[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by Sunday Funday

Wow 2 compulsive research and 2 pyroblast main deck. Is compulsive research the next best draw spell since losing cruise? I feel like there must be some instant alternative...

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I've thought a lot about this since the Dig ban, for both UR and Grixis. Predict is the only thing I can think of that can generate the same amount of raw card advantage at instant speed for an affordable cost, but is obviously conditional. Magmatic Insight is another option, probably somewhat stronger if you're playing Daze. Painful Truths and Read the Bones are both somewhat playable if you splash black, as are Night's Whisper and Skeletal Scrying, but none of them are particularly attractive. Ancestral Vision requires very little mana investment but does require a time investment, which doesn't strike me as something this deck wants to deal with. Deep Analysis is powerful but doesn't synergize well with the deck since there aren't a lot of discard outlets.

If somebody knows something better, feel free to share.

EDIT: I just noticed something about Eli's list: we seem to be on a lot of the same wavelengths.

- I said I didn't like Chain Lightning. Zero Chain Lightnings in his list.
- I said I didn't like PoP because Wasteland was too essential. Zero PoPs, 4 Wastelands.
- I said I didn't like Snapcaster. Zero Snapcasters.
- I said I didn't like my only counters being Force of Will. He played Daze, and even Pyroblast, main.
- I suggested Delve spells. He's got a Set Adrift in the side.
- I suggested card draw of some kind. He went with Compulsive Research, which seemed to work out alright for him.

And to keep things fair, the points he didn't align with:
- Didn't change the Swiftspear count. I'm not surprised about this one. It's not a card you can cut or decrease the count of. This point was more of an observation of something I didn't like about the deck.
- No Mizzium Skin.
- No evasion-granting effects.

Suffice it to say, I approve.

Also, I'm not sure what he played against, but that Top 8 is just a Greatest Hits list of terrible matchups. Lands, Miracles, Aggro Loam, and Death and Taxes. All of them mediocre-to-bad; Lands is probably the best matchup, followed by Aggro Loam, which is saying something. This is fairly representative of my local metagame, with the exception that there is a conspicuous absence of Storm, which probably were ground out in the middle rounds of Swiss, along with the Delver decks that ran into these buzzsaws. My decision to move on from this deck is probably influenced by this metagame composition.

Hey guys, I was wondering, how do you feel about sideboard Teferi's Response against decks like D&T and Lands that have 8 lands that target ours? The card advantage it generates could set us ahead in those matches. It doesn't seem very good against wasteland because we would have to keep mana up (since they do it anytime), but they always port us in the upkeep or draw step, so we always have the mana up when they try to port us.

It might be a minor thing, but the fact that you will (almost) always cast it in your turn means that it will trigger prowess

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Originally Posted by Delvis

I've thought a lot about this since the Dig ban, for both UR and Grixis. Predict is the only thing I can think of that can generate the same amount of raw card advantage at instant speed for an affordable cost, but is obviously conditional. Magmatic Insight is another option, probably somewhat stronger if you're playing Daze. Painful Truths and Read the Bones are both somewhat playable if you splash black, as are Night's Whisper and Skeletal Scrying, but none of them are particularly attractive. Ancestral Vision requires very little mana investment but does require a time investment, which doesn't strike me as something this deck wants to deal with. Deep Analysis is powerful but doesn't synergize well with the deck since there aren't a lot of discard outlets.

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One thing I've been considering is running a Day's Undoing/Final Fortune combo, especially since we're already running the Stifles that also hit the Final Fortune trigger. The way it works is:

-Cast FF in their endstep
-Move to your extra turn
-Do whatever, cast Day's Undoing (you skip the end step of the extra turn and don't lose)
-Move to your actual turn with a full grip

Having 8 haste creatures and getting ahead by a land drop can create a huge advantage.

Another idea is simply to run Browbeat. I know, but... while 5 to the dome plus however many Prowess triggers isn't exactly the same as ripping 3 off the top, it's not that much different in this deck. If you have a decent start, by the time you're casting your draw spell -- they may not be in the position to take 5 anyway. And if you really need the cards, but they take the damage... Compulsive Research probably wasn't going to do too much for you anyway.

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Originally Posted by maharis

One thing I've been considering is running a Day's Undoing/Final Fortune combo, especially since we're already running the Stifles that also hit the Final Fortune trigger. The way it works is:

-Cast FF in their endstep
-Move to your extra turn
-Do whatever, cast Day's Undoing (you skip the end step of the extra turn and don't lose)
-Move to your actual turn with a full grip

Having 8 haste creatures and getting ahead by a land drop can create a huge advantage.

Another idea is simply to run Browbeat. I know, but... while 5 to the dome plus however many Prowess triggers isn't exactly the same as ripping 3 off the top, it's not that much different in this deck. If you have a decent start, by the time you're casting your draw spell -- they may not be in the position to take 5 anyway. And if you really need the cards, but they take the damage... Compulsive Research probably wasn't going to do too much for you anyway.

