[DTB] Vial Goblins

Plagues happens to be one of my biggest concerns, since I am running R/B and don't have access to Taigas. I have people in the local shop bringing in 4 Engineered Plagues and 4 Infests against me. My usual sideboard strategy has been to bring in 2 Mad Aunties, but I am considering testing Dralnu's Crusade. It reads:

Dralnu's Crusade 1BR

Enchantment
rare

All Goblins get +1/+1, are black, and are Zombies in addition to their creature types.

Has anyone tried using this? Is it worthwhile in a metagame that will be dominated by black? Or are the Mad Auntie's just plain better?

I am thinking of packing four of these tonight to see how they work out.

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Originally Posted by snackfu

Plagues happens to be one of my biggest concerns, since I am running R/B and don't have access to Taigas. I have people in the local shop bringing in 4 Engineered Plagues and 4 Infests against me. My usual sideboard strategy has been to bring in 2 Mad Aunties, but I am considering testing Dralnu's Crusade.

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Do they have ways to remove artifacts or are they playing monoblack?
If so Door of Destinies seems huge against both Plague and Infest. You can also try Patron of the Akki and/or Fledgling Dragon.

I agree that counterbalance is not much of a threat against goblins. In fact, a good player with board his CBs out in a matchup vs. goblins because there aren't enough 1 and 2 drop targets.

I also agree that the emergence of fat creatuers such as Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Dreadnought, as well as the continuing popularity of cards such as Nimble Mongoose, weaken the quality of Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator. However, decks that run Tombstalker often also tend to run Dark Confidant, so there is still a place for these cards. The only top-tier decks in which Fanatic and Incinerator are weak are Threshold, Landstill, and non-Ichorid combo decks.

Warren Weirding seems to me like a must-play card given the number of fatties running around. I didn't take me too long to play with it to see that it was more useful than Incinerator in most situations. I currently run 3 weirdings and one incinerator, but have been considering cutting the incinerator for a fourth weirding. Weirding is so strong in the current format that it's hard to argue against splashing black. Plus, you also have access to Wort, Earwig, Leyline, Cabal Therapy, etc.

After testing awhile, I agree that Mogg Fanatic seems much less effective.

How about Frenzied Goblin? I've been testing with him the past couple of days and he does help to race past 'Naught, Goyf and Tombstalker, as well as allows Lackey to get there. So many times I've dropped turn 1 Lackey only to get a cheap chump blocker in my way. Granted, he doesn't do anything against Factory or 'Goose, but you play Wasteland and Port. Also he does demand 1 mana per activation, but that seems minute, in comparison to the upside of getting through damage.

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Originally Posted by Wrecked

How about Frenzied Goblin? I've been testing with him the past couple of days and he does help to race past 'Naught, Goyf and Tombstalker, as well as allows Lackey to get there. So many times I've dropped turn 1 Lackey only to get a cheap chump blocker in my way. Granted, he doesn't do anything against Factory or 'Goose, but you play Wasteland and Port. Also he does demand 1 mana per activation, but that seems minute, in comparison to the upside of getting through damage.

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Yeah, this can actually be a worthwhile 1cc choice if you want to keep the curve smooth. I never tested it at its time (fanatic was still good with ravnica) but now it deserves it. I actually saw him in a awful list that top8ed lately and got surprised. It can really be a nice idea, especially for monored.

I was just wondering if anybody here has tested Thorn of Amethyst, mb or sb? I know there were whispers about it when it came out but nobody has really talked about it since. I'm thinking it might just be better to play CotV sb against combo because you can sometimes bring it in versus thresh and maybe a few other random decks. Thoughts?

Also, snackfu, if you did use 4 dralnu's crusades, I'm interested in hearing what happened.

Frenzied Goblin is awful. If I want to play more things to get Lackey through, I'm going to max out my Warren Weirdings and Stingscourgers.

That said, Fanatic is being dismissed too quickly. If anything, Gempalm's the weak link, and Fanatic/Stingscourger/Sharpshooter is becoming the stronger configuration.

Fanatic, for :r:, does the following.

1. Gives you a 1/1 body that's almost guaranteed to at least get a point of damage through and pumps Piledriver.
2. Gives you a means to remove Dark Confidant, Eternal Witness, Birds of Paradise, Rofellos, Goblin Lackey, Tin-Street Hooligan, Other Mogg Fanatics, Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Quirion Ranger, Priest of Titania, Wirewood Symbiote, Silvergill Adept, Cursecatcher, Wake Thrasher, Cloud of Faeries, Pestermite, and an attacking Mishra's Factory. Among other things.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I was just wondering if anybody here has tested Thorn of Amethyst, mb or sb? I know there were whispers about it when it came out but nobody has really talked about it since. I'm thinking it might just be better to play CotV sb against combo because you can sometimes bring it in versus thresh and maybe a few other random decks. Thoughts?

