yea i've never seen it myself. Reanimators are very greedy with 17 lands. Stifles and wastelands are game for them. They can't afford to have a colorless.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
Printable View
yea i've never seen it myself. Reanimators are very greedy with 17 lands. Stifles and wastelands are game for them. They can't afford to have a colorless.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
By waste berry is saying they will destroy (i.e. waste) Karakas with an Angel of Despair or similar reanimation target.
Went 3-0-1 splitting with a buddy who was playing an almost identical list to the 25 land list from the SCG. He said he played against Merfolk (2x) and Mask Naught.
Round 1 vs Elves! (2-1)
Took Game 1 when opponent mulled to 5. I killed a couple mana producing elves and went to town with a sword wielding Bob. He was forced to block.
Game 2 I Sword'd a Nettle Sentential... We talked about this after. It was a mistake. After talking a little, I think I'm going to save removal for mana producing elves and Symbiote though. He took this one. Combo'd off the turn before I would've been able to drop a deed with 3 mana up.
Game 3 I Killed off his guys. He had a Zenith and 2 Green sun's, which he used to find lands. But I had an active Jitte. He didn't find an answer before the game was over.
Round 2 vs Folk (2-1)
Game 1 I Mox into TS (ps. he mulled to 5 so I was terrified of the curse). He shows me lord Cursecatcher lands. I take the lord. Then block the Cursecatcher with the arbor. Sword the next lord and proceed to turn dudes sideways.
Game 2 I keep a hand with no green or black. I have 2 Swords and a dismember. He wastes the white source (Karakas) and plays a Kira. I still haven't found another land so I scoop 'em up.
Game 3 I Remember killing everything and playing an Ooze... I think it was an Ooze. Either way, it was enough.
Round 3 vs Zoo (2-0)
Game 1 - He spends his time trying to kill my guys before they get out of control. I GSZ twice and stick the second Knight. She goes to town as I had removal for all of his stuff too.
Game 2 - I waste him down to 1 land (mountain) and Turn knight sideways with the team a couple turns and kill him. He shows me his hand of Bolt (2x), Helix (2x) and Fireblast... Top card? Plateau. the Batterskull was in my hand but I didn't play it because I misplayed a couple turns before with my mana and didn't take it back as I figured, whatever. I did it. I'll take the loss if it happens. Lucky for me, I didn't have to deal with the loss.
I don't know what all was there but...
2x Our Deck
2x Merfolk
1x Mask Naught
1x Zoo
1x Bant (don't know if it had NO and/or Mystic)
1x Elves!
1x Hightide (Permanent Waves)
1x Burn
Hey guys,
So I've been testing the Mox-less build lately, to see if I can improve my threat density. i'm basically running brian fisher's maindeck, but I decided to cut 2 lands, making one of them a maze of ith, and the other a Sword (unsure which one so far, either BaM or FaF).
Can you guys explain to me why the deck would need 25 lands? i am running 24 and even that seems like way too much. Cutting Moxes doesnt really translate to playing more lands, since Moxes dont add to our land count, they just accelerate it. Im running 23 actual lands right now (and 1 Maze), and it seems more than fine. I would even consider adding another vindicate, although that card seems a bit clunky.
I'm just wondering what you guys think. Lands seems plentiful in this deck, and I'm still debating whether to run maze at all right now. It's great against decks with equipment and aggro decks in general, but terrible against combo and decks light on creatures/Control decks.
Running Maze and Karakas is pretty essential. 23-24 lands is pretty standard, because you want to consistently hit land drops, and have extra lands to chuck away for Knight.
Maze is so good because it beats up on creatures with Equipment, ad lets you get extra value out of the smaller number of creatures we run. It's VERY good.
-Matt
I find having alot of lands works well with this deck. Players should not underestimate how managreedy this deck is. SFM or GSM, both builds require ALOT of mana to function. There is no reason to just straight up lose to a single wasteland.
I can always find a way to use 5-6 mana in a single turn if you have a top in play for example. Playing alot of fetches together with top alows you to get shuffles and play threats in the same turn.
I like playing a good bunch of lands. I always feel like I can use the mana.
I appogise for for my english in advance
Yeah i see what you mean. I'm debating between having my 24th land as either a Horizon Canopy, Windswept Heath, or Maze of Ith. I'm not running any moxes, and I'm currently using a canopy. However, I'm considering just going with the Heath for the reasons you stated, fresh draws with top. In addition, it helps to get a scrubland or Bayou and have a consistent turn 2 hymn.
