I think that against zoo its better chalice at 1 and if they lose a 2/2 exalted creature to deal with chalice its ok. Since then, they was doing nothing and maybe meanwhile they draw pridemage we have set up or have another chalice at hand.
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I think that against zoo its better chalice at 1 and if they lose a 2/2 exalted creature to deal with chalice its ok. Since then, they was doing nothing and maybe meanwhile they draw pridemage we have set up or have another chalice at hand.
Yeah, there's no point to setting a lone Chalice at two. What you really want is a pair of them for one and two, but if you only have a single copy in hand, you have to set it to one. Not only does it affect more of their deck, but if you set a Chalice at two first, then you can't Chalice at one if you draw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-ucard
I just put the deck together, and countertop is everywhere so Ive yet to face it. How does the matchup go anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
It basicly goes
turn one play chalice @1 or trinnisphere
turn 2 play pemanent
repeat turn 2 play afew more times
if they get out an early goyf, they might win but if they dont stick a threat for more than 2 turns you win.
Hi I'm new to this thread. I was wondering if there are any optimal lists that you as a stax player would run if you had no budget. Thanks!
K1LO's list (post #1991) is pretty hot. If you're not confident in your ability to finish rounds quickly enough, you can sub in a pair of Baneslayers for a Trinisphere and a Magus. If you want to, squeezing in a second copy of Ravages somewhere might be good (he mentions this in his post as well). Also, consider Suppression Field maindeck over Trinisphere, it's a metagame choice, but worth thinking about. Sphere is great against combo but pretty can be frustrating against Vial decks or Zoo. Field is great against Zoo (fuck you, Pridemage) and hoses random Vial/Fetchland/Top shenanigans all day, but it's not going to stop somebody from pissing all over you with LEDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
EDIT -- I forgot to mention, as K1LO said in a later post, if you have a truly unlimited budget you should run the split as 3 Ravages/1 Geddon. No one is ever going to throw their G1 Meddling Mage/Therapy at Ravages instead of Geddon, the chances of their opponent having the budget to play 3 Ravages is ridiculously low.
I think I might try this with Kilo1's list:
2/2 split between Magus and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2/2 split between Armaggeddon and Ravages of War
And maybe taking out a Sphere and Smoke Stack for a Smokestack for:
+2 Baneslayer Angel
What do you think?
If you're wondering about the purse size...I'm thinking about taking apart my fully powered ANT deck (vintage). So I can sell some power and still make the deck.
Now i understand because 2 tabernacle requires a great budget!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
On the other hand i like baneslayer. Off course you'll soft lock you oppos in exchange on winning faster.
Were you being sarcastic with the 2 tabernacles comment? Just wondering. Yeah, it's pretty expensive now. Pretty much 250ish for 1. I have a Lotus, Jet, Twister, and Recall. I forgot I don't own a Sapphire. But, I think that should still cover the price of the deck. I don't know...What are your guys opinion on this matter? Would you deconstruct vintage if you had these cards to make this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
If I were to sell off my P9, I wouldn't blow the majority of it on Tabernacle. Tabernacle is incredibly narrow and only used in 2 competitive decks; Stax and Lands. I would much rather obtain Legacy staples; cards that you use in a wide array of decks. Duals, fetches, Goyfs, FoW, Chalice, etc. IF you already have every Legacy staple (due to playing Vintage), then I suppose getting a Tabernacle wouldn't be a waste as most of the deck is semi-cheap otherwise. I'd stick with 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War; Meddling Mage has fallen out of favor in many, many sideboards that are able to support him.
We had a legacy tournament last night and I went 3-1 and only lost to zoo. Supression field worked great but wasn't enough. What other cards would you guys suggest for any zoo or aggro build. I got the lock on every other deck without a problem. thanks.
Playing with standard Armageddon Stax, Zoo is a sucky matchup if they land a Pridemage/Teeg before we can get lock pieces out. I've usually relied on O.Ring, Wrath, and/or Sphere of Law to help... it still sucks balls though.
If you're running the Dutch Stax version, Humility followed by Moat is GG if you drop Humility before they get Teeg out. It's still rough; Zoo has the means to get 1-2 retarded creatures out before you can really do anything and then they ride that to victory backed up by decent burn.
Maybe sphere of law i guess...and off course O-ring helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moduloc
thanks for the help, I never considered sphere of law. sounds like just what i needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I would never sell off power for Tabernacle. Tabernacle isn't integral to the deck. I still play a slightly modified version of the exact decklist listed in the opening post of this thread (the only changes I made are that I play either 2 O. Ring or 2 Cataclysm and 2 Angels instead of the 4 EE and I play 3 Wasteland instead of the 3 Crystal Vein). So basically I'm playing...Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
0 Tabernacle
4 Magus of Tabernacle
0 Ravages of War
4 Armageddon
0 Moat
and occasionally a Cataclysm or two.