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I played Thorn of Amethyst in a tourney shortly after it came out, and I was quite underwhelmed. In my view, Chalice of the Void is a much stronger card and should be in a goblin player's sideboard. Countering spells is better than making players pay one more for them.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
2 [A] Taiga
3 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

Thoughts?

I wouldn't play with less than 2 Siege Gangs. Or 4 fanatics. Seriously, its Earwig Squad enabler that doesn't scream "Remove me asap!", which Lackey does.

Stingscourgers, seriously? I can see them being useful, but overally just no, you better run some real removal, like Diabolic Edict or may be Terminate.

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

I wouldn't play with less than 2 Siege Gangs. Or 4 fanatics. Seriously, its Earwig Squad enabler that doesn't scream "Remove me asap!", which Lackey does.

Stingscourgers, seriously? I can see them being useful, but overally just no, you better run some real removal, like Diabolic Edict or may be Terminate.

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Scourger is better than you think. It's Lackey path-clearing, fantastic against things like Tombstalker and Dreadnought, runs off only Red, etc etc. They're also a Goblin. I wouldn't run more than a pair if at all, but it's been fantastic at knocking huge guys out of the way long enough for me to get a major swing through.

I agree, and if you're on the draw, turn one lackey usually sees turn 2 tarmogoyf across the field, where scourger really shines. I've found that 2-2 Scourger/Gempalm is pretty effective. Also I'm expecting an aggro meta, so my real debate right now is about the Earwigs in general, if it'd be better to run 2 1-ofs like Tin Street, King, Auntie, or Sharpshooter. Although, they do shine when people board in E. Plague.

I've been reading list than run less than 4 piledriver....the question is: is this creature obligate in 4x in this deck??

List of reasons, why Sting bouncing instead of killing isn't all that bad:
-Dreadnought and Tombstalker are often as good as dead when bounced.

-You can occasionally deny your 3+c opponent mana and the bounced creature isn't coming back.

-Decks often have more cards than they have mana to cast cards with vs. you (especially since most decks in the format have a card advantage engine and spend some mana not playing threats, be it lock pieces, counters, filtering, equipment or whatever).

This is especially true vs. aggro/control where you win not through attrition, but racing enough points through their defenses; in that scenario, while Goyf is one of the better cards they could be casting with their mana, they're still not getting any "extra plays" out of having a card returned to their hand vs. killed.

-Goblins is the deck with inevitability in most of the match-ups. Therefore you just need to slow the opponent down while you play more lands and draw cards and bouncing their threat gets you there just as well.

List of advantages Stingscourger has over removal spells:
-It's a Goblin that acts as a targeted removal against targets of any size for 2 mana that can avoid counters in a multitude of fashions. Any other card in this game does not fulfill all those 4 criteria (StP? Not a Goblin. Weirding? Cannot target (nice Factory/Trinket/Naught you just killed, I still have my Nought/Mongoose/Stalker). Gempalm? Very limited by size and by Gobs in play (against red, you want something to slow them down turn 2 and Gempalm does not deliver.).

-As stated, it can be Vialed and Lackeyed in. The latter is especially valuable against Dreadstill, pretty much forcing them to respect Lackey (which they really can't afford since they need to race with a Dreadnought in play, meaning you can evade their whole countersuite and send the Nought packing, or get a Piledriver through or some such).

Vial is even more powerful, allowing you to change combat math entirely bouncing a Goyf/Stalker/Nought and blocking a Goyf. Also, EOT removes a blocker (or upkeep in response to the Vial-trigger if you have a Warchief and want to swing with the Scourger while still ramping Vial for a Ringleader/SGC). All the while ignoring counters.

-It blocks. Most aggro/control decks need to kill you before you get into the lategame zone of dropping a bunch of 3-4CC Goblins in a turn and just overwhelming them. Stopping that 3 damage from a 'Goose/Nacatl or 5 from a Goyf is easily worth it, as well as having them spend removal to get the damage through or not attack. All have the same net effect.

-It swings. When you have a Warchief, this comes up in actual normal games a lot (2 extra damage+2 per piledriver is pretty fcking huge). The same goes for games where you are topdecking non-CA Goblins with plenty of mana; then you might as well pay the Echo and have a 6-mana 2/2. It needs to be dealt with all the same if you're both equally out.

-It's red. This means that when your manabase is disrupted, you're guaranteed an access to it. This also means that you don't need to fetch off-colour sources to use it on turn 2 making your manabase development much more fluent.