I played against a GSZ Rock build using the Fisher/Jaco deck (SFM package). I replaced a scrubland with a birds of paradise in the maindeck. All of our games went long and my opponent won both. I felt like the games revolved around KotR and who could get her to stick. KotR allows access to the utility lands that can change the game and gets so big that Tarmogoyf is irrelevant. My rough evaluation is the GSZ Rock is better head to head against the SFM Rock because it has access to more knights. Does anyone who has played this matchup more have any thoughts?
The game is a long attrition war, I like cards like Bojuga Bog, Deed, Volrath's stronghold. Getting a top going is key to winning such a game, finding threats and answers.
With GSZ you get acces to cards like Ooze, Thrun, Terravore. Also getting "more" knights that your opponent with GSZ.
I haven't played against the 25 land list but, It would appear that the lack of card advantage/selection may also have something to do with the list. I've found that, when playing against other Rock styled decks, card selection becomes a huge matter. Cards like Dark Confidant, Top, and Library have more value in these matches as when compared to others.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrorange
The reason is that this deck runs more removal that other decks. Typically, we run against 4-6 pieces of removal. So the limited number of threats we run, and lack of protection for them, makes it so that the ability to have some choice in cards (threat or answer) gains more value.
The GSZ lists are also able to select a moderate threat (one that must be removed but not detrimental to your own plan) to force the removal. Doing so increases the chance at the larger threats surviving. I know I don't need to say this but, the longer some creatures survive, the more value they get (Knight, Ooze, Bob). GSZ lists have the ability to select other threats to 'sacrifice' for the greater good.
Krondo9, I currently run 24 lands, 1 of which is a Maze, and although there are times when Maze is a relative blank, it pays off all those times when you fetch it up with KoTR and bounce back from a tight spot. Against combo and other decks where it's not so great, it's an easy card to board out.
Also, I've been on the fence for awhile about whether to run 2 or 3 Vindicate. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it is a bit clunky, especially in multiples. I'm running 2 right now, which feels fine with the Tops and all that digging me into them when needed.
What's your list like right now?
Right now, I'm running 3 Vindicate, but I *may* cut to 2 beacuse of all the aggro (which is a matchup where you're boarding it out). I'm also contemplating running 4 Path between the main and the side, just to shove it to those crazy aggro decks.
I want to include GSZ again, but Tarmogoyf is too good to cut (in the sense that he's a huge wall against stuff like Lackey, smaller creatures, etc.) and really does pack the beef.
I'm also running SoFaI, again, to shit on Goblins and Merfolk, and another piece of equipment: Jitte. Helps us get around Kira again, and more Equipment isn't bad with fewer creatures.
Right now, I'm thinking:
4 SFM
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 Knight
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Swords
3 Top
3 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
1 Jitte
2 Path
but I really want:
4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 SFM
4 Bob
1 Ooze
1 Birds
1 Thrun
1 BS
1 Sword
4 Swords
2-3 GSZ
2 Vindicate
3 Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
Hard to fit it all in, is the main problem. Boo for playing colours with so much good stuff.
-Matt
@Borealis I currently am still working on a list, however, here are some thoughts that I have about the current deck:
1. The choice between stoneforge and green sun is pretty dependent on the metagame. While our local metagame is more combo/midrange heavy, I believe GSZ type builds are more solid, or anything with more green basically. Obviously it loses to perish, but having gaddock teeg is awesome, and having multiple creatures off GSZ is great. While our decks thin out, the number of threats actually increases in our deck due to GSZ. I also tested Volrath's Stronghold for a while, but I am not sure if I will actually use it.
2. Stoneforge is really good against aggro IMO, since it can get you jitte and batterskull. I've never had much of a problem with zoo playing any GSZ deck, since knight trumps anything in their deck basically. However, our local also has burn decks occasionally, which are a nightmare for Junk (As evident by Brian Kibler losing to some random novice playing burn in the latest SCG Open)
3. I am also unsure about the Mox situation. It is great only in our opening hand basically, and afterwards it just gets worse and worse. While having a T1 Bob is the ideal scenario, I am unsure if it is really good, since it is card disadvantage. Also, Kibler's latest list only ran 2 Moxes, which maks me wonder if thats a build worth trying.
