[Deck] Suicide Black

Sideboard tables updated for Infect on page 101 after a lot of test.

MD updated as well:

Black Suicide by Ralf.

Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Bayou
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Sideboard tables updated for Infect on page 101 after a lot of test.

MD updated as well:

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What were the changes?

Also, wouldn't it be better to run a 3/3 split of our draw spells for the marginal advantage of dodging meddling mages/extractrions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

What were the changes?

Also, wouldn't it be better to run a 3/3 split of our draw spells for the marginal advantage of dodging meddling mages/extractrions?

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Abrupt decay stays in.
Liliana does not come in.
And a few other tweaks (HTT is meh for example, etc).

You can definitely run a 3/3 split of the draw 4.

I have replaced 1 Bayou MD by 1 Overgrown Tomb.
It helps getting out a shadow in many MU (even more post side) by T2/T3 when you don't lose life fast enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Abrupt decay stays in.
Liliana does not come in.
And a few other tweaks (HTT is meh for example, etc).

You can definitely run a 3/3 split of the draw 4.

I have replaced 2 Bayou MD for 2 Overgrown Tomb.
It helps getting out a shadow in many MU (even more post side) by T2/T3 when you don't lose life fast enough.

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You took out HTT? It still shows that is in. I love the hymn, its not consistent but sometimes it nails everything you need.
Oh I never saw your list when you MD a Lilli.

I like the overgrown tomb idea. Many times I have sat with an uncastable death's shadow, I will try that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

You took out HTT? It still shows that is in. I love the hymn, its not consistent but sometimes it nails everything you need.
Oh I never saw your list when you MD a Lilli.

I like the overgrown tomb idea. Many times I have sat with an uncastable death's shadow, I will try that?

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Only 2 HTT post side instead of the full playset.
I thought infect was a combo deck but it turns out it is an aggro deck before being a combo deck.
If there is no creature in play to pump, you are winning :-)

Master of the Feast and Phyrexian Negator are worth playing in certain decks as a 3 of. You never really want 2 Negator or 2 Master in play at any given time.

I am liking Tainted Pact. Black really does not have any cards like Brainstorm or Ponder and the Tutors are kind of weak. After some practice, it is playable. Typically you don't want to go beyond 4 cards and you don't want anymore of 4 of any card in your deck for obvious reasons. Hatred is just my play style. At times, my opponent's hand destroyed or they mulligan to a weak hand. I plan to kill them when that happens.

As you can see the board is mostly for other aggressive or creature based decks. The main deck is designed to beat combo and the like. Sickening Dreams for token decks. Dread for Death and Taxes. I did test Engineered Plague it seems too slow for what it does in the current format. Scroll is for people that side in Ensnaring Bridge against us.

Master of the Feast is okay especially if you Ritual him out. Typically they will use removal on your Deathrite Shaman, Vampire Hexmage or Hypnotic Specter. After they do it is usally safe to play Negator or Master.

What I like most is you can actually win against burn if you get the depths combo. Typically black loses to burn.

Suicide Black

// Lands
4 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [CS] Dark Depths
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [M15] Swamp
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [KTK] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [C14] Vampire Hexmage
4 [M10] Hypnotic Specter
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator

// Spells
3 [JOU] Master of the Feast
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [THS] Thoughtseize
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [V13] Hymn to Tourach
3 [EX] Hatred

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 3 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 2 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 [6E] Perish

GreenDragon, I like your list! I'm trying to build a similar version albeit mono-black. Do you ever have issues finding DD? What do you think about Expedition Map?

To answer your question I don't think Suicide Black can use cards like Expedition Map. My thinking is what cantrips colors have to offer now. This is why I think cards like Tainted Pact are good for us. It allows us to view several cards and pick the most devastating one. I often use it to find Hymn. Sometimes I hit another Tainted Pact which I like because it allows me to go deeper in my deck. But what I like most about the deck is you don't "need" Dark Depths to win and there will be games if you only run Tainted Pact that you will not find it. So to make Dark Depths a bit easier to find I added Beseech the Queen. While I am still testing it. Beseech the Queen usually allows me to get Hexmage, Depths or Thespian's Stage and allows me to play 3 Depths instead of 4. I can use it to get Ritual if I have Hatred in hand. Also, I added white primarily for Tidehollow Sculler. It is well worth it to play that over Thoughtseize. I also added a 4 Master because I find he is the very last creature my opponents see before they die. Few decks can handle a 5/5 black flyer. The result is a very brutal Suicide Black deck. But like I said 6 ways to find cards in your deck is pretty damn good considering. Often, people's only answer to Marit Lage is Swords to Plowshares giving you 20 life. After that, you have more than enough life usually to cast Hatred. The deck has 3 ways to win Depths, Hatred or Master.

Hatred 2016

// Lands
4 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [CS] Dark Depths
3 [R] Scrubland
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [M15] Swamp
1 [KTK] Plains

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [C14] Vampire Hexmage
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [M10] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [JOU] Master of the Feast
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [V13] Hymn to Tourach
3 [EX] Hatred
2 [SHM] Beseech the Queen

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [V13] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 2 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 2 [MI] Forsaken Wastes
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [WL] Spinning Darkness

In regards to Master of the Feast's drawing cards for your opponent it is seldom that it works against me. The worst is when they have Maze of Ith and I can't find a Wasteland or they have Life of the Loam to bring it back. I may add graveyard hate but I find doing so deludes the forcefulness of the deck. Main deck is very aggressive so the sideboard needs to add to that, not take away. After testing Beseech I have to say I'm not really a fan. I think it's okay to play 1 but more than that. I wouldn't and I'm adding back the 4th Dark Depths.

