Huntmaster can no longer be Abrupt Decay - ed. Seems nice to have.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Was just coming here to post this. That also makes Garruk Relentless several orders of magnitude better.
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Huntmaster can no longer be Abrupt Decay - ed. Seems nice to have.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Was just coming here to post this. That also makes Garruk Relentless several orders of magnitude better.
Was just coming here to post this. That also makes Garruk Relentless several orders of magnitude better.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
omg this is interesting news. delver still dies to decay so FTB. Garruk seems better like you said.
FYI they changed the rules on double faced cards, the back side now has the same CMC as the front side :D
This means a flipped Garruk relentless no longer dies to abrupt decay :D
Bad news is deed for 0 will no longer kill flipped delver..
Wish that was the rule to begin with, I'm still salty that my flipped delver, Garruk and wolf token all died to a ratchet bomb way back in an FNM standard -.-
I think I'm fine trading not being able to EE/Deed@0 to kill flipped Delvers with Garruk being notably better.
In fact, this change makes EE -much- better against Delver, because now EE@1 will hit 8/12 of their creatures, whereas before their 12 were split 4/4/4 across 0/1/2 cmc.
It also means that our own Deeds can more reliably be one-sided in Jund since we can sweep for X<=3 and not kill flipped Huntmaster.
Lol I was so late. And yea that's a really good point Arianrhod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Hmm... Is Garruk relent a main deck card or side? What kind of builds does he fit in? I've never really tried him in legacy of modern because of dying to bolt and decay. I guess he works well with equipment? ;)
garruk is the sideboard pw. He is 2/2s ever turn. he kills a small creature to flip and then pump out 1/1 peepee-touchers. You can sack one to tutor up a rhino or overrun for the kill outta nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
He is very good vs Miracles and control on overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Good thing Decay still hits the new blue wall, because that thing is going to be absurd.
Kinda like that new wall, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
CMC 2 will be busted in a gitaxian shell I guess.
Because if not it's gonna be a little slow for the Legacy meta (T4 at the soonest)
I like that you can actually just eot smth like brainstorm to bounce dudes and swing with a monster while holding mana up for when they bring them back down. Helps out against aggro decks as a wall that could at anytime nuke their board. sort of like when you have a deed in play they have to beat the board but not get wiped out by deed.
If nothing else its some sweet flavor card that has high upside. I can also dream about bouncing my own snaps/witnesses for all the value too right?
Yep, anything with an ETB trigger reads value at that point !Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
the card looks promising but im too lazy to test it.
I would love to play some probe, therapy, strix, snap deck where the bounce is actually a plus for us. Gsz triggering the flip getting the creature and having absurd amounts of power in play seems really cool. Not sure Nic fit is the best place for that as I am not sure the 2 game plans line up a whole lot but I do know this card has real potential.
If you take the last counter off this with a GSZ, the trigger will resolve first, clearing the board, then you will resolve GSZ and put another creature into play. Super beating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I played around with this idea of how large a deck can be taken a bit more. My basis for the maximum size is based on when the mana starts to get weaker. In my opinion there's no reason to go beyond 60/61 unless you're not just getting tutor targets out of it, but that your mana situation is also improving. With that in mind I pushed the manabase to 12 fetches and some utility lands. My theory being that once fetches cease to be optimal, it's time to stop increasing the deck size. That results in the following manabase (swap lands to preference), 27 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
If you count that up it's 27 lands and it can support color fixing better than 61 card lists up to 73 cards.
From that point, there are a few other cards to add to maintain consistency. Most notably you need more tutors, sac outlets, and mana acceleration. Keeping this proportional requires adding to the stock lists 2 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Diabolic Intent, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 SDT, and 1 Deed.
So out of the +13 cards 5 need to be lands and 6 need to be support, which leaves you with just +2 tutor options for a near 25% increase in deck size (and I found that in practice 1 of those 2 should probably be removal).
So the conclusion is that you're adding 13 cards to gain 1 tutor target which just doesn't seem worth it.