4. All in all, I think this deck definitely deserves some solid testing. I test regularly on cockatrice, as well as at the LGS. If any of you play on cockatrice, please reply with your username and I will add you. I have had more success in the past with a GSZ-based build, but will continuing to test to see what is the ideal deck. Unfortunately, we cant win them all :)
As an experienced GWb Maverick and Rock/Junk player, I think that GSZ is far superior to SFM. The big difference between Mav and Junk is all about wether you choose to play GSZ+SFM or Hymn to Tourach. I have been switching back and forth between both archetypes in my very bypolar meta which is comprised mainly of either a majority of combo with few control decks, or a majority of aggro with a few control decks. I think the hierarchy of cards to play in Junk decks goes as follow:
-Dark Confidant: a ticking time bomb that has to be answered, our most powerful asset.
-Green Sun's Zenith: the most versatile card you can play, a cost-effective tutor that increases our threat density and fetches silver bullets.
-Hymn to Tourach: one of the most unfair cards you can play early. Hymn can outright win us a match and is never a losing trade. Can be a dead card in later stages and wars of attrition (rare scenarios).
-Stoneforge Mystic: dominates aggro and aggro/control matchups on its own with built-in card advantage. She fixes some of the health issues that can arise midgame from Bob, TS, and of course, your opponent beating your face. She is, however, worthless against combo decks.
With that being said, I don't think we can incorporate all of those cards in a single deck and SFM is the first thing I would cut. I think we should discuss Hymn vs SFM rather than GSZ vs SFM.
Cards like KotR, Vindicate, and Thoughtseize are pretty much auto-includes in every respectable Junk deck. They are easy inclusions that don't shape your deck any differently than another Junk/Rock/Mav deck.
I am currently satisfied with my current list and I favor Hymn over SFM for a few reasons:
-Hymn affects every archetype except Dredge
-Artifact hate is dead against me
-I can play my own global Artifact Hate
Creatures (18)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells (19)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Plague
1 Karakas
I use Stony Silence over Null Rod and Serenity because it is harder to hate on than Null Rod and affects Combo decks more than Serenity. CoP: Red is my second Progenitus hate card (along with Metamorph) and gives me a chance against Burn, which is difficult without SFM and relies heavily on early Hymns. Dredge and Reanimator are extremely easy for this deck to handle. This sideboard also offers good combo hate to complement Gaddock/GSZ. The aggro matchup is a bit tougher than it used to be with SFM but it is still heavily hated with 10 Removal spells and KotR, Goyf, and Witness.
Any suggestions for improvement?
I agree with the direction you are taking the deck. I would play more BoPs instead of Nobles, they enable Hymns and Vindicates easier. 1 Gaea's Gradle woud also be nice to fetch with Knight. I'd also try to squeeze Jittes and Liliana the Veil there somewhere, its completely nuts against Reanimator (they usually name white with Iona).Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
List for reference:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize (the split with IoK you had might work as well)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Overall I agree with Qweerios. Stoneforge Mystic is best backed up by counterspells.
Your list doesn't have top, I think it's a key card in Rock. I also like Jitte and you could maybe cut 1 Vindicate. Otherwise I am not really sold on Hierarchs and the Witness.
Other cards to consider in your sideboard: Pernicious Deed, Dueling Grounds, Thrun the trollface.
I had some ok results with mother of runes, the card is really good together with the silver bullets. For example: I played turn 1 discard, turn 2mom, turn 3 GSZ-> Teeg against Time Spiral and he was just cold to it. Same with lists playing snapcaster mage, sure they get to reuse the StP, but mom will protect your guys, even more brutal with ooze in play. The card can be a devastating and just a blank at other times. I am going to play a bit more with Mom in a GSZ list without Vindicates/Pulse, I shall report my findings in this thread.
Hey Qweerios. Would replacing a Pridemage with a Tarmogoyf (leaving you with one silver bullet Pridemage) help shore up aggro matchups a bit? I am planning on using a GSZ list in the very near future. The Enlightened Tutor board is interesting. You might consider fitting a Choke into your SB. If you have chance can you outline your SB ins and outs for common match ups?
Qweerios I just tested out your list. I really like the krosan grips and the eternal witness. I hadn't really thought of her, but I think she might be one of the best silver bullets we can have right now, since people dont see it coming at all. its good card advantage as well, netting us either a threat or removal alongside a 2/1 body. I will continue testing this. I havent faced aggro yet, although I still kind of like umezawa's jitte, but I will try out the paths instead.
