Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Doing nothing until turn 4 seems fine in legacy. Look if you aren't playing chalice on 1 or trinisphere or a 30 creature Merfolk deck you should be playing Brainstorm. It turns your second shackles into more countermagic vs. combo, and your useless divert on turn 6 into shackles against man decks. If you don't understand how a card that is a pillar of the format works then I might as well just do this
You're dramatically overstating the speed of this format right now. Against Goblins or Merfolk, yes, doing nothing until turn 4 is probably Game Over for you. But this particular metagame, which makes it enticing to MUC, is that the Aggro decks are slower, and more mid-range in nature.
Look, I understand the power of Brainstorm+fetchlands. However, it's just not necessary in a deck that is predicated upon either a.) answers or b.) raw card advantage. Brainstorm is card selection or card quality. This deck wants Card Advantage in its draw spells so that it can support all of its answers.
That's why Ancestral Vision is perfect. It's one of the few spells that creates +2 card advantage from a single draw spell. Brainstorm is inferior to Vision in this particular deck. If you want to run Brainstorm in addition to Vision, then it's certainly doable. I have simply never felt the need for it. Why insert a layer of tempo loss (paying one mana to Brainstorm) when I could just play more answers? Yes, some of those answers will be inappropriate against certain decks, but not as often as you make it out to be.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
[QUOTE=MGB;714658]It's not as bad as you make it out to be.
Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.
And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.[QUOTE]
And are you at least willing to test this, to ensure that it is, indeed, correct to not play any BS?
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kich867
That hand would lose to a decent aggro hand almost every game unless you top deck the nuts, but you can't because you aren't running Brainstorm. Like, the point he's making isn't that you won't find enough lands with 22 lands, it's that none of them are fetches and you're not running brainstorm, in a mono blue deck. There has to be -really- good reasons to not run Brainstorm. And you don't have one. In fact you're shoving extra copies of cards you don't want extra copies of in order to maintain consistency, when you could shave 1 from 4 of them, run 4 brainstorm and 8 fetches, and your deck is legit 100 times better off the bat. Don't be a hipster about it, you aren't breaching new territories by not running Brainstorm, you're willfully and purposely hurting your deck's consistency.
By simply cutting a misdirection (put it in the side), shackles, b2b, and a keg, and plopping 4 brainstorms in the deck, dropping 8 basics for 8 fetches (22 lands is perfect for a deck with brainstorm and no wastelands), you now have way more flexibility without sacrificing anything. Bad hands are good hands, things that need immediate answers can be found, you can plan out the next 3 turns and take over the game, you're less susceptible to discard, your deck becomes fundamentally better at doing exactly what you want it to, more often, without any drawbacks whatsoever.
What you're doing in this situation is adding a layer of tempo loss.
You're forcing the pilot to pay 1 blue mana for each of those answers that you have cut. That is the downside of playing Brainstorm. The upside, obviously, is that in some situations (not all of them), the playing of Brainstorm will enable you to trade one answer that is not applicable to the current situation for a different answer that *is* applicable.
However, in playtesting, I've discovered that in like 70-80% of games, I have a nice variety of answers due to this thing called "randomization". Drawing 3 Shackles in my opening hand is not the regular occurrence, believe it or not. So Brainstorm, for its card-selection usefulness, would be valuable to me in about 20% of my games. In 100% of the games in which I draw Brainstorm, I am forced to pay that tempo tax. Is it worthwhile to me to make my deck slower just so that, at most, 20% of my games feature slightly better card quality? And in those 20% of games in which I need card quality and Brainstorm is there for me ALONGSIDE a fetchland... how many of those times do I truly find a more useful solution in the top three cards of my deck? Maybe the Vedalken Shackles that I cut for that Brainstorm is what I needed and all I see on the top of my deck is more counterspells?
Maybe the Divert I cut for that Brainstorm is what I needed after playing Jace, and leaving one Island open, and opponent plays his Force of Will? Instead, I am spending that Island to fiddle with the top of my deck instead of actually countering his Force of Will with my Divert. This point can't be stated strongly enough. Paying the "tempo tax" of one blue mana in situations that happen *frequently* in Legacy can mean the difference between losing and winning. That Jace scenario - 5 Islands in play, I play Jace, opponent casts Force of Will/ Counterspell/Spell Pierce... happens often. With a Divert, I could land my Jace. With Brainstorm, I'm looking for Misdirection or Force of Will and I may not find it.
Additionally, playing Brainstorm introduces a style of play, or forces you to adhere to a style of play, that makes you feel the need to "wait" before cracking fetchlands. This deck is all about playing bombs and landing permanents and then using its countermagic to protect that. Draw-Go is not the ideal line of play with MUC anymore. Brainstorm conflicts with this style of play. It makes you conserve your fetchlands and hold your Brainstorm in hand, like a blank check, before the right time to play it. It's diametrically opposed to the style of play engendered by the other cards in this deck.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Oh my god!
Why no one told me this thread is even more hilarious than the "Old School U/W Control" Thread in the Development Section?!?!
