[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by Psychovoid

Played on an online magic-league tourney yesterday. It's single elimination and I was paired against Hive Mind game 1. You can check my opponent's list at http://pastebin.com/6QQp7VZK (search for "cabof", he finished 3rd). I was playing with the cards I have (no Forces yet):


Mainboard:
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
3 Island
3 Island
3 Island
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
1 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
4 High Tide
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Twincast
2 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Divert
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
2 Repeal
1 Turnabout


Game 1 he casts Show and Tell turn 3. I opt in response and find an Island (which I cheat into play with his Show and Tell). He drops Emrakul. My turn 4 I opt looking for a High Tide but got an Island instead. I drop it and pass the turn. I try to go out on the begin attack phase without a High Tide in hand. With 4 untapped lands, I tap everything and cast a Reset. He Intuitions for Force. I Twincast the Reset, untap, dig a little bit longer, and fizzle.

Game 2 he drops a Leyline of Sanctity turn 1. After some digging on our parts, he casts Show and Tell turn 4. I don't have a counter and cheat an Island into play instead. Emrakul hits the table on his side. I try to go out next turn. I resolve a High Tide on his upkeep. When I try comboing off he Intuitions for a Pact of Negation and tries to counter the Meditate. I cast Flash of Insight, some Resets, Wish, and cast Blue Zenith drawing 11 cards. I leave 4 mana open to untap but didn't get one in the 11 cards (I had cast 3 Resets already). I fizzle after some more desperate attempts of finding an untapper.

In general, I had the impression that I never came even close to winning. Keep in mind that he has 3 Emrakuls main deck, so I would need a pretty successful combo to Brain Freeze/Remand/Trap/Zenith him. Game two he even dropped a friggin' white Leyline in play. They play somewhere around 12 hard counters (4 Forces, Pact of Negations, and Intuitions). I don't know if those people who said Hive Mind is an OK matchup playtested more, but my impression is it's pretty tough.

I think I'll bleed for some Forces. That will certainly help.

EDIT:
Was browing Legacy daily results and found this Solidarity list 3-1 (search for Th00mor):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/2608689

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Sounds pretty brutal. Still that list needs 2 more turnabouts main. Might've saved you off that bad zenith. They also tap emrakul which can buy some time. Anyways, it is much harder if they go for Emrakul. Once Hive Mind is in play it's trivial to go off (no counters, double high tides). Their copy of brainfreeze won't storm. Force is also pretty important. A nice answer to Emrakul is surgical extraction. Leyline isn't something that's hard to beat though. By the time you have enough storm for a lethal brainfreeze you usually have enough cards/mana to wish for your bounce spell of choice. Or a cryptic command main can help. Also, their counters aren't as worrysome (sp?) as you might think. If they intiution for a counter they just used up their tutor trying to stop you and 3 of their counters (kind of). Pact can only be used if they are going for a hive mind kill or you have taken 5 from fetches or something or they have an insane amount of mana open (especially with the thread of EOT meditate). Flusterstorm out of the board is good too. It sounds like you had some bad luck and a not optimal list. Also, what's up with your land? Are you really running 24 lands? And only 3 fetchs? The mana base has been pretty set in stone for a long time except for the addition of an extra island or fetch here and there. It's pretty accepted that you should run 12 islands and 6 fetches with a possible extra island or fetch. 24 is way too much and 3 fetches is probably too few.

On that MODO list. Cool to see the deck doing decent somewhere. I think he probably has 1 too many lands and 4 too few forces. I don't think misstep is any kind of substitute for force.

The lands are messed up. I play 12 Islands and 6 Fetches. I put Turnabouts back in the place of the Counterspells; I was thinking about it and I agree with you that more Turnabouts might be what I need to avoid fizzling.

One thing that was possibly unclear: my opponent used Intuition to tutor up Pact of Negation after he had Emrakul in play, so he didn't need it to tutor up Show and Tell or anything. Another note is that Hive Mind plays Ancient Tomb and Grim Monolith, so paying for Pact of Negation is not hard for them.

Curious is impulse really that good?... I've been playing a list with no impulse and it has been doing quite well lately in testing.


