it was in T1 with flesh and tinker so many years ago... when the dice roll declare the winner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
It's not that there's no value in having some decks that are more straightforward and binary, or that those decks are somehow lesser, but that it's ultimately better for the game overall if the decks that offer the best possible rewards demand more investment and rely on multiple marginal decisions rather than singular make-or-break calls. It makes the game more like chess than rock, paper, scissors, which I think is good. Obviously we don't want it to be exactly chess, variance is good for player retention/replayability/accessibility/excitement/etc, but feeling like decisions matter, even many small ones, is good.
I agree, the problem is that some card reduce the variance some much (brainstorm, ponder, impulse, preordaing, Jacestorming, for example Miracle is a deck that draws until finding the correct answer. Only dig, remove, dig, jace, dig entreat the angels.
Same for other decks that have 8 tutor for the combo like turbo dephts, too easy.
At the same time eldrazi has creature so strong, but a terrible manabase...is fair.
Ant has a lot of speed but can be slowered
The problem is that is to easy to fix hands for solutions, and to easy to deckbuild, i repeat my self but every strategies (contro, tempo,l combo or aggro) now can be done by blue deck thanks to hand fixing cards.
This is the reason why i think that there is only one card that allows this to be possible, is Brainstorm, i think this is the card that is putting homogenity in Legacy, this is the card that i would like to see banhammered.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Well, the B&R announcement snuck up on me this time, it's today (likely around 11:00am). Predictions?
Mine are:
Standard - no change
Modern - no change
Legacy - Earthcraft and/or Mind Twist unbanned
Vintage - no change
Reasoning behind unbans: control and mid-range decks are really stomping the format right now, which makes for a pretty fun atmosphere (in my opinion). Letting a couple of mediocre cards off the banlist seems fine and would likely generate even more innovation without breaking the format. Earthcraft is a combo card but is safe with all of the copies of Thoughtseize and Terminus being played. Mind Twist is a card that needs big mana to be useful, so it's really more of a prison card than actually 'fair'. Hymn will still be the card of choice I think, just for efficiency's sake. Could it go in Grixis control? Yes, but 'would it' is the question.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Well, the B&R announcement snuck up on me this time, it's today (likely around 11:00am). Predictions?
As much as I'd like to see something comes off the list, seems very unlikely they will do anything before they see what Trophy does.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Well, the B&R announcement snuck up on me this time, it's today (likely around 11:00am). Predictions?
Totally forgot about this. I bet WotC did too, therefore NO CHANGES. See you in Fall 2019 when the next DRS, SDT, TC, DTT, etc gets washed up to float on top of the cantrip tide
Re: All B/R update speculation.
My money is on no changes at all.
If there's going to be some change, Vintage is probably the most likely candidate.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
My thinking is that they just printed an instant speed Vindicate with a minimal drawback against combo decks. Not only will Spell Snare see more play (which hits Earthcraft) but Assassin's Trophy neatly deals with Earthcraft. The format is already saturated with blue control decks, some that play Wrath of God for W, others for 1WWU.
I'm not a betting man, but Earthcraft is safe. They surprised us with WGD and Black Vise; I think after the pro tour they might see that Earthcraft is fairly underpowered compared to what the format is doing.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Well, the B&R announcement snuck up on me this time, it's today (likely around 11:00am). Predictions?
Mine are:
Standard - no change
Modern - no change
Legacy - Earthcraft and/or Mind Twist unbanned
Vintage - no change
Reasoning behind unbans: control and mid-range decks are really stomping the format right now, which makes for a pretty fun atmosphere (in my opinion). Letting a couple of mediocre cards off the banlist seems fine and would likely generate even more innovation without breaking the format. Earthcraft is a combo card but is safe with all of the copies of Thoughtseize and Terminus being played. Mind Twist is a card that needs big mana to be useful, so it's really more of a prison card than actually 'fair'. Hymn will still be the card of choice I think, just for efficiency's sake. Could it go in Grixis control? Yes, but 'would it' is the question.
I think we're unlikely to see a Legacy unban. Mind Twist seems particularly egregious in the right deck, but maybe it's what the format needs. Hymn requires double black, imagine a deck like elves playing Mind Twist since the black splash is easy. Even something like Maverick could run it.
There's no way Standard sees anything since it's the start of the format.
Vintage might see another shops piece hit, but I don't know much about that format.
Modern has several unbans waiting for it, GSZ, SFM, Preordain, and Birthing Pod would all be reasonable in the format at this point. I think no changes is more likely but the format has a few unbans it can support at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
As much as I'd like to see something comes off the list, seems very unlikely they will do anything before they see what Trophy does.
I would bet good money that Trophy does nothing. It will be at most a 2 of in Modern, and I can almost guarantee it's a 0 of in Legacy, where the opponent can always fetch a basic, get a free spell on that turn, then untap and have even more mana. Trophy is no doubt versatile, and 2 mana is great, but you don't want too much of that downside.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Yea...I think I'm going to stay away from legacy for a while.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I was shocked at the Daily MTG title font. That thing is absolutely hideous.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Yea...I think I'm going to stay away from legacy for a while.
:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:
Format is incredible right now.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:
Format is incredible right now.