For reference, this was the 73 card list I came up with
Land 27
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
Creatures 20
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abzan Charm
1 Crop Rotation
Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment 4
4 Pernicious Deed
All in all it just doesn't really seem worth it having to jump through that many hoops and weakening the Therapy/Explorer combo to gain such a small boost to the toolbox.
Considering that it took 13 cards to add one more, that brings me back to the conclusion that 61 is likely the strongest configuration.
I know right!!! Tutor up a big green haste monster and crash.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Therapy plays great with this guy, so does gsz (creature that takes a counter off). Painful truths/library would be nice refill late game. Man, this with thragtusks!
This is my current list updated for Shusher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firepaw3
//Artifact (2)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
//Creature (14)
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Vexing Shusher
//Enchantment (4)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
//Sorcery (16)
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Scapeshift
//Land (24)
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Still a pretty standard list. This talk about new DFC rule, I want to try out Garruk Relentless.
When would the new DFC rules apply? The day when SOI released?
Yesterday night and friend of mine and me sat down for a number of games. I played Rhino's Abbondanza sig list and he was on the SCG top8 RGb Lands list. Perfect MU for testing since that is going te be one to take into account in the current meta. I ended up winning 2-0, 2-1, 1-0. The deck seems to be slower then straight RG Lands, misses PFire (which would defenitly killed me a couple of games) and it dredges worse (binning it's removal/pressure (Molten Vortex)). On the other hand, Molten Vortex on the BF can spit out 6/8 damage a turn with ease, but dies to Decay/Deed and can be Needled. Some notes;
* Surgical Extraction is THE best card against lands. It hits Depths, Loam, etcand does so T0. The good part is that Surgical is not a narrow card to run, like say Blood Moon.
* 4 Path to Exile really helped. Between SDT and a lot of shuffle effect i was able to hold back Marit Lage enough to squeeze thru a win, even G1.
* Karakas was decend, but holdin back Karakas until it becomes relevant is important. And after it gets Wasteland a Eternal Witness brings it back once more.
* Scavanging Ooze is really strong in this MU, but he needs to eat at least 3 creatures to stay alive. So Mana mana mana.
* being able to live of entirely of Basics really helps here. I spammed the shit out of Dora. Again having 7 basics was just perfect.
* one game went long and i hit Nissa. That card really boosted my game and buried him in CA.
* Pithing Needle really shined, hitting Maze of Ith was relevant for winning.
* Sigarda is next to impossible for them to get rid of. Plus it dodges Maze.
* DRS seems good but actually is shit since it get removed asap.
* I boarded out 3 Decay, 1 Rhino and DLD for 1 QPM, 2 Surgical, 1 Peedle and 1 Golgari Charm.
* Charm hits Vortex, Dark Confidant (which i didnt see since he didnt board them) and regens a Sigarda blocking Marit Lage.
* Siege Rhino helped me win. The final game we played was a struggle on both sides. I had Courser out and Siege Rhino. I was on 22 life. And i was holding Karakas and Eternal Wintness. After trading resouces, and topdecking a Path i was left on 4 life, E.Witness and Rhino, whilr he had 2 Mazes and he was on 3 life. I got to untap knowing i'd die if i pass the turn. So he asks me; "Do you have a Lightning Bolt?", and laughs. So i said; "No, but this looks very similar.". I tap 4 mana and slam Rhino at the table and both laughed.
Hi guys, I'm new to this deck. I'm running a fairly standard Junk/Rino version that I saw on these pages.
I play on MTGO. Here is the meta. As you can see the number one spot is Miracles with 11%. And I consistently lose to it.
Can anyone give me some advice? Any tips or ticks, any specific cards that are good to maindeck/sideboard. Sideboarding strategy. Any lists that are well tuned against miracles? Any good videos. Anything really.
What are your thoughts on the Miracles matchup?
Thanks.
Can you list your deck and sideboard?