I only play Tarmogoyf as a 1of and it is strictly because I don't pack equipments. Goyf isn't as impressive as his price tag and mostly shines in fast decks. Being a midrange deck, Goyf loses his charm and I only really fetch him when I need a beater and KotR isn't big enough. Besides, when you gain control of the board, it doesn't really matter if you're beating your opponent for 3-4 with a Qasali or for 4-5 with a Goyf.
On another note, I have been going toe-to-toe with a very strong Maverick player in my region with this deck. When I say that my list is well equipped against combo and control, by no means is it a tradeoff against aggro. I have had great success pre-board and post-board against many aggro, and aggro-control variants such as: Esperblade, Deadguy, Tempo Fae, Canadian *****, NO RUG, StifleNought, Goblins, The Gate, Stoneblade, Maverick, etc... The Enlightened Tutor package is only there for matchups that require specific hate and does not rely on card advantage. I used to pack Choke and Dueling Grounds but they are not cards you want to tutor for ever because ET leaves you with 1 less card in hand and lets your opponent know what hate you are going to draw. Against most of the decks mentionned above, KGrips and PTE are enough and replace the more situational cards in the mainboard (Bog, Teeg, Ooze, Qasali, etc...). Only against NO RUG do I bring in Tutors, Metamorph, and CoP: Red because I can afford the card disadvantage of fetching a silver bullet when they use NO. the Tutor package shrines the most against combo decks such as A.N.T, Belcher, Four Horsemen, Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, MUD, Burn, Enchantress(Eplague on Druids + Canonist :P) and more...
As for Jitte, I personally don't like it maindeck without SFM. It's one of those cards that either nails your opponent to his deathbed, or simply isn't optimal. The idea that I can't use a card without another (can't use equipments without creatures) isn't something I want for my mainboard. SFM provides the equipment free-of-charge when you play the creature so I see no problems with mainboard Jitte there.
Top is always a good card and could well be in this list as a 1-3 of. I don't play it because I hate it. Top is an abomination. I hate when games go to "time" because my opponent takes 15-50 seconds every turn to top and fetch. It takes the pleasure out of the game and I don't want to be a part of it.
2 IoK and 2 TS vs 4 TS.
In the Legacy format, there are only a handful of cards that TS gets rid of that IoK cannot (NO, Jace, Batterskull, Ad Nauseam, Empty of Warrens, Obliterator, Humility, Moat, FoW, etc...). Those cards are very specific to a handful of archetypes and aren't always the choice you have to make when choosing what card you want your opponent to discard. Losing 2 life however, has a much bigger impact on a wider variety of decks. Your life total is precious against anything fast or all-in such as Goblins, Eva Green, Zoo, Sligh, Burn, Merfolk, Affinity, Stompy, etc... With that in mind, TS is a card I really only want to see once a game (as early as possible), and absolutely NOT twice during any game because the second discard spell usually doesn't have any 3cc+ targets (it is either in play or previously discarded). I think that 2-3 TS is ideal, fill in the gaps with IoK. Oh, and please don't say TS hits FoW... you play Junk, FoW should make you smile.
BoP vs Noble.
I played 4 BoP at some point and regretted it (with 4 Sinkholes and 4 Hymns, it is posted a few pages back). Being able to produce black mana is minor when compared to exalted. A T1 Noble doesn't prevent me from casting a T2 or T3 Hymn and the Exalted mechanic gives me more value out of my T2 Bob or Qasali. Flying is only relevant when using a Sword of X and Y or when your bird is exalted twice or more.
I haven't tested Liliana in this deck yet but I am not sure if she would be fitting. I don't really see how we can abuse her discard ability and additional Sac effects seem win-more. I prefer Vindicate to Liliana. Besides, her price tag is massively inflated.
Hey Qweerios. I have put the deck together. My sideboard is very close to yours, but I don't have all of the enchantments yet. The deck is very powerful game 1 vs. Dredge (and presumably reanimator). Ooze certainly feels like the real deal in combination with GSZ in this matchup. The deck also seems decent against Team America with Snapcaster (only other match played so far). One thing I noticed postboard against dredge is that I really wanted to fetch a Savannah to have up green with an ooze in play and white for enlightened tutor. This might show up in other scenarios in the beginning of the game so I am going to replace a Bayou with a Savannah.
I am only running one Pridemage MD at this point. I am also running Top (online this is fast). I am going to try running 4x IoK and zero Seize. I have a problem with aggro decks knocking out my life. We'll see what happens in the face of Jace and other 4+ spells.