[Deck] 43 Lands

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Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod

What has happened to this deck as far as being a control deck? The point was to kill them slowly? I understand Stage and Depths can be a quick kill, but if this was an aggressive deck, shouldn't you not put all your eggs in one basket? Why not assemble a more aggro strategy? All it takes is a STP to kill the Marit token. Why not run more Manabonds, and Factories...? I don't think it's a good idea at all, but it seems like that could be the better way to utilize the combo...?

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2 cards changed does not an aggro deck make. If the token is STPed, then you play the land again; It's a GRINDY engine. It's very hard to get rid of, and you have to think about when to play your cards; it's like not letting your Academy Ruins into the graveyard when there's a DRS on the table. I've been testing with 2 Thespian's Stage and 1 Dark Depths, and it gives you a lot of speed which you can utilize to defeat decks that you usually have trouble beating. The stages work as your Maze 4-5, Taiga 2-3 (for punishing fire), Port 5-6. With the limited testing i've doen i think it's been amazing. Don't hate on something just because you don't like it.

If it turns out to be terrible, then so be it. But if someone STP's your token you get 20 life. And you can just replay the lands. Against Karakas, you have Wasteland. If the depths is removed you can just kill them with Punishing Fire. I might have to make some changes to my list though, i do think that the Creeping Tar Pit could be great as well; cause you could copy it with the Stage and hit for 6 a turn.

As far as stage/depths goes, I'm not sure what matchup gives us that much time that isn't already a good matchup. Is it supposed to help the combo matchup?

It helps the ones where you go to time

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Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat

As far as stage/depths goes, I'm not sure what matchup gives us that much time that isn't already a good matchup. Is it supposed to help the combo matchup?

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Stage/Depths is a proactive thing to be doing that the opponent must disrupt or they'll be dead in very short order. We can recur the pieces very easily and potentially serve up a 20/20 every turn that must be answered. This, to me, is miles better than a 3/2 unblockable.

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Originally Posted by barcode

Stage/Depths is a proactive thing to be doing that the opponent must disrupt or they'll be dead in very short order. We can recur the pieces very easily and potentially serve up a 20/20 every turn that must be answered. This, to me, is miles better than a 3/2 unblockable.

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I see it as a cheap replacement for the big wincons of the past (like Mindslaver). I plan to use it in conjunction with Tar-pit to shore up my ability to end games that I have a tentative hold on. Tar-pit has the added utility of being useful for sneaking past difficult to remove blockers and shrinking Planeswalkers, but I cant tell you how many times I've had the game under control for 5 or 6 turns, only to see my opponent find the hate card or bomb that turns the game around just before I can seal the deal. 3 damage a turn isn't good enough against a strong opponent, especially if they stole game 1 and you cant afford to let the next two go to time.

Lands will never be a combo deck, but an inexpensive and easily tutorable way to both steal some games and end others quickly is something that I've been wanting for a long time.

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Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat

As far as stage/depths goes, I'm not sure what matchup gives us that much time that isn't already a good matchup. Is it supposed to help the combo matchup?

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I believe it's effect is twofold. It's good against our good matchups and gives you a kill exactly when you want it. Time can be of the essence with this deck, with the stage/depths you can lock out a game way faster than earlier. Secondly it gives us a proactive tool, that requires answering (as someone else mentioned). Against a combo deck, it might be fast enough, sometimes we are able to lock the game down for a couple of turns, being able to get a win con at that time can be essential to winning a game. Especially if you go for a route with Crop Rotation, which i have not yet tried.

Lastly, it's a combo that fits into our deck, we are already playing tutors for lands, and it doesn't take up many slots.

Question is, what did you remove to make room for the combo and why those?

Crop Rotation is a cool card, not a good one though (in this deck), I'll try to elaborate in another post later.

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Originally Posted by Zynque

Question is, what did you remove to make room for the combo and why those?

Crop Rotation is a cool card, not a good one though (in this deck), I'll try to elaborate in another post later.

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I removed the Creeping Tar Pit (because with the new combo i just don't need it to clock anyone, and planeswalkers are better dealt with using Punishing Fire). I also cut the Bayou (since i am not using Black anymore, but it could easily be the savannah, if you wish to keep black instead of white). I played with both white and black earlier. White for Enlightened Tutor and Knight in the Board, but i guess you could just as easily have the confidants in the board. At the moment i also cut a Glacial Chasm (for a second stage), but it might not be necessary, gonna have to do some testing here though :).

The choices for me are:
Cut white (Enlightened Tutor, and Knight of the Reliquary + Ethersworn Canonist in the board).
Cut Black (Dark Confidant in the board and perhaps abrupt decay).

As of right now i'm gonna be trying a list with white in the SB for E Tutor, Knight and Ethersworn. Playing 1 of Stage and Depths, a Chasm and 2 Chalice in the Main.