Unlike Tabernacle, Magus doesn't get blown up by your own Armageddon (thanks to your own Flagstones, Mox Diamonds or simply planning ahead by playing your land drop for the turn after you Geddon). Magus stays in play to cost your opponents every single creature they have after your Armageddon. Pendrall Vale doesn't do that.
The decklist doesn't feel the least bit suboptimal. The only thing that feels suboptimal in my list is that I opt to play the far cheaper Battlegrace Angel instead of Bankslayer Angel and the deck still operates very well. There are a couple of advantages to Baneslayer over Battlegrace (first stike, pro dragon) but the only creature against which they seem to matter is Tombstalker). Not enough to justify the 100 fold increase in the price IMO. I would get the Bankslayer Angel whenever it rotates out of Standard as it is worth it, but the Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale lands aren't IMO. The deck still functions perfectly with 4 Magus instead. I would bet that even if I cut some Magus of the Tabernacle and got ahold of and played 2 Tabernacle, it would improve my win percentage by less than 1%. Why plop down so much money for such an incremental gain?
@ Magus of the Tabernacle vs. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale:
You can play this deck with just Magus as it almost works the same, is a great blocker and attacker, but the original Tabernacle as a 1-off won me more games than the 4th Magus would have done, because it comes down a little earlier (matters against Dredge, Elves, Goblins, ...), can be pitched to Mox Diamond and be recurred with Crucible of Worlds. Nevertheless, Iīd never play with less than 3 Magus as he is just that great too.
@ Armageddon vs. Ravages of War:
If you really can afford Ravages so play it over Armageddon, as it matters sometimes (e.g. against Landstill, Bant Aggro/Survival) and just does exactly the same, compared to Magus and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. But, I must confess, that Iīve only ever lost one game where a 2nd or 3rd Ravages over Armageddon would have made the difference.
If I wouldnīt own The Tabernacle and Ravages, I bought them some time ago when they were cheap, because of my Highlander-decks I wouldnīt buy them right now as they are just not worth their pricey investment over Magus or Armageddon (the same with Baneslayer Angel right now) and Stax isnīt such a good deck at all. Iīd rather get other Legacy-staples (e.g. more Duals, Phyrexian Dreadnought, ...) and NEVER sell any power just to buy these. If someone wants to quit Vintage and get more into Legacy, please donīt waste your money on hardly needed Stax-cards, but get you a real competitive deck instead.
@ Zoo-matchup:
Last tournament Iīve lost two straight games against a Zoo-player who got flooded in both games to get besides my Trinisphere, Wasteland and three! Ghostly Prisons and of course I didnīt draw an Armageddon-effect and my Crucibles got destroyed by Qasali Pridemages. Shit happens, although Iīd say that it is a pretty even matchup. Against Zoo I didnīt like the Suppression Fields from the sideboard, but Iīm going to test them as a 4-off again as you sometimes have to land two of them to prevent any activated abilities. The card I sided in the most during the whole tournament was the 4th Oblivion Ring which Iīd really like to be maindeck, but canīt find any room for it. Journey to Nowhere was great too, as you have to get rid of those Meddling Mages and Gaddocks to play Armageddon or Smokestack.
Greetz, K1LO
So what would you say is a top deck that should be built then that is well worth the investment.
Anything that involves Forces, Goyfs, and Trops. It gives you a lot of flexibility, once you have the core cards it's not difficult to switch between decks like Tempo Thresh, Supreme Blue, Countertop Bant, Bant Survival, etc. There are tons of options to work from once you have blue duals, Goyfs, and Forces. Stax doesn't give you nearly as many ways to use your cards. The main money cards in a normal Stax build are the Mox Diamonds, which can also go in Aggro Loam or 43 lands, but the rest of the cards mostly just work for other stompy/prison decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by myw002
This deck isn't a bad investment by any means. It's a lot of fun and let's you switch over to playing Dragon Stompy and Faierie Stompy as well. I'm saying investing $300 to get Tabernacle or Ravages solely for this deck when your budget is tight isn't a good investment. The deck does function perfectly well and plays essentially the same without Tabernacle or Ravages since Magus and Armageddon are pretty much just as good and do the same thing.
If you like Aggro, build Zoo, if you like Aggro Control build Countertop or Merfolk and if you like prison build this. You can't go wrong with any of those choices, It all depends on your playstyle.
"and Stax isnīt such a good deck at all."
It's that exact statement that lead me to believe that perhaps was not as well off in the legacy format as I had thought. Perhaps, this is an incorrect statement? I am interested in this deck, otherwise, why would I post here.