A refresh primer, a little outdated, but a good refresh read to help inspire some deck design.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.0

Has anyone tried Gitaxian Probe in the build? It seems like a great free way to take your life lower while it replaces itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

Has anyone tried Gitaxian Probe in the build? It seems like a great free way to take your life lower while it replaces itself.

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Hello James,

We have tried Gitaxian Probe.

The card is nice, no wonder.
But the problem is that we have no way to cast it for U, and sometimes you cannot play it because you cannot lose life anymore.
Also this is not a black card and thus it doesn't pitch for Soul Spike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Hello James,

We have tried Gitaxian Probe.

The card is nice, no wonder.
But the problem is that we have no way to cast it for U, and sometimes you cannot play it because you cannot lose life anymore.
Also this is not a black card and thus it doesn't pitch for Soul Spike.

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The only way to cast it is with a death rite activation.

Lately I have noticed myself is situations with uncastable deathshadows. A lot of the time it's because of an early soulspike activation, or them STP something. With a probe and a god hand turn one you can go fetch (-1), catacombs untapped (-2), thoughtseize (-2), probe (-2). and we're at 13 turn 1!

I guess not pitching to soulspike is an issue as well as what would get cut for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

The only way to cast it is with a death rite activation.

Lately I have noticed myself is situations with uncastable deathshadows. A lot of the time it's because of an early soulspike activation, or them STP something. With a probe and a god hand turn one you can go fetch (-1), catacombs untapped (-2), thoughtseize (-2), probe (-2). and we're at 13 turn 1!

I guess not pitching to soulspike is an issue as well as what would get cut for it.

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Yes, definitely and that is why we are "only" playing 3 shadows to avoid having 2 of them in a lot of opening hand (even if it happens but you should probably have mulliganed this hand anyway).

Note also that with 6 draw spells you should be able to play around such hindrance.

At last, those corner cases should only be relevant against combo / control decks that are not threatening your life total; those decks tend to be addressed in G2 & G3 where you have access to a bit more velocity through more lifeloss (Surgical Extraction).

Remember that the deck wants to:
1) First, take control of the game (hand and board wise)
2) Then, kill your opponent

We are not an "all in" kind of deck. It happens sometimes but this rather the exception than the rule.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Yes, definitely and that is why we are "only" playing 3 shadows to avoid having 2 of them in a lot of opening hand (even if it happens but you should probably have mulliganed this hand anyway).

Note also that with 6 draw spells you should be able to play around such hindrance.

At last, those corner cases should only be relevant against combo / control decks that are not threatening your life total; those decks tend to be addressed in G2 & G3 where you have access to a bit more velocity through more lifeloss (Surgical Extraction).

Remember that the deck wants to:
1) First, take control of the game (hand and board wise)
2) Then, kill your opponent

We are not an "all in" kind of deck. It happens sometimes but this rather the exception than the rule.

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Thanks for the explanation.

On a side note has anything from Oath seem like a good fit in the deck? Warping Weil?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

Thanks for the explanation.

On a side note has anything from Oath seem like a good fit in the deck? Warping Weil?

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Actually, the only "on-going" debate is about the 2nd Spinning Darkness in the sideboard.

I haven't figured out any replacement card for it yet; but well, if anyone has some good idea, don't hesitate to chime in !

I'm afraid OGW has not brought us any playable cards as it stands out but who knows ?

Warping Wail is a great thing but we won't be able to include it in our list unless we change the whole mana base.

If you are looking to maximize Death's Shadow I suggest incorporating a Street Wraith/Reanimate engine. I have been playing a B/R suicide deck that has been surprisingly explosive... you could probably easily tweak to mono-B or your splash of choice.

4 Death's Shadow
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Murderous Cut
2 Reanimate
2 Fire Covenant
2 Chain Lightning
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Badlands
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Barren Moor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Gloom
2 Smash to Smithereens

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

If you are looking to maximize Death's Shadow I suggest incorporating a Street Wraith/Reanimate engine. I have been playing a B/R suicide deck that has been surprisingly explosive... you could probably easily tweak to mono-B or your splash of choice.

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Hello Maharis,

The list you have provided is on the same track as "Death's proof" (UB Death's shadow) iteration.
This deck is really nice but it is trying to accomplish something different.

Our core is about Infernal Contract/Cruel bargain + Soul Spike.
Shadows were just a nice addition...or something one could call a collateral damage :cool:


UB Death's shadow

4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave


Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Hello Maharis,

The list you have provided is on the same track as "Death's proof" (UB Death's shadow) iteration.
This deck is really nice but it is trying to accomplish something different.

Our core is about Infernal Contract/Cruel bargain + Soul Spike.
Shadows were just a nice addition...or something one could call a collateral damage :cool:


UB Death's shadow

4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave


Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou

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How do you compare the playstyle of the Your Suicide Black vs the UB?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James718

How do you compare the playstyle of the Your Suicide Black vs the UB?

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UB Shadow is a real tempo deck with an "all-in" strategy.

My deck is a midrange/control deck.

This past friday i ran the deck again,

The overgrown tombs are an awesome addition. I did poorly mostly do to mulliganing way too much.

The biggest thing I need to work on is the infect matchup. Them giving me life is a pseudo removal for the death's shadow. The major issue is dealing with the Inkmoth nexus. Its next to impossible to remove. Any suggestions for the infect matchup.

Also, what matches does empty the pits need to stay in and which does it need to come out. I find myself always cutting it going into game 2.

Have you thought of using toxic deluge in this deck?