In general the MU is 50/50 at best. The biggest thing to look out for is that you don't overcommit on the board. Also, when you get to GSZ for X = 5, don't. GSZ for X = 6 instead. CMC 6 = Counterbalance -> Terminus on top.
Also make sure that you are boarding out 4/4 Vets/Therapies. You should have 8 cards in your board specifically for Miracles -- by which I mean, several (2-3) cards "for" the matchup (extra planeswalkers or bombs, Tsunami, etc), and the rest (5-6) things that splash between multiple matchups: Krosan Grip, Golgari Charm, Pithing Needle, Engineered Plague sometimes, stuff like that.
Against Miracle, if we sided in Slaughter games, how about the naming orders? Their winning conditions are diversified now, so naming Mentor or EtA seems not effective.
The Junk version is a little bit unfavored in this MU i feel.
Here you need stuff like Slaughter Games, Combat Walkers, Gaddock Teeg, Thragtusk, Sigarda and Thrun. Some, not all.
Most important here is Jace. This is difficult to get rid of. SG and Walkers help here.
Trick is to scoop quick if you have the slightest feeling G1 ain't gonna work. Thus way you have more time for g2/3. Games a mega grindy. Otherwise, try to force a draw. Better a draw then a loss.
Play 1 threat at a time to nullify the effect of Terminus.
Pernicious deed is really important in the MU for Mentor and Entreat.
Be careful with your Veteran trigger. Speeding up their games is often more dangerous then you speeding up the yours.
Name Jace with 1st SG. When looking at their deck check what other threats he has. Based on how the game develops choose something with most effect for you to force a win, or prevent loosing.
Slow and steady wins the race. But know when to act.
I still test the Eldrazi menace, but i always read how this deck develop and how well you guys doing with Nic Fit!
I like the new rules, since it makes Garruk (always a fan of him), Huntmaster and Nissa far better with Deed. Even EE is good if you don't want to kill your own Token but need to get rid of a Delver. Speaking of EE you can also get enemy Nimble/Deathrites/Delver while profit from the kill of your own Explorers.
The good thing with Eldrazi is, that Matchups like Miracle and (more important for Nic Fit) Combo are affected. This will lead to some fairer Matchups, like BGx stuff (naturally do well vs Stompy) and you all know that any Nic Fit version is a beast once the meta is based on fair midrange decks.
In the past i played Punishing, Scape and BUG Pod for a while, but i still like the Junk/Rhino lists (so much toys!). If i would test the GBW stuff i would try the following build (based on Arianrhod latest list):
Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
Creature (16)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Shriekmaw
2x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer
Artifact (5)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment (5)
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Sylvan Library
Sorcery (9)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Instant (3)
3x Abrupt Decay
Sideboard (15)
1x Ajani Steadfast
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pithing Needle
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
I made some changes, basically i like to avoid 6 drops - sure all have a lot of power, but hands can be very clunky sometimes and the Junk-build has so many other bombs, manasinks etc. that i see it as a "win more" most of the time. So i basically lower the mana curve a bit. A tech from my games with sylvan plug: Shriekmaw + Meren, i think it will also work here and (bonus points) Eldrazi are legal targets too. Not sure if the list needs good old Tusk, but with Sylvan Library, Recurring Nightmare and Phyrexian Tower it seems good enough (unlike Rhino it kills Reality Smasher) and it is still a good card vs Miracle. I chose Library over Painful Truths since it comes down faster (turn 1 therapy, turn 2 zenith for explorer and 2 left mana etc.), maybe only one copy is enough with tops/deed.
Since Glissa, the Traitor found a home, besides EE i also like Batterskull as a annoying, resilient threat. Sideboard is a colourful mix from various cards. I like Rec.Sage over K.Grip because it is tutorable and while Miracle with Top can be a pain i think this pile of cards pack more than enough trouble for Miracle (and you still can Needle top if needed, thanks to Library).