- Edit: Decided to try impulse again, forgot how good it is.. Updated the list to my new current version

My list for reference

Maindeck:

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
1 Cryptic Command
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
2 Flusterstorm
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Mental Misstep
4 Opt
2 Pact of Negation
3 Remand
4 Reset
1 Three Wishes
3 Turnabout
2 Flooded Strand
10 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Hibernation
1 High Tide
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
2 Surgical Extraction

While this deck has many weakenesses, which prevent it from being top tier, the main problem with the deck is that it fizzles, due to A. Mana B. Card draw...hence, designed a different build to solve these problems:


4 Tolarian Winds
1 Brain Freeze
2 Noxious Revival
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
2 Deep Analysis
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Visions of Beyond
4 High Tide
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
2 Remand
4 Reset
1 Turnabout

10 Fetch
8 Island

The card disadvantage of Tolarian Winds and Noxious Revival is negated by the card draw that you get from having draw spells in the gy (deep analysis, accumulated knowledge, flash of insight, visions of beyond). Noxious revival is a catch-all that enables either a card drawing engine, or, trades surplus cards for more mana if needed.

Thirst for Knowledge is the weakest card, along with Remand...might but for +1 Visions, +1 Brainfreeze


Has been performing well, but needs work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wess

While this deck has many weakenesses, which prevent it from being top tier, the main problem with the deck is that it fizzles, due to A. Mana B. Card draw...hence, designed a different build to solve these problems:


4 Tolarian Winds
1 Brain Freeze
2 Noxious Revival
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
2 Deep Analysis
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Visions of Beyond
4 High Tide
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
2 Remand
4 Reset
1 Turnabout

10 Fetch
8 Island

The card disadvantage of Tolarian Winds and Noxious Revival is negated by the card draw that you get from having draw spells in the gy (deep analysis, accumulated knowledge, flash of insight, visions of beyond). Noxious revival is a catch-all that enables either a card drawing engine, or, trades surplus cards for more mana if needed.

Thirst for Knowledge is the weakest card, along with Remand...might but for +1 Visions, +1 Brainfreeze


Has been performing well, but needs work.

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I guess I would need to test it... but with less mana (only 1 Turnabout) and less draw (no Meditate), I don't see how this fizzles less than the classic version.

The decklist actually has a lot more draw power and mana-producing capability than the standard list. Meditate is a strong draw spell, I guess you could put 2 of them in the list, but, in the current decklist, meditate doesn't perform well. The best that you can do with meditate, is draw into a 2-mana cantrip to try and chain another meditate, which isn't very efficient.

Too often with meditate, it draws into a cantrip, which will enable you to get an untap effect, or card draw, and you fizzle due to needing both. With the new list, you draw into more draw spells, which draw into more draw+mana, etc. Once you accumulate counterspells, lands, or anything else you don't need, you cast tolarian winds to ditch the useless cards and re-stock.

The -1 turnabout never matters, due to the draw-power of the deck, and the ability to get a reset from the graveyard if needed.

Unless I'm missing something, Deep Analysis is a sorcery, and the flashback rules say treat flashback as you would an alternative cost. Therefore you cannot cast it at instant speed. So why is it in this deck at all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wess

The decklist actually has a lot more draw power and mana-producing capability than the standard list. Meditate is a strong draw spell, I guess you could put 2 of them in the list, but, in the current decklist, meditate doesn't perform well. The best that you can do with meditate, is draw into a 2-mana cantrip to try and chain another meditate, which isn't very efficient.

Too often with meditate, it draws into a cantrip, which will enable you to get an untap effect, or card draw, and you fizzle due to needing both. With the new list, you draw into more draw spells, which draw into more draw+mana, etc. Once you accumulate counterspells, lands, or anything else you don't need, you cast tolarian winds to ditch the useless cards and re-stock.

The -1 turnabout never matters, due to the draw-power of the deck, and the ability to get a reset from the graveyard if needed.

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I playtested the list a little bit (changed the two Deep Analysis for Meditates) and tried to go off by turns 4-5. The new list still fizzled.

Some impressions on card choices:

Noxious Revival may be completely dead mid-combo if you're going off with a low life total. I had it in hand when I was going to fizzle but didn't have anything relevant to bring back from the grave. And now I realized that I was bringing the card back to my hand instead of top of the library... and I still didn't like it.

