[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

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Originally Posted by wnorris

Hey guys,
I played at a GPT today and ended up 3-2. It was good overall. I lost pretty hard to lands, which I was okay with. I didn't expect to see it and payed for it! I'll explain some very last minute deck change decisions I made below.

The List:

Creatures:
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf

Instants/Sorceries
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Ponder
1x Thoughtseize

[U]Really good three drops
2x Liliana of the Veil

Lands
2x Bayou
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

SIde:

1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x disfigure
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Spell Pierce
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique

I was planning on running 2 dark confidant instead of the Anglers. But after debating Tombstalker vs Gangler vs Bob the entire way there, I sort of just bet on the 1 black being worth it and went with Angler. I wasn't sure if I wanted another double black spell in my deck, and sometimes only needing 1 black up for Angler meant casting it with a U sea and Trop in play (there were so many wastelands)

Game 1: Death and Taxes (1-2) My opponent goes on to win the GPT haha

R1: Win; I play DRS into turn 2 Hymn and wasteland his Karakas (Fantastic opener, this deck is insane sometimes). Turn 3 I play goyf and beat him to death. I abrupt decayed his Stoneforge and that was it.

R2: I start off fine with Delver, no-flip followed by turn 2 delver (he wasted my second land). Turn 3 no flip and I play Tarmogoyf. Turn 4 both delvers flip, and he plays flickerwisp resetting one. he ends wasteing all my lands and eventually gains momentum.

R3: I Liliana'd Turn 3 into a Wilt-Lief liege with Mom and Phyrexian Obliterator on the field. It didn't go well.

Game 2: Lands (0-2)

R1: He dropped a turn two manabonds and wasted me out of the game. It was insane

R2: I got a goyf and was able to cast an angler on one drs but got shut down by maze of ith and had all my lands destroyed.

Game 3: Jund (2-0) Gurmag Angler won me both games here.

R1: I hymned a bloodbraide on T2 which was nice. He played Turn 3 lili, which I promptly decayed followed by my own lili on turn 4. I was able to control it from there. Gurmag was a house killing a lili and him, it really makes bolt and punishing fire sad.

R2: I played 2 goyfs to match his two goyfs and then dropped an angler on turn 4 or 5 to turn the tide.

Game 4: Jund: (2-1)These were very interactive games but I ultimately just played more threats than him.

R1: We both played lilianas but he was able to bolt mine. We basically traded kill spell for creature back and forth until 2 separate delvers had flipped, been killed and finally a goyf stuck. I managed to hymn and thoughtseize away his bloodbraid elves.

R2: He got multiple wastelands and life from the loam online and I folded pretty quick.

R3: T1 deathrite, T2 Hymn and Wastleland his grove. I disfigure his bob and dropped a goyf followed by gurmag angler. It was good.

Game 5: Tezzerator (2-0)

R1: I abrupt decayed his thopter foundry and played two goyfs and a gurmag angler. He transmuted for an ensaring bridge and locked me down. I resolved a lili and ulted her twice with him resolving a jace before I found a decay for the bridge. I worked through two toxic delgues and a damnation. 3 delvers, 2 goyfs, 2 drs, and both angler were required to win this match. Lili was amazing, he couldn't get anything going. And my topdecks were fine as long as the decay was down there somewhere.

R2: He plays turn 1 chalice on 1 which isnt bad for me at all. I played a turn 2 hymn, into turn 3 null rod, later I decayed his chalice and then played a goyf and pithing needle for his active tezzeret.

I really liked the deck. I made some play mistakes, and my quick descriptions written are as close as I can remember. This deck is such an unfair fair deck with the hymns and deathrite shaman. I was a huge fan of Angler. He was value all day long and I don't think Tombstalker would be much better; every time I drew Angler i was happy it wasn't bob. Granted my matches were against fair and control decks mostly. Next GPT is next week!

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Thx for the report! I'm currently also thinking between Bobi or Zombie fish, so it was quite interesting to hear your experience.

You really faced the two hardest MU's for TA, so losing to it is not a shame.

As a side note: You should cut the 2 Lilis against DnT after boarding, the WLL you faced is the reason why :wink:

She's also really slow & clunky which is not optimal against they're Wasteland/Port/Thalia plan. She's also not great against swarm decks.

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Originally Posted by Jo4source

thank you so much for your input and time i am going to keep bug delver together because i love delver decks. i am going to try to master bug.

im basically a noob and horrendous at playing magic is there any thing i can do to give back to this forum and its members?

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Seeing your location now, I think we might have played each other before. The Underground Sea tournament, was it you I ended up drawing against in the first round?

The meta there looked very fair. I think in general, less discard and more removal is probably the way to go in that meta, from what I saw. I was pretty sad to see the finals there was Affinity and Merfolk, because I was pretty well prepared for both those decks, but my punt versus Miracles put me out of the running.

I wonder if this is the shell for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. We don't really have enough mana to use Snapcaster well, and flashing back Hymn seems disgusting.

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Originally Posted by iostream

I wonder if this is the shell for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. We don't really have enough mana to use Snapcaster well, and flashing back Hymn seems disgusting.

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I played him in a BUG control shell. He was pretty good, but Hymn does tend to lose value as the game goes on. In the Delver shell there are a couple reasons I wouldnt play him

1. He can't fuel my dig through time's anymore. I am not as siked about cycling cards without dig and he fills the slot I would want to play gurmag angler.

2. He increases my creature count and subsequently decreases my I/S count. Our I/S count is already fairly low.

3. Sometimes you have good spells to flashback, but he doesnt hit counters really so he isn't all that good unless you flashback a hymn or need to decay or cantrip.

I like baby jace, but i'm not convinced he fits in the delver shell

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Originally Posted by H

Seeing your location now, I think we might have played each other before. The Underground Sea tournament, was it you I ended up drawing against in the first round?

The meta there looked very fair. I think in general, less discard and more removal is probably the way to go in that meta, from what I saw. I was pretty sad to see the finals there was Affinity and Merfolk, because I was pretty well prepared for both those decks, but my punt versus Miracles put me out of the running.

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No I actually did not play... I was there just briefly but it was mud and merfolk at the end.. The merfolk pilot is probably one of the top players in the area. The mud player has been playing the deck for a few years and he is military with constant legacy players around to hone his skill.

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Originally Posted by Jo4source

No I actually did not play... I was there just briefly but it was mud and merfolk at the end.. The merfolk pilot is probably one of the top players in the area. The mud player has been playing the deck for a few years and he is military with constant legacy players around to hone his skill.

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I thought Neal was playing Affinity? Either way, my board that day was full of Pernicious Deeds and lots of removal, so I felt good going in. A tough round one draw and me punting to a round 2 draw had me out though.

I think, considering the meta shift that I will be back to my old build, which I had some minor success with:

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 (Something meta-dependent)

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize

Now, that deck, as you can see in the link had 1 Dig and 1 Dimir Charm (wakka, wakka) which will probably need to be replaced (and only 19 lands, which is not correct, it needs to be 20). I actually like Dimir Charm if the meta is very heavy with Miracles (counters Entreat, kills Venser, which, in my experience are the two most obnoxious things they can do). I need to see how the meta shakes up, things like K Grip (which was only incidental Miracles hate, was really there for Batterskull), the single sideboard Thoughtsieze, and the Flusterstorm are questionable to me. I'm also really unsure about two Liliana, it will remain to be seen if that is the direction I really want to go, or drop it back down to one. Again, it will come down to how Miracles infested your meta is. I think the above is pretty strong versus Miracles, I believe that you should be slightly favored in the match-up over-all.

If people are really continuing to jam Anglers though, I think we should look at some number of Dismembers, just like Ned Kaida-Yip has been doing.

I probably won't get to play this week, because I am sick as a dog with a sinus infection, but in the next few weeks I'll be very happy to jam some BUG again.

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Originally Posted by wnorris

I played him in a BUG control shell. He was pretty good, but Hymn does tend to lose value as the game goes on. In the Delver shell there are a couple reasons I wouldnt play him

1. He can't fuel my dig through time's anymore. I am not as siked about cycling cards without dig and he fills the slot I would want to play gurmag angler.

2. He increases my creature count and subsequently decreases my I/S count. Our I/S count is already fairly low.

3. Sometimes you have good spells to flashback, but he doesnt hit counters really so he isn't all that good unless you flashback a hymn or need to decay or cantrip.