I am still a fan of 2-3 Decay in any Nic Fit shell, because sometimes it isn't easy to set up Explorer-Ramp while your opponent rides an aggressive delver to victory supported with a bunch of disruption. Decay stops early threats to buy some time - once mana is developed Nic Fit should overpower most decks with various cards, key was always to survive long enough.
Your build has a couple of flaws. First off the manabase - lower the number of duals and up the number of fetches. This'll give you a higher number of initial mana of each colour across the board so you don't colourscrew yourself. Also plays very well with Top/Library. I'd probably also swap Karakas for a second Phyrexian Tower. T1 Veteran into T2 Tower blows almost everything out of the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Second - Glissa is in no way a reason to run an Engineered Explosives. People don't quite understand that yet, but they will in time. Glissa is there b/c of the keyword abilities she sports and nothing more. As I've said before, all else is flavor text. Looping Engineered Explosives is just wishful thinking, especially if you don't run Diabolic Intents (yes, plural). The same goes for that lone Shriekmaw without any way to tutor for it, by the way. Sure, swapping an Engineered Explosives in for a Deed is fine, but not b/c you're going to loop it.
Next there's Recurring Nightmare. It just doesn't have a place in this deck anymore. Meren does its job better. I'd replace it with a Siege Rhino. Same goes for that Thragtusk. Or you might want to throw in another DRS.
Last there's your removal suite. You can get away with running quite a small suite, but when wanting to do so it does need to have reach. If you don't, you open yourself up to getting blown out by random CMC > 3 creatures (i.e. the stuff that's as big or bigger than yours). The 3 AD are better of being PtEs. That way, at least you can answer Gurmag Angler/the Eldrazi deck/random big dudes when you don't have Glissa.
I mean, I ran EE because I wanted another sweeper and it happened to work with Glissa. EE is actually positioned very well in the metagame right now, especially since we can make 4 colors thanks to the sideboard Slaughter splash. I agree that specifically running it because of Glissa is incorrect thinking, but there's nothing wrong with running it and running Glissa -- and if that ever happens to come together, then hey, cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Shriekmaw with Meren is adorable. There's probably a very good Meren-focused version somewhere with multiple Tribe-Elders and Shriekmaws -- possibly BUG with Mulldrifter? I just use Meren as a tool, not as a centerpiece, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a build somewhere built to abuse her as much as possible.
Nightmare is still fine. There are still very few cards that rip open a board state at parity as much as Nightmare does, and Nightmare plays well WITH Meren. She's not easy to kill, but it can happen (Dismember in particular), and having a way to get her back is pretty good. I also really like what Nightmare does vs Liliana of the Veil: sometimes you get to pretend to be a reanimator deck, which is hilarious. Nightmare is the type of card that is a quiet roleplayer most of the time, and a really flashy hellion the rest of the time. While you will win some games because of it, it's much more often that you'll only use it once or twice for value, and that's fine.
Most significantly, Nightmare is the closest that Rhino lists get to having inevitability, which is a very important concept to Nic Fit in particular. The best Nic Fits historically have been those with combo finishes or some kind of inevitable gameplan that will eventually come together, given enough time, and WILL win the game. Scapewish, PFire a couple years ago (because metagame), the old Rector lists with Yosei and Kokusho (before Deathrite Shaman)...etc. Meren falls into the BUG camp -- she kind of wins the game, but she wins the game by drowning the opponent in value, and just drawing a bunch of cards isn't really going to effectively close a game. Setting up a Nightmare loop, on the other hand, will actually go about the business of signing a match slip. This is in no way meant to discredit Meren as a viable card -- I think she's quite good and not going anywhere -- but don't be so quick to dismiss Nightmare.
I usually name jtms and then terminus. Both best cards against us. Miracles is a headache to play against both because they take forever to do anything and most of the online pilot are douches. I hate the deck and wish it weren't a thing. I would say outside of glass cannon combo, its our worst matchup but im probably wrong because, like I said, I hate that deck and wish W: instant board wipe weren't a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
JTMS is definitely correