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i think it's really a situational question.
you can always survive without any card in the deck narco or icho or bridge etc but in some situation being prived of one buys enough time for opponent to win.
So there isn't a right answer for your question , just analyze his grave and guess what will put him in big trouble.
I don't know if I agree. I've won countless times with my opponent Extracting my Bridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
On the other hand I've almost never won if my opponent targets my Narcomoebas (especially one Dredged into).
Surgical Extraction against Manaless Dredge is like throwing a pebble at a freight train.
A well-timed Surgical can be good, but more often than not it's relatively ineffective (especially if your opponent targets a dredger early and you respond with a Street Wraith activation).
I know what you mean but I feel Extraction on Narcomoeba is like a kick in the nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
The new decklist looks very intriguing, congrats to Hollywood for his recent finish with it. Not sure if this is a naive question but how does this deck handle opening hand situations post-SB? What I mean is, the list doesn't look capable of handling a resolved RiP or Cage. I understand it plays with 8 pitch counters post-SB, however doesn't guarantee one (along with an appropriate blue card) will be in the opening hand. And since it's manaless, every mulligan essentially is a free timewalk for the opponent. Thanks and keep dredging!
I know the merits of the Blue SB, but I don't feel like buying FoWs (I hate the card), so instead I play the Green SB with Claims/Silences to destroy opposing troublesome enchantments. It's been working for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
There's also no guarantee an opponent will open with a piece of hate (namely Cage or Rest in Peace), and even if they do, they will likely mulligan for it because they know what it means against this deck. Every card down in an opponent's hand means one less chance of opening with hate. When playing with a green sideboard, you need to open with a mana source and a removal spell - which is for all intents and purposes the same as needing to open with a counter and blue card.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
The counter package is much more robust in that you're not hoping and praying your Arbor doesn't get Plowed or Wasted. Force and Shoal stop the problem...before it actually becomes a problem. If either Cage of Rest in Peace resolve, you do lose the game. However, in the amount of time the green package necessitates killing a hate card, your opponent is drawing counterspells or building board presence to the point where removal becomes moot.
Basically, you really do have an excellent chance opening with a counter and a blue card to stop hate from resolving. The only two hate cards we care about are Rest in Peace and Cage, and they only usually come in droves out of sideboards in totals of three or four, max.
Ha ha, yeah I must have rushed that post a bit and not proof read it > must have been game 2 I had the Faerie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I agree here. Most of the time I find that Extraction only slows us down, although taking our Dread Returns against a deck running stuff like Ensnaring Bridges really sucks...Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
In practice, we should expect Cage of Peace > I wouldn't consider using counter on extraction, as they may be foxing to get you to spend it, then land a Cage of Peace.
Theres no killing dredge.....EVER. Its essentially comparable to jason vorhees, you can slow him down but one never completely escapes him (dredge).
Actually, killing dredge is easy. There are three cards that can just completely blow us out, all of which can come down on, or before turn 2, without any acceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
And many more that can be difficult to play around, or slow us down considerably.
The deck is the definition of a glass cannon IME, albeit a good one, as interacting/stopping us really just comes down to these main hate cards.
More or less that its always gonna be a boogey-man deck....watching scary movies...kinda got me in the mood. I know cards shut this deck down. Everyone who has ever played against, with or heard of dredge knows that....but thanks. Simply implying that the deck has relative" horror " flavor that makes this deck so appealing to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
No worries.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
I'm new to this thread, but I have been screwing around with Manaless Dredge for a while on my own. However, it always bummed me out to just flat out lose whenever an opponent resolved a Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's or the like. I tried the green sideboard with lands and Nature's Claim/Reverent Silence, but I never really liked it. This new blue splash, however, looks much more promising to me. I don't have shoals at the moment (they should be in the mail though), but I tried running FOW main at my last tournament, and the look on people's faces when I countered their spells was priceless:-)
Now, I read Hollywood's report (well done by the way, both on the result and the report), and I have some questions regarding sideboarding. It seems that we quite often want to board in a lot of cards, but what do take out? For instance, against Storm or Belcher you might want at least the fourth FOW and the four Leylines, and possibly Shoals(?). But what do you cut? Likewise, against U/W/R Delver you would want the last FOW as well as the Shoals, but again what do you cut?
I don't usually run Faeries main, so my inclination is to board out Nether Shadow against fast combo decks, because we are not going to win by grinding him out. But I have a sneaking suspicion, that this might be wrong, or at least that my reasoning might be flawed. And I honestly don't know what to cut against Delver and control, so here I mostly just shave some numbers here and there.
Any tips or pointers that could help me out would be much appreciated. :tongue:
I'm interested to see what everyone else's input on this is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Tator
Sideboard plans are always gonna be about what hate you expect to see, and how u might expect to win.
I'm runnin Force in the main, with my side comprising of 4 Faerie Macabre, 4 Blue Shoal, 4 Contagion, 3 Mindbreak Trap.
Storm (in general);
+3 Trap, +4 Shoal
-2 Shadow, -2 D.R., -1 Flayer, -1 Shell, -1 Phants.
UWR Delver;
This used to be a deck with weenies we could kill quickly to reduce their advantage considerably. Then they printed TNN, and this deck now runs Jitte, Batterskull and also Engineered Explosives.
They usually run a mix of Grafdigger's Cage, Meddling Mage and RiP. In my experience, Mage players usually name Therapy or Dread Return.
I usually start with this;
+ 4 Blue Shoal, +1 Contagion
-4 D.R., -1 Flayer (cos Mage sucks out the fun)
I typically don't find COntagion that useful in this matchup, as the only useful targets are Delver, or a tempo measure (nailing SFM to prevent them tapping it for batterskull). TNN does put us on a clock, especially should they land a Batterskull, so I don't wanna drop any acceleration.
That said, you could always up the number of contagion, as it is useful to kill your own creatures too.
Almost all the other decks, my side plan will depend on whether I expect to see RiP, Cage, LotV, DRS, Ooze etc...
I board out Gitaxian Probe for the other blue cards rather often, and then just cut 1x of the weaker, redundant cards like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow, Phantasmagorian and Dread Return for the rest.
I see phantasmagorian like the heart of the deck. Which is the basis for cutting it
Why would you board out Probe when it's the only blue card able to be exiled to satisfy Shoal against Cage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Force counters everything, but Shoal is conditional. I agree with trimming redundant cards, but I don't see the value in cutting a card that has built-in synergy against one-half of the most prolific hate cards we have to contend with.
Also, never cut all four Dread Returns - ever. The card is too important to kick aside and is more than just a combo element - it's a token generator. I mean, going down to three or two I can see. But never all four.
LOL. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I just coughed my arse out my neck and back again. What a hell of an aftertaste... Damn you!
Yeah I don't ever side out Probe's and bring in Shoal's > there are just so many good 1-drops in legacy we could potentially stop, not to mention the interaction with Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
But don't drop all Dread Return?
Majority of the time I agree here, as Rider seems to always be in the deck now we have the blue side.
In the instance above, UWR Delver > they usually seem to run at least 3 to 4 grave-hate (cage and/or RiP) and usually run a full four Meddling Mage from the side. Whenever I've faced this matchup I struggle to cast Dread Return (c/o swords to plowshares vs Ickys) and even if I'm in a position to cast it, Meddling Mage usually prevents me.
Granted, Shoal/Force improves this matchup a lot, but I feel like D.R. is a low % play here > I can't recall ever actually casting it against this deck after game1.
But your point of token generation is a valid one > ... please educate me if I'm missing something.
You just can't overly rely on Ichorids to get the job done. They'll either get Plowed or you won't hit them in time. Dread Return transforms Shadows and Narcomoebas into zombies and something else. That's what makes it worthwhile.
It basically turns less scary threats into a full-blown zombie invasion.
Why would you side out Flayer? Wouldn't you want to keep it in to give you the possibility of a fast combo kill? I mean, counterspells will only buy you so much time against Storm, so you would need to kill your opponent pretty fast, before he gets to reload and go off again?Quote:
Originally Posted by slave