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Originally Posted by Zynque

Question is, what did you remove to make room for the combo and why those?

Crop Rotation is a cool card, not a good one though (in this deck), I'll try to elaborate in another post later.

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I cut Creeping Tar Pit and Oblivion Stone. I was never very happy to draw O-Stone and most times I'd rather have Engineered Explosives (which I can transmute for).

I'm not playing Crop Rotation or any fancy things that others have suggested. I'm also playing 39 lands total.

Interesting. You have probably considered the same cards that I have.

I do want to keep the Creeping Tar Pit for now though, it has been too good so many times and it's easier to assemble and protect than Stage + Depths (since you can Port a white source both on their turn and on your own afterwards to protect Tar Pit from Plow if you wanna kill a planeswalker etc). This makes me doubt a little bit in Stage/Depths since the only thing it does better than others is to kill a player more quickly, something that often isn't very needed. However there have certainly been times in matches where you have been given a small window to deal damage (or whatever you want) and testing will determine how useful it will be. It is still too slow against combo with the exception of being very lucky from time to time.

As an avid lover of Enlightened Tutor, I have unfortunately come to the conclusion that Punishing Fire is the way to go in the current meta. This has led me to cut Crucible, which I think is fine (since it is very unreliable). With the inclusion of Depths/Stage I will probably also cut Ensnaring Bridge and move that to the board. It didn't do much at BoM anyway, without Enlightened Tutor you don't have that good access to it and there is always better piles to make with Intuition imo.

The second card will be Bojuka Bog, which hasn't done enough work. Maybe I will put it or a Tormod's Crypt in the board, we'll see, it depends from time to time I guess. I also want to cut a fetch (running 4 atm) for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Cutting green sources is never a good idea, but I have always been very fond of Urborg and since we are adding yet another non-mana producing land maybe it's time. I'm still running Glacial Chasm since it's so unanswerable in certain matchups, often board it out though.

Regarding Crop Rotation, what do you gain by adding that card? Speed and consistency to assemble the combo? Yes, sure. But you have to acknowledge that there are lots of very common cards in Legacy that fights the combo. Wasteland, Stifle, Sword to Plowshares, blockers and heaps of hate cards can cause a lot of trouble...or can they? The Lands deck can handle every problem (though Blood Moon often takes a lot of time hehe) and the two most common are the easiest to handle (Wasteland and Plow), BUT, but we need time to set up the solution which is my argument that speed and consistency, which Crop Rotation provides, is most often not desired. It can do some other cool stuff but all of them are irrelevant in the end.

What do you lose by running Crop Rotation? Speed and consistency to assemble CONTROL? Yes.

Just in general, I would really recommend to run 2 Engineered Explosives main, you'll never regret it :)

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Originally Posted by Zynque

Interesting. You have probably considered the same cards that I have.

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The problem is there is so much utility and value in the deck that it's hard to come to terms with shaving numbers or cutting things down. My list only runs three Wastes and Loams. Heresy! But the second Loam isn't as good as the first and it's easy to get stuff done with three. This is the time to take a hard look at the utility cards in the deck and figure out what's needed. Playtesting is important.

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Originally Posted by Zynque

I do want to keep the Creeping Tar Pit for now though, it has been too good so many times and it's easier to assemble and protect than Stage + Depths (since you can Port a white source both on their turn and on your own afterwards to protect Tar Pit from Plow if you wanna kill a planeswalker etc). This makes me doubt a little bit in Stage/Depths since the only thing it does better than others is to kill a player more quickly, something that often isn't very needed. However there have certainly been times in matches where you have been given a small window to deal damage (or whatever you want) and testing will determine how useful it will be. It is still too slow against combo with the exception of being very lucky from time to time.

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I thought long and hard about the utility of Tar Pit for taking out a Jace or Liliana or even Tezzeret and came to the conclusion that I am alright leaning on Punishing Fire to keep Planeswalkers in check. The potential net gain of one-shotting the opponent with a 20/20 flier is too great. That said I'm trying to find room for a third Punishing Fire.

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Originally Posted by Zynque

As an avid lover of Enlightened Tutor, I have unfortunately come to the conclusion that Punishing Fire is the way to go in the current meta. This has led me to cut Crucible, which I think is fine (since it is very unreliable). With the inclusion of Depths/Stage I will probably also cut Ensnaring Bridge and move that to the board. It didn't do much at BoM anyway, without Enlightened Tutor you don't have that good access to it and there is always better piles to make with Intuition imo.