I like baby jace, but i'm not convinced he fits in the delver shell

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1. We still run a lot of lands and have Daze - I think cycling is still pretty exciting to me! Also, Angler fulfills a totally different role, and we probably shouldn't compare them. Either you think you need more damage output besides the standard 12 creature (in which case Angler is a consideration) or you don't.

2. Hymn versions have always run around 24-26 instants and sorceries (20 lands, 12-14 creatures, 0-2 Liliana), so I think that's empirically not a big issue.

3. This is only true if it's a matchup where you want a lot of counterspells! Jace requires you to run more spells which are good at sorcery speed. That means a little more discard (maybe 3 Hymn + 2 Thoughtseize), a little more removal (3 Decay + 2 Dismember or Disfigure?), and maybe 1 Reanimate or something (which has floated around in some lists in the past). This is terrific in most fair matchups and less terrific against certain combo decks.

Since I was lucky enough to pick up some baby Jaces before they were infinite dollars, I'd be willing to try him out. I'd probably have to start him out at a two-of, since we need to draw him to see if he's actually good.

One thing about the loot ability is that, as you can see in my above list, there is a fair chance at a late-game dead draw, between 20 lands, four Daze and four Hymn. Sometimes, even Force is a late-game brick, where you don't have five mana and all you may need is a removal spell.

On the "flashback" ability, in the matchups where Abrput Decay is good, you almost can't ever have enough. Plus, depending on how your sideboard is constructed, getting back something like a Surgical could easily be the difference between winning a tough match-up and losing.

All theory-craft though, I will play him and see.

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Originally Posted by iostream

1. We still run a lot of lands and have Daze - I think cycling is still pretty exciting to me! Also, Angler fulfills a totally different role, and we probably shouldn't compare them. Either you think you need more damage output besides the standard 12 creature (in which case Angler is a consideration) or you don't.

2. Hymn versions have always run around 24-26 instants and sorceries (20 lands, 12-14 creatures, 0-2 Liliana), so I think that's empirically not a big issue.

3. This is only true if it's a matchup where you want a lot of counterspells! Jace requires you to run more spells which are good at sorcery speed. That means a little more discard (maybe 3 Hymn + 2 Thoughtseize), a little more removal (3 Decay + 2 Dismember or Disfigure?), and maybe 1 Reanimate or something (which has floated around in some lists in the past). This is terrific in most fair matchups and less terrific against certain combo decks.

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I would love to see him tested, im not saying he is bad. To clarify a couple things though. I compared him to angler because I am not running more than 14 creatures, and we have 12 definite includes. So when it comes to looking at Jace I think Jace vs Bob vs Gurmag since we really dont have space for them all. I mentioned the I/S count in case you were planning on exceeding 14 creatures with jace. When I played with him I ran a dismember, 2x disfigure, and 4x decay which was a sweet package; disfigure is an amazing card! On a side note, I would run dismember anytime now somewhere in the 75 for angler.


Manipulato:
Thanks for the comment! I was really happy with Angler this weekend. Bob has always been a favorite of mine and I didn't switch them until I was walking my decklist up to the judge haha.

With Hymn viable again, is the accepted manabase back to this?

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland

I mainly play RUG Delver, but I'm looking to also be able to build and learn the BUG version. With baby Jace currently so high, I think it's time to try to convert them into the last 2 seas I need. :laugh:

I've played new Jace in a BUG Control brew for the past week or so, and he's been incredibly powerful every time I've flipped him. The ability to flash back multiple Decays over the course of a game completely shuts down some Miracles players' attempts to overload Decay postboard with things like extra Mentors and Rest in Peace. The fact that the flashback is zero mana (and that you can alternate cast Force) makes him much stronger against Delver decks and D&T than Snapcaster Mage, though the additional exposure to opposing Deathrites can be slightly awkward.

All that being said, I think he pushes the deck in a very controlling direction and BUG is already the most controlling Delver shell, and that's not necessarily a good thing. Aside from some corner cases like attacking through a Baleful Strix I'm not sure we'd get much out of the +1 ability and the ultimate isn't really in line with our game plan. My bet is that he ends up replacing the second Sylvan Library in my 75, likely the SB one, if I run him in Delver.

Your analysis makes a lot of sense. We certainly are the most 'control' out of all the Delver decks, my build above probably more so than most. This is often not great, as you point out, I've certainly lost more than a couple games where Delvers didn't flip, once, twice, three or four times.