And I was flipping tables about Nevi Disk, Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice ... While here I can find posts like "Brainstorm is inferior to Visions" and Matchup Analysis from Winterwonderland. XD
To add something constuctive: this Deck looses hard to ANY Combo or Aggro Deck of the Format. Listen to nedleeds and the community, dood
@nedleeds: I swear every time I see your Forum Name I read "NeedLED's"
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Anyway, regardless of how strongly I feel about some of this stuff, I do understand that card quality can be important over the course of a long tournament.
*If* I was to play a build with Brainstorm and fetchlands, I'd do it this way:
10 Island
1 Mountain / Volcanic Island
1 Forest / Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Divert
2 Misdirection
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 4 <Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus/Leyline of the Void>
SB: 4 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Dream Tides
If i'm playing fetchlands, I might as well take advantage of the superior Engineered Explosives. I'll either be fetching singleton basic Mountain/Forest or Volcanic Island / Tropical Island. Fetching Mountain/Forest works better with Back to Basics, obviously and maintains Wasteland-immunity whereas the duals do not.
The downside to playing fetchlands + Brainstorm is twofold: a.) the tempo tax of 1 blue mana in crucial situations when you need an answer and b.) taking damage from fetchlands, which adds up in the long run vs. aggro decks.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Oh my god!
Why no one told me this thread is even more hilarious than the "Old School U/W Control" Thread in the Development Section?!?!
And I was flipping tables about Nevi Disk, Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice ... While here I can find posts like "Brainstorm is inferior to Visions" and Matchup Analysis from Winterwonderland. XD
As good as Brainstorm is, you have to open up your mind and understand exactly what the card does. It's card quality and nothing more. You are *not* creating card advantage in any situation when you play Brainstorm from your hand. Ancestral Vision is pure card advantage. That is: it actually puts more cards in your hand then before you resolved it. More cards = more answers = what control wants.
Quote:
To add something constuctive: this Deck looses hard to ANY Combo or Aggro Deck of the Format. Listen to nedleeds and the community, dood
How can this deck lose hard to combo? It plays tons of countermagic G1, and then just boards into 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Vendilion Clique, taking out the anti-aggro stuff like Vedalken Shackles in g2 and g3.
I mean, if anything, the reason to play MUC is its ability to smash the face of all combo decks in the format with regularity.
And aggro is only a bad matchup if it's fast. Mid-rangey aggro decks like the kind that people are playing right now (BG, fatter creatures, more removal spells) is easier for MUC to face because it has a chance to stabilize .
No offense. but man, you sound incredibly ignorant about the actual mechanics of the game and the format. I mean, seriously, questioning the ability an all-blue deck packed to the gills with countermagic AND multiple anti-combo threats in the sideboard to fight combo? Not understanding the fundamental difference between "card quality" and "card advantage"?
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
May tell me how you cast counterspell off the Forest or the Mountain? Thanks.
If you feel the mana for Brainstorm is a "Tempo loss" you are playing ist wrong. Read this: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...of-brainstorm/
Vision Takes 4 turns to deliver an answer, Brainstorm delivers immediately. YOU trying to teach ME a 94' Starter and Type 1.0/1.5 Veteran kinda offends me.
@combo: you have no idea how Legacy Combo works. There are cards like Silence, Duress and Xantid Swarms among the ability to win during Turn 1/2 before your Counterspell is even castable. Brainstorm could dig Turn 1/2 for FoW but you refuse to accept that. Misdirection and Divert do nothing against combo
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Why insert a layer of tempo loss (paying one mana to Brainstorm) when I could just play more answers? Yes, some of those answers will be inappropriate against certain decks, but not as often as you make it out to be.
What Tempo are you building in a deck with no threat until like turn 5? You are clearly trolling me and I've bitten on like Oprah on a waffle. I'm out.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
It's a tempo tax. Any time you playing something with mana, you are investing tempo in it. Brainstorm by itself does nothing - it does not answer any threat. All it does is filter your hand into other answers or threats. As such, you are paying 1 blue mana for the privilege of increasing your card quality.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
What Tempo are you building in a deck with no threat until like turn 5? You are clearly trolling me and I've bitten on like Oprah on a waffle. I'm out.
You are not building your own tempo, you need to answer your opponent's tempo. All decks either build tempo or react to tempo.
Again, did you read my situation?
5 Islands in play. I cast Jace. Opponent plays Force of Will. I can either have that Divert in my hand or the Brainstorm. Which would I rather have? I can pay the U to cast Brainstorm and try to draw into one of the few remaining Misdirection or Force of Will, or I can just answer it immediately with the Divert.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
5 Islands in play. I cast Jace. Opponent plays Force of Will. I can either have that
Divert in my hand or the
Brainstorm. Which would I rather have? I can pay the U to cast Brainstorm and try to draw into one of the few remaining Misdirection or Force of Will, or I can just
answer it immediately with the Divert.
Update: The Moment you have 5 Islands in Play an average Legacy Deck either killed you or, in Case of the BGx decks, ripped your hand completely
Welcome to Legacy
Please test the Deck in a tournament before presenting ideas as facts
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Update: The Moment you have 5 Islands in Play an average Legacy Deck either killed you or, in Case of the BGx decks, ripped your hand completely
Welcome to Legacy
This is one of the most ignorant statements ever posted on this forum.