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It's funny. I've never been a fan of E-tutor in Lands because it's too easy to dredge away the Tutors and we can't recur Enchantments (without E-wit+Volrath's Stronghold and that has marginal value). It would be sweet to have but I feel it's being "too cute". Give me Tolaria West and Intuition any day. :) Punishing Fire is too good not to play and it's an answer to Deathrite Shaman and can't get Abrupt Decayed like [card]Cursed Totem[/card]. I'm not sure about moving Bridge to board, but my meta is chock full of Sneak and Show. Hiding behind a bridge is important.

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Originally Posted by Zynque

The second card will be Bojuka Bog, which hasn't done enough work. Maybe I will put it or a Tormod's Crypt in the board, we'll see, it depends from time to time I guess. I also want to cut a fetch (running 4 atm) for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Cutting green sources is never a good idea, but I have always been very fond of Urborg and since we are adding yet another non-mana producing land maybe it's time. I'm still running Glacial Chasm since it's so unanswerable in certain matchups, often board it out though.

Regarding Crop Rotation, what do you gain by adding that card? Speed and consistency to assemble the combo? Yes, sure. But you have to acknowledge that there are lots of very common cards in Legacy that fights the combo. Wasteland, Stifle, Sword to Plowshares, blockers and heaps of hate cards can cause a lot of trouble...or can they? The Lands deck can handle every problem (though Blood Moon often takes a lot of time hehe) and the two most common are the easiest to handle (Wasteland and Plow), BUT, but we need time to set up the solution which is my argument that speed and consistency, which Crop Rotation provides, is most often not desired. It can do some other cool stuff but all of them are irrelevant in the end.

What do you lose by running Crop Rotation? Speed and consistency to assemble CONTROL? Yes.

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I don't know about Tormod's Crypt. Good players can play around it and they often do. We may not be fast enough to take advantage of the tempo gain. It's not a land either. I've been running 3 fetches for a while and it feels right, the Urborg is needed, in my opinion, to turn Tabernacle, Depths, fetches and even Mazes into mana sources. Glacial Chasm is another card we can't cut from the main deck because Burn just can't win (it gets better when we can copy it with Stage after the real one has 6 counters).

Crop Rotation doesn't have a place in a controlling deck, I feel. It may make sense in a full out combo deck, but here, it feels wrong.

I'll be getting some testing in this evening (if the guys are willing to deal with Lands...mwahahaha) and if it's useful I'll report in.

I agree with cuthbertthecat , Zynque and OneBigSquirrelGod, maybe the combo is not what the deck needs... But it certainly kills storm before they think they've died... haha
I made some changes in my list, i was running Raven's crime alongside with punishing fire(No Regrets, my field is filled with 12 Post, Aggro Loam, Show and tell and Shaman variants, both cards have been amazing) and maybe i should try the DD combo, here is my sketch.

// Lands
2 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage

// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 [CS] Dark Depths

I moved the DD to the sideboard to bring with the Bobs, don't know if it's right, mnaybe i should cut one bayou(this list has 17 Green sources counting the fetches and Moxen) , what do you guys think about it?

Lands: 37
1x Academy Ruins
1x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Thespian's Stage
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Instants: 7
3x Intuition
4x Punishing Fire

Sorceries: 4
4x Life from the Loam

Enchantments: 7
4x Exploration
3x Manabond

Artifacts: 5
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard: 15
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Crop Rotation
1x Crucible of Worlds
3X Krosan Grip
3X Sphere of Resistance

Thought is try a set of crop rotations in the side. Comes in for Storm, SnT and RIP maybe?.

Why would you side Crop rotation in against storm? I don't see the use of those cards in that MU. Can you explain?

Been testing, and I think Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows is absolutely crucial in any build of this deck right now. Crop Rotation was really poor in testing - I think Expedition Map would be better if the deck actually wanted another land tutor (which I currently don't think it does.) Thespian's Stage has actually been pretty good on it's own. I'm trying a 3/2 split of Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths. Seems good so far.

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Originally Posted by Darklingske

Why would you side Crop rotation in against storm? I don't see the use of those cards in that MU. Can you explain?

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I'm guessing the idea is that Crop Rotation helps increase the speed of deploying Marit Lage.

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Originally Posted by Wanderlust

I'm guessing the idea is that Crop Rotation helps increase the speed of deploying Marit Lage.

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^this was the idea... I can see reasons why its not optimal however. I still think it will up the SnT/RIP MU though.

Drawing into SCG Columbus! Wish me luck guys!

Take it down, OneBigSquirrelGod! Really hoping to see you in a feature match.

Good luck Bobby! I'm always happy when someone top8 a big tournament with our monster of a deck! Writing this when you are in semifinals, seems to be only pretty nice matchups left :)

Please argue for Barbarian Ring and Trinisphere in the board afterwards, imo the latter is too slow sometimes and I like Sphere of Resistance. Also, please give your thoughts on Abrupt Decay vs Krosan Grip, I like the former more but I see that you haven chosen the opposite.