The fact that we are control though is great in the Miracles match-up though, it can give them fits. I'm always interested in diversifying my 'threats' though, so a two mana Planeswalker definitely has appeal to me. I might try him out replacing in my above list, the one Sylvan Library (main) and the second Liliana. The flex might be a Dismember then.

That list with that guy playing baleful instead of delver is probably the way to go

Delver has not flipped for me for 5 turns before.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

That list with that guy playing baleful instead of delver is probably the way to go

Delver has not flipped for me for 5 turns before.

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Here's the thing, if you give up Delver and go Strix, you are absolutely forsaking any idea of trying to be a Tempo deck. At that point, Daze is a pretty poor choice. So, now that you've dropped those, are you really even playing this deck? Honestly, then you are a control deck that has Goyf, which I honestly think you can do a lot better in a variety of ways (Shardless, Landstill, etc.).

That is what I am responding to, when you are saying we are a control type deck out of all the delver variants. It may be time to move to those lists.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

That is what I am responding to, when you are saying we are a control type deck out of all the delver variants. It may be time to move to those lists.

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I think that we are definitely the most controlling delver variant. And sure, BUG colors do support a pretty great control shell. But we are also a tempo deck and we execute the tempo/control game quite well.

BUG control with Baleful Strix instead of delver has existed alongside delver for quite a long time and I think that BUG delver (Team America) is a stronger shell in general. While a more controlling shell may offer other benefits, it is a completely different deck. I don't really see why we would move away from delver when we have so much power in Hymn + Wasteland and delver backs up that plan really well.

I did have a game where my delvers didn't flip for 4 turns last weekend, but I also had a LOT of flipped delvers that were really good at beating face.

While it's temping to drop Delver, I think it's mostly a trap. He's our closest approximation of reach, since if the group is gummed up, we only have Deathrite activations to hope for. I think there are some cases where it could be a good idea, but mostly just isn't.

The fact that we are a sort of bad tempo deck, a slightly bad midrange deck and a maybe-passable-as-a-control deck, doesn't sound great, but it gives you the flexibility to switch gears when you need it.

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Originally Posted by H

While it's temping to drop Delver, I think it's mostly a trap. He's our closest approximation of reach, since if the group is gummed up, we only have Deathrite activations to hope for. I think there are some cases where it could be a good idea, but mostly just isn't.

The fact that we are a sort of bad tempo deck, a slightly bad midrange deck and a maybe-passable-as-a-control deck, doesn't sound great, but it gives you the flexibility to switch gears when you need it.

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Yeah, I think that the flexibility of which you speak as well as the raw power of this deck is why it was consistently the best placing tempo deck pre-Khans (and some would say best midrange deck). At least that's what it says on tcdecks.

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Originally Posted by H

While it's temping to drop Delver, I think it's mostly a trap. He's our closest approximation of reach, since if the group is gummed up, we only have Deathrite activations to hope for. I think there are some cases where it could be a good idea, but mostly just isn't.

The fact that we are a sort of bad tempo deck, a slightly bad midrange deck and a maybe-passable-as-a-control deck, doesn't sound great, but it gives you the flexibility to switch gears when you need it.

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This is the biggest reason to keep playing Delver in the deck. The free win rate is just too high with Delver/Wasteland/Daze. I wouldn't even call our tempo plan that poor, and we're an excellent aggressive midrange deck.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I think Tasigur suffers in an open meta because of Karakas. So for your slots I'd go with 1 TNN, 1 Tombstalker or 2 Bobs if you're set on them both being creatures. Once you've committed to maindecking 3 mana spells I'd rather pay the extra B for Flying than deal with a creature that gets chumped as easily as Goyf.

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Went with 1 TNN, 1 Tombstalker, and 4-0'd the swiss. Lost in the first elimination round of the T4 however, but had a good time anyway. My MU's were Dredge, Reanimator, Manaless Dredge and Grixis Delver, so I wouldn't call any of the results representative. Lost all game 1's in all matches all day :P

Tombstalker was a house, however. Flying was very relevant in the Grixis match-up. He played Angler and I beat him more or less exclusively thanks to Tombstalker.

Link to my blog post about it. For some reason, the title won't show up on the post. It's not a proper report, but has some cool varaince in it, which happened during the day.