Feels sluggish to me.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Tittliewinks22
Feels sluggish to me.
What you call 'sluggish' I call fun; games are super interactive. The format is stabilizing into a pretty good one, I think. The top decks are Miracles, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, UWx Stoneblade, Death's Shadow, RG Lands, and Sneak and Show. Aside from Herp-Derp for combo, the format is pretty fair (Lands is arguably a combo deck as well.) It's only a matter of time before everyone is trying to 'next level' the fair metagame with bigger decks that fold to fast combo, so the cycle starts again. I'm very optimistic, it seems like the way legacy should be.
I honestly would love to see some unbans, but there is no clearly bannable card ATM, and that's fantastic in my opinion.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:
Format is incredible right now.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
...but there is no clearly bannable card ATM, and that's fantastic in my opinion.
Except cantrips.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tittliewinks22
Except cantrips.
Jesus H. Christ. Just ridiculous.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tittliewinks22
Except cantrips.
I would argue Cantrips are what is keeping fair Decks in the Metagame. Because in contrast to combo decks, fair decks looking to interact have the "wrong half Problem" (eg drawing Removal against combo). Finding answers is also harder than pursing a proactive gameplan (see Modern)
Combos decks have Tutors and other stuff to dig and achieve consistency (look at BR Reanimator, BG Depths, Lands, Elves) in my experience these decks don't seem that much less consitent than the blue decks tbh.
The Problem is that non-blue fair decks kind of get the short end of this because blue fair decks are just better versions of what they are trying to do. Exeptions are DnT and 4c Loam because they include Prision/Tax Elements.
It's pretty clear to me that at some point in eternal formats you have to apply one of these strategies (Combo/xerox/prison) to compete but some people still live in the glorious zoo vs maverick past.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Non-blue fair decks always had the problem of bad combo matchups, but could make up for that with good rates against blue decks by being more aggressive or going bigger than them.
But 6+ years of retarded blue creatures (plus cards like Terminus) have made it so something like Zoo, Jund, Junk, Maverick have not only bad combo matchups, but aren't all that favored against the fair blues either. Hard to go faster than Delver and no matter how big your Knight is, Strix and True Ape will stonewall her. Want to go into a grindy CA battle? Good luck against Snapcaster, Strix, and Jace; Bob, Bloodbraid, and, I dunno, Elspeth have nothing on them.
It makes for a dull metagame when fair Blue decks can beat their traditional predators without much, if any sacrifice, in their good matchups. If they were forced to make sacrifices, one way or the other, we'd see the old-style (pre Innitarded block) Legacy where the meta had an ebb and flow. Fair blue decks would beat combo, which would open up an opportunity for non-blue decks to go over/under them, and then combo could come back and the cycle would mostly repeat.
Much better than years of blue pretty much much dominating everything, with some token finishes for stax and combo.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brainstorm Ape
Non-blue fair decks always had the problem of bad combo matchups, but could make up for that with good rates against blue decks by being more aggressive or going bigger than them.
But 6+ years of retarded blue creatures (plus cards like Terminus) have made it so something like Zoo, Jund, Junk, Maverick have not only bad combo matchups, but aren't all that favored against the fair blues either. Hard to go faster than Delver and no matter how big your Knight is, Strix and True Ape will stonewall her. Want to go into a grindy CA battle? Good luck against Snapcaster, Strix, and Jace; Bob, Bloodbraid, and, I dunno, Elspeth have nothing on them.
It makes for a dull metagame when fair Blue decks can beat their traditional predators without much, if any sacrifice, in their good matchups. If they were forced to make sacrifices, one way or the other, we'd see the old-style (pre Innitarded block) Legacy where the meta had an ebb and flow. Fair blue decks would beat combo, which would open up an opportunity for non-blue decks to go over/under them, and then combo could come back and the cycle would mostly repeat.
Much better than years of blue pretty much much dominating everything, with some token finishes for stax and combo.
So you agree that cantrips are not actually the problem for non-blue midrange?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Non-blue fair decks play blue hosers that are worthless in combo matchups, without ways to find those hosers or appropriate cards, that's what causes the most trouble (generally). Their most powerful cards in some matchups aren't generally good against the metagame-at-large. How do non-blue fair decks actually beat blue decks? Choke, Bitterblossom, Sylvan Library. The only real generally good cards are discard, like Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach, which are a generally good cards against the metagame but in particular have overlapping value against combo and control. The problem arises when non-blue gets great disruptive starts but no threats to apply pressure, thus giving blue decks the ability to cantrip into what they need. Blue decks disrupt, then cantrip into more disruption or threats, either achieving their primary goals.
If I were to summarize my experience on why cantrips are so good, I would put it this way: they are incredibly effective at capitalizing on windows that opponents grant them. Non-blue fair decks always need the nuts while blue decks can live with mediocre plus a cantrip or two.
Is the lack of cantrips the real problem with non-blue fair decks? Not specifically Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain, no. However, leaving your deck open to random draws is foolish when every one else is 'cheating' the system. Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library aren't the same as the cantrips, but jesus Christ, if you don't have access to cantrips find a way to get something into your deck to increase consistency. You can't complain about having a headache if you haven't at least tried taking something for it, not without coming across as a whiny bitch.