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Browbeat may work. I was always thinking that. If they are down to 10 life, I don't think they will risk paying 5 for browbeat against a burn deck.

Cerebral Vortex seems worth considering in the world of 3 mana cards. If they Brainstorm during their turn this can do 6 damage to them. You can always do 3, or 2 plus prowess. Otherwise, you can draw 2 cards at instant speed. I dunno, it seems at least as good as Browbeat since you get to be the one who makes the decision.

Hey you notice all your stuff is wizards? there's gotta be some sort of payoff for that right? like patron wizard or cavern or riptide lab or something? voidmage prodigy is probably terrible, but idk maybe there's some guy who draws cards i'm not thinking of.

I'm not even sure if I'm trolling you or not at this point. Lets say I'm half serious.

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Originally Posted by Wordslinger

Hey you notice all your stuff is wizards? there's gotta be some sort of payoff for that right? like patron wizard or cavern or riptide lab or something? voidmage prodigy is probably terrible, but idk maybe there's some guy who draws cards i'm not thinking of.

I'm not even sure if I'm trolling you or not at this point. Lets say I'm half serious.

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I'd be a very happy man if I saw a new thread entitled "Burning Mages" on DTB

PS.: Now I got curious, there gotta be some thread on developing decks about wizards, right?

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Originally Posted by maharis

One thing I've been considering is running a Day's Undoing/Final Fortune combo, especially since we're already running the Stifles

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Now I got confused, are we really using stifles? Not trying to be a jerk here, I just don't remember seeing it.

I just got one question, if we are moving away from PoP and playing stifles and waste, why not play 4 color or rug delver? I don't think UR can play the mana denial role better than those decks.

I got pretty excited about Kassis' result with UR Delver Prowess, the printing of Stormchaser Mage seems like a really good thing for UR Delver decks!

How do you guys feel about playing 17 lands instead of 18, if not playing wasteland and playing 4 gitaxian probe? I'll stick to the PoP plan, it's just too strong in my meta.

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Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer

Now I got confused, are we really using stifles? Not trying to be a jerk here, I just don't remember seeing it.

I just got one question, if we are moving away from PoP and playing stifles and waste, why not play 4 color or rug delver? I don't think UR can play the mana denial role better than those decks.

I got pretty excited about Kassis' result with UR Delver Prowess, the printing of Stormchaser Mage seems like a really good thing for UR Delver decks!

How do you guys feel about playing 17 lands instead of 18, if not playing wasteland and playing 4 gitaxian probe? I'll stick to the PoP plan, it's just too strong in my meta.

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My bad, I thought Eli played Stifles. I agree with you on Wasteland though, it doesn't trigger prowess or cast anything in the deck, and without stifle it's not like we're fully committed to mana denial.

I prefer stifle to wasteland if you're only going to play one because Stifle can "counter" trouble cards like Ancestral Visions, Terminus, Stoneforge Mystic, Deathrite in a pinch, probably others I'm missing (Tendrils?). Also pitches to force/triggers prowess.

I'm not sure the FF/Day's package is worth anything but I'm intrigued by the concept. I think Stormchaser might be a game changer for the idea because it gives you an evasive haste threat to play after your Daze and get super far ahead if not outright win that turn.


Drafted this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Chain Lightning (Forked Bolt?)
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Final Fortune
2 Day's Undoing

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Steam Vents

I like Vents over a second mountain, both cards suck with daze but at least this card is live with daze.

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Originally Posted by maharis

My bad, I thought Eli played Stifles. I agree with you on Wasteland though, it doesn't trigger prowess or cast anything in the deck, and without stifle it's not like we're fully committed to mana denial.


Drafted this list:

2 Chain Lightning (Forked Bolt?)
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Final Fortune

1 Steam Vents

I like Vents over a second mountain, both cards suck with daze but at least this card is live with daze.

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Run a third island over steam vents, how often are you fetching for a fifth dual? the downside of a shock land is real bad with daze. I would suggest cutting chain lightning and increase your git probes to a four of. cut final fortune, the combo is cute but unreliable add a card like slip through space it's a cantrip that enables evasion and triggers prowess and doesn't run the risk of us losing the game on the spot. I like the wasteland stifle package but there might not be room in this deck for it.

It's not really about fetching for the 5th dual as much as just expecting that in a 16 land deck there are going to be situations where you have to keep a one-lander and having the extra dual source, despite the 2 life, is better than getting stuck on mountain-delver-daze-daze-brainstorm-swiftspear or something.

I'm fully prepared for FF to be jank but I want to try to live the dream at least once. Just waiting for the cards to arrive.

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Originally Posted by maharis

It's not really about fetching for the 5th dual as much as just expecting that in a 16 land deck there are going to be situations where you have to keep a one-lander and having the extra dual source, despite the 2 life, is better than getting stuck on mountain-delver-daze-daze-brainstorm-swiftspear or something.