This is like Type 2 players bleating "Vintage / Legacy sux. The entire format is about killing with combo on Turn 1."
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
This is one of the most ignorant statements ever posted on this forum.
This is like Type 2 players bleating "Vintage / Legacy sux. The entire format is about killing with combo on Turn 1."
Yeah because believing you can Play 5 turns unmolested "Island, go" don't show ignorance
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Yeah because believing you can Play 5 turns unmolested "Island, go" don't show ignorance
It's not like the deck doesn't have other cards besides Islands and 4 Jace, right? Nah... My entire decklist must be 54 Islands and 4 Jace!
Wow man, you come into the thread spouting taunts and then not only do you *not* answer any of my rebuttals about your baseless accusations, but you spout ignorant, naive nonsense that would be embarrassing coming from a 10-year-old Type 2 player who just bought his first Booster Pack.
Congratulations.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Pretty sure the last page or two are part of an elaborate April Fools joke. I think you still had a few people going with the "no Brainstorm" thing, but the two off-color basic lands in a mono blue deck for EE was what really gave it away.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Have you finally put a nose in the Brainstorm Article I posted? There is a reason Brainstorm is a staple in Blue Decks for more than 10 years and you act like being smarter than ten thousands of Players during that timeframe, bringing up with flawed arguments and present "results" and "conclusion" without ever played a halfways serious tournament with the Deck or at very least a few decent kitchen table events.
You may check my tournament history, results and reports posted on this page if you think my input is "baseless". Trying to discredit a tournament players experience over mote than 15 years in the Game with nothing but Personal impressions is stupid if your intention was to gain feedback and assistance from the community.
I presented you even reasons why you overestimate the Combo and BGx Matchup but you call me ignorant instead of discussing the matter.
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Seems like you could make a case for no Brainstorm if you're running Energy Field and no fetchlands. In which case I think you'd want Preordain. It does seem very odd to not be able to filter through your cards in a deck full of answers so that you can find the right one for the situation...
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Using Force of Will to fight over a bomb is perfectly acceptable. There's a reason that Combo decks play Force of Will - to land a bomb. MUC is not much different in that regard. It plays bombs like Vedalken Shackles (bomb vs aggro that ends the game against creature decks in the long run), Back to Basics (bomb against most manabases that ends the game in the long run), Jace (complete bomb against everything that wins the game like 95% of the time it sticks on an empty board).
...
Not even gonna respond to this. My time is probably worth better than that. The funniest part is actually the fact that This whole thing is probably an attempt to troll the hell out of people. Never ever seen so many statements out of wonderland, like ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
You do realize that the Miracles player, over the course of 5+ turns will probably draw some nonbasic lands? It's not like the deck is entirely fetchlands. What is he going to do? Keep them in hand and hope for fetchlands to come his way instead? No, he will be forced to play nonbasics that he topdecks. This happens alot in these matchups. Yes, he can fetch basics with regularity, but if you think that a Miracles player can consistently stick with nothing but basics in every game, you are delusional.
Do you realise that double wasteland is not a problem to miracles? Do you realise that I PLAYED miracles (something you actually never did)?
Before telling me I am delusional, explain to me how you are supposed to never let counterbalance stick ever (20% of the time, right), never let your jace be countered ever (or let an opposing jace resolve ever) AND, at the same time, defend your back to basic, and always have ALL of the mana you need, with the list you are showing me. And against any other decks, you can also do all of this (replace counter CB by "counter anything of interest"), ALONG with protect shackles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
I've played against 12post at least 15+ times online and offline and never lost a full 2/3 sb match. The combination of Back to Basics, a plethora of countermagic that stops him from playing any relevant spell (because you don't counter the mana acceleration typically, and thus he can never land Show and Tell vs. you), Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique form the sideboard for games 2-3... It's incredibly bad matchup for 12post, and that's lots of experience talking.
Wait...you mean chalice of the void on turn 2 (with force backup) right. Becase, you know, you have like 0 ways to cast that earlier right? And without countering the mana acceleration too right? Do you seriously want me to tell you what I think about your experience when you are fighting over the fact that brainstorm is a worse card than ancestral visions at this very moment?
You know what? do you have a stream? can you Stream a daily of a bunch of matches with that deck? I want to see you play this deck. If not, does anyone have a Stream where they could play this deck? I am sure we can even kickstart the Modo tickets for this, or something. Please? someone? I would do it myself, if I played on modo :(
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
J. Rudolph's 12-Post beats the crap out of this deck in 7/7 games i've tested this evening.
Repeal > B2B
Eye of Ugin + Emrakul > MUC
Titan + GSZ + S&T > Counterspell + FoW
Misdirections and Divert are dead except against repeal.
The second or third thread is 100% from 12-post deadly to this MUC variant because in my testing i draw sooooo many bricks like Misd., Divert, Shackles and B2B which you not being able to Board Out in Game 2/3 for value
Edit: Deck looses to Meddling Mage/Needle on Jace?? X)
Re: [Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)
Lemnear: But aren't you ignoring the Tempo Tax?