Thirst for Knowledge seemed weak. And it doesn't make Visions of Beyond good. How about they unban Frantic Search instead?

Visions of Beyond looked like win-more (the times where I drew three cards I had already plenty of mana and cards already).

I did like Tolarian Winds though. It saved me once when I was going to fizzle. Multiples mid-combo are good (you put multiples on the stack and it's double insurance :), but multiples pre-combo suck. So I was thinking that 2 or 3 would work best.

I liked Accumulated Knowledge. I had never tested it before. It's good pre-combo... I don't know if it's good enough. Maybe in a list with more lands we can exchange Impulse with Peer Through Depths and dig for the AKs instead of lands to generate card advantage pre-combo?

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I'm not dismissing your ideas. I'm just giving feedback. Let me know if you find anything in testing. I'll test Tolarian Winds in the Mnemonic Nexus/Eldrazi grave-reshuffle build I mentioned a few pages back.

man i like reading jokes.... loool

Thanks for the feedback. The list does need work, its far from perfect. Tolarian Winds is a beast, pre-combo, I would ideally use it with brainstorm to keep a high tide on top deck while casting it. You might be right an cutting down to 2-3 would be better.
Also, Thirst for Knowledge is weak, I found that too, but its tough to find an instant card draw for 3+ with some GY synergy.

Will keep testing and trying to tune the list...

The current build of Solidarity is obsolete and not competative, so new builds have to be explored...or else just run Spiral Tide which is comptetative due to a card that both untaps and draws.

bring the deck u want with the exception of Reanimate and i show you how much obsolete the current solidarity's list is...

Exactly run spiral tide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wess

The current build of Solidarity is obsolete and not competative, so new builds have to be explored...or else just run Spiral Tide which is comptetative due to a card that both untaps and draws.

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Obsolete...? Why??

Guys, i wanna add misstep in my list but i find difficult the card choice for the cut.
Here's my decklist...i'd like not to read comments about the inclusion or the of Visions of beyond, but if you think that is the cut target mention it!

// Lands
11 [4E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
3 [SC] Brain Freeze
2 [US] Turnabout
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (2)
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
3 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [M12] Visions of Beyond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [8E] Hibernation


Thx!

With your list, I'd cut 1 Cryptic Command and 3 Visions of Beyond for 4 Mental Misstep.

I find that Cryptic works best as a cheeky singleton; you don't want it in your opening hand and you rarely want to see it more than once. I'd then cut Visions simply because is unneccessary in a deck still running Meditate and FoI.

That means that you would have 12 maindeck counters (4 FoW, 4 MM, 3 Remand, 1 Cryptic), which is pretty insane for a combo deck. Throw some Flusterstorm/Pact of Negation into the sideboard, and you can customise your counter package games 2&3 so that you have optimal counters for each matchup.

Edit: In some matchups, those extra counters may well come in to replace Turnabout, bringing your total counter package to ~16 against control decks. Very, very tough for them to deal with all that countermagic.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

With your list, I'd cut 1 Cryptic Command and 3 Visions of Beyond for 4 Mental Misstep.

I find that Cryptic works best as a cheeky singleton; you don't want it in your opening hand and you rarely want to see it more than once. I'd then cut Visions simply because is unneccessary in a deck still running Meditate and FoI.

That means that you would have 12 maindeck counters (4 FoW, 4 MM, 3 Remand, 1 Cryptic), which is pretty insane for a combo deck. Throw some Flusterstorm/Pact of Negation into the sideboard, and you can customise your counter package games 2&3 so that you have optimal counters for each matchup.

Edit: In some matchups, those extra counters may well come in to replace Turnabout, bringing your total counter package to ~16 against control decks. Very, very tough for them to deal with all that countermagic.

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Can you post your current list por favor :)

As requested.

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Land

12 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn

Mana/Untap

3 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Reset

Draw

3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
4 Impulse
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm

Protection

4 Force of Will
1 Cryptic Command
3 Remand

Other

2 Brain Freeze
4 Cunning Wish

Sideboard

1 High Tide
1 BSZ
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
1 Hunting Pack
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Echoing Truth
4 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

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This is what I'm testing at the moment. It's a blend of the list I took to Nationals last year, and the list I used to top 8 a local tournament last month.