I'm fully prepared for FF to be jank but I want to try to live the dream at least once. Just waiting for the cards to arrive.

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I hope it works out for you. It is an interesting idea. I plan on putting together a variation of this list and trying it out real soon. If anything comes from it I'll post. Days undoing is absurd in this deck and worth looking into. Given your reasoning for the steam vents I'm wondering if a polluted delta might be a better option. I know the two life doesn't seem important but I think I would prefer to draw a fetch in an opener as opposed to a shock.

I'm leaning something along these lines:

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
2 Day's Undoing
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Ponder
2 Price of Progress
3 Slip Through Space
4 Stormchaser Mage

Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction

How do you guys feel about Distortion Strike instead of Slip Through Space?

Pros:

-It gives 1 more damage per casting;
-The advantage it generates doesn't require extra mana (you only pay the casting cost once);
-It assures you 2 casting of itself.

Cons:

-The advantage will only be "cashed in" in the next turn;
-The second cast may be useless (if your creatures are removed in the mean time or in response);

But still, I think a Swiftspear connecting twice against blockers with +2/+1 sounds very great to me. Specially against decks with fatties that get hit some ammount of times until block the ground (with goyf usually).

I may have missed something, but it sounds really like a cooler "burn" spell to me.

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Originally Posted by maharis

It's not really about fetching for the 5th dual as much as just expecting that in a 16 land deck there are going to be situations where you have to keep a one-lander and having the extra dual source, despite the 2 life, is better than getting stuck on mountain-delver-daze-daze-brainstorm-swiftspear or something.

I'm fully prepared for FF to be jank but I want to try to live the dream at least once. Just waiting for the cards to arrive.

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In that same situation, you should be playing an extra fetch land instead of a shock, the times that you'd draw the shock or fetch, the fetch does the exact same thing for 1 less life (apart from stifle). The day's undoing seems really bad, but that's just me

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Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer

How do you guys feel about Distortion Strike instead of Slip Through Space?

Pros:

-It gives 1 more damage per casting;
-The advantage it generates doesn't require extra mana (you only pay the casting cost once);
-It assures you 2 casting of itself.

Cons:

-The advantage will only be "cashed in" in the next turn;
-The second cast may be useless (if your creatures are removed in the mean time or in response);

But still, I think a Swiftspear connecting twice against blockers with +2/+1 sounds very great to me. Specially against decks with fatties that get hit some ammount of times until block the ground (with goyf usually).

I may have missed something, but it sounds really like a cooler "burn" spell to me.

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Distortion strike is fine. I prefer the cantrip and potential to use the spell right away. My biggest problem with this deck has been keeping cards in hand which is an important element of prowess. Even modern infect is moving towards slip through space instead of distortion strike. Spells replacing themselves in hand is amazing.

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Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer

I'd be a very happy man if I saw a new thread entitled "Burning Mages" on DTB

PS.: Now I got curious, there gotta be some thread on developing decks about wizards, right?

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I think most of the Wizard tribal decks revolve around Patron Wizard, and largely in a Merfolk style shell. Would be interesting to see something else. Cavern of Souls seems worth playing at least 1 for uncounterable threats even in the UR shell though.

Just came here to say my really loud opinion that Kiln Fiend > StormChaser mage. If you drop kiln fiend on turn 2 you immediately threaten turn 3 win because it's legacy and that's how legacy works because brainstorm + kiln fiend will often times kill (not to mention you have enough removal spells to actually have him hit through anything).

Yeah, except haste and flying are better reasons to play Mage over Fiend than threatening to win on turn 3 is to play fiend over mage.

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Originally Posted by monovfox

Just came here to say my really loud opinion that Kiln Fiend > StormChaser mage. If you drop kiln fiend on turn 2 you immediately threaten turn 3 win because it's legacy and that's how legacy works because brainstorm + kiln fiend will often times kill (not to mention you have enough removal spells to actually have him hit through anything).

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Yeah, except haste and flying are better reasons to play Mage over Fiend than threatening to win on turn 3 is to play fiend over mage.

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Good points but I feel like if we are playing distortion strike or slip through space anyways, kiln fiend will probably be the better choice since it hits harder and will steal games.

If you want to go with this plan you could splash green for Berserk. Distortion Strike + Assault Strobe + Berserk + Prowess (in one form or another) seems like a lot of fun.

That sequence on a Kiln Fiend deals 40 damage, on a Stormchaser or Swiftspear it nets you 16 damage. In all cases it folds to Abrupt Decay/StP and in case of the Kiln Fiend Lightning Bolt though.

You might be able to incorporate Invigorate in the sequence. It gets multiplied by 4 and gives you an additional Prowess/Kiln Fiend trigger times 4 as well, which equates to 20/28 additional damage at the price of 4 life for your opponent so another 16/24 net damage.

Who needs infect, lol.