So Stingscourger is great and compares reasonably to e.g. Warren Weirdings (the big drawback here is Stifle, but there're no free Stifles or Stiflebalances or such so your mana disruption works fine there, and many decks have already burned their Stifles on other things such as their Noughts, your Wastes, your fetches, your Matrons, your Ringleaders, your SGCs, your Lackeys and similars).

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Originally Posted by Wrecked

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
2 [A] Taiga
3 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

Thoughts?

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I my self love some type of maindeck artifact hate either tinstreet or goblin tinker , and with wort its gonna be goblin tinker.

With earwigs, Most of the time I wanted them to be siege- gangs

So with that
+1 siege-gange
+1 tinker
-2earwigs
You have grips in the side for plauge. (see next change v.s combo)

I would also :
-3 price of progres
-1 pyrokinesis
+4 thorn of amethyst or +4 challace of the void (depends therpys could be pyrostatic pillars)
I have been playing with just 2 fanatics ( I would never cut them totally ) the reason is I made room for the stingscorchers and fanatic are still usfull.
-1 fanatic

I like to play no less than 23 lands in this decks because it craves mana for ports/siege-ganges.
and I want black mana a lot of the time for therpys.

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
1 swamp
2 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

I was working on a mono red build but I keep getting torn between the builds

anyway hope this helps:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Wrecked

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
2 [A] Taiga
3 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [FNM] Goblin Ringleader
4 [FNM] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

Thoughts?

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I am very skeptical about your mana base. It seems a bit much to run Badlands, Taigas, Wastelands, and Ports. I would think you could suffer from color-screw, especially against decks that run Wasteland against you. I think you should only run three of those four. Either, cut the Taigas or the Ports.

I've never tried Stingscourger, so I can't really comment there.

I'm very borderline on Earwigs. I recently cut mine after playing 2 MD for months. Still not sure if that was the right choice.

I think you should definately run at least one more Siege-Gang Commander. I moved up to playing three myself. They make your Lackeys a lot more powerful. Some decks just scoop on turn two if you can cheat in a Siege-Gang.

I actually cut my Gempalm Incinerators in order to run four Weirdings. Weirdings seem to be better in most of the matchups that I see nowadays. The fact that more people are trying Progenitus makes it even better.

I'm also skeptical about Pyrokinesis in the sideboard. The only top tier deck that you side it in for is Goblins. I actually like Tin Street Hooligan in that slot (or Tinkerer if you must) much better. It can be sided in against any deck that plays dangerous artifacts. It's also improves your chances in the mirror more than Pyrokinesis (which is usually a 2 for 2). It's really hard to lose if you can force your opponent to play without Aether Vials, while you run yours.

I can see the point about SGC, but I actually bumped up my Earwigs to 3. It always seems to come in and take out the most difficult card for me to overcome, not to mention I'm running into CoP:R a lot more, which not only does it do the job of removing, but also negating. Can't hardly beat a 5/3 for 3, either.

Again, I'm expecting to play in a low budget high aggro meta, thus a lot of Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, etc. I agree with my suite of Incinerator/Scourger, that I could probably cut back, but 'Kinesis is pretty big in the mirror. This is also why I chose Incinerator, as I don't think many people at this GPT will have the duals to play the decks that Incinerator is at its worst against, like Dreadstill.

Wort really hasn't come into play for me, at all. So I cut it for the 3rd Earwig, but I might look at going something like:

MD:
-1 Wort
+1 SGC

SB
-1 'Kinesis
+1 Earwig/Wort/Sharpshooter etc.

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Originally Posted by Wrecked

Wort really hasn't come into play for me, at all. So I cut it for the 3rd Earwig, but I might look at going something like:

MD:
-1 Wort
+1 SGC

SB
-1 'Kinesis
+1 Earwig/Wort/Sharpshooter etc.

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I still have the one main deck Wort, but I'm not completely thrilled with it. It usually doesn't live long enough to do any tricks, and I find myself often boarding it out.

Wort shines against mid-range creature decks that don't pack a ton of removal. UGw Threshold and Merfolk come to mind. You can break those decks if you can recur your Weirdings and other goblins. I think I keep him MD because of the popularity of Thresh, but perhaps he would actually be better as a sideboard card.

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Originally Posted by Wrecked

I don't think many people at this GPT will have the duals to play the decks that Incinerator is at its worst against, like Dreadstill.

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Don't assume anything ....many people may not ,the ones you have to beat to get the byes will ..

Luckily, goblins is wonderful at pounding lower-end decks into the ground so just assume you're going to play the better ones anyway.