Things to note:

1) I'm using Opt, not Peer Through Depths. This is a little counter intuitive, given MM hits Opt and not PtD, but I've always thought that PtD offers more raw power, and Opt offers more flexibility. In a control heavy meta I want that flexibility; Opt generates storm more efficiently, and can be squeezed in around other spells pre combo the way PtD can't.

2) I'm down to 19 lands. 20 lands was the sweet spot for PtD builds where you needed to draw into lands naturally pre combo and could bypass them post combo. With an Opt build, 19 seems to be working better.

3) Hunting Pack is back. Although I successfully removed the green splash in my last tournament (it is less important to be able to go off on turn 3 in a slower meta) I found that the deck was a little more one dimensional without the Hunting Pack win. I'm not sure if this will stay, but it's what I'm testing at the moment.

4) I'm back up to four Wishes. If I run Hunting Pack, I need four Wishes. If I drop Pack, I'll go back down to three Wishes, adding the fourth Remand.

5) Flusterstorm is better in the sideboard than Mental Mistep. In my view, MM is maindeck or nothing. I'd love to fit MM into the maindeck, but I just can't do it in a build I'm happy with right now.

I like your deck Silent Requiem. It does seem nicely balanced. I'm running mono U.
What's up with the 4th Tide in the sideboard?

I'm talking with Seraphus a lot on the lists;
Though I can't seem to find a slot in my current build for Cryptic, I'm not really missing it! It's still in the side for the moment, but it will probably will be removed entirely.

As for all; let's not forget the precious little gem named Twincast. I strongly suggest running this one (at least) in the SB.

Yeah I still have twincast as a one of in my SB. I haven't played the deck in a while but twincast was sweetness as a wish target when I played this deck.

I've never ran cryptic command in solidarity. If it were 3 mana I would run it. As it stands, it's probably a fog cantrip for 1UUU. Which isn't good enough in my book.

I've always thought about hunting pack as a wish target but then I think "eh, I have to splash" and don't. Is it really that great in here as a wish target? It is intriguing to say the least, where against aggro you can have them alpha strike but you get a 6 4/4's and wrath their board essentially and probably have some dudes leftover to bash with.

12 counterspell's MD seems a little much since the protection comes at the risk of fizzling off of cantrips, meditate, and other business spells. I'm trying to find the optimal counter package. Maybe 3 missteps, 3 FoW, and 3 remand would work. Then the rest of the deck would be 18-20 lands (playstyle choice), and the rest cantrips and the core of your business spells in 1-2 brain freeze, 3-4 wish, 3 meditate, and the mana spells of 2 turnabout and four reset's with a turnabout in the board along with high tide's of course either 4 MD or the 3/1 split between the maindeck and SB. I'm trying to flesh out an optimal list and I'm just brainstorming right now what would be the best to use.

Yeah cryptic is a bit mana intensive but i realise that its the only protection spell, besides classical counters, that survived up to now. Repeal, snap were all removed from list for any reasons...

I will never remove 2 Repeal from the maindeck! You simply can't.
As for Hunting Pack, I have the same splashing-phobia.

At the moment I'm running 4 FoW, 3 Remand, 2 Misstep. In the sideboard I'm playing 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Misstep.

I've been trying a 3/3/3 split of remand, force, and misstep (and also 1 cryptic) but I think force should really be a 4 of. There are too many times I need a force and can't find one. Misstep hasn't been as awesome as I want it to be but that's partly because I've been playing vs Hive Mind nonstop. I think I'm going to either try cutting a misstep for a force or cutting missteps altogether for 1 force, 1 remand and an island (which would make my main the same as silent requiem's previous list I think). Cryptic isn't just a 4 mana fog. It doesn't anything you need it to. I would much rather play cryptic than repeal any day. I don't see why you would want a wishable twincast. What does it do that any other card couldn't do better? What problems does hunting pack solve? Why would you go for it instead of a brain freeze kill?

EDIT: I've been thinking that maybe doing a 3/1 split of opt/peek might be a good idea. Some old lists did that or even a 2/2 split. My thinking is that opt in response to a show and tell would be very helpful vs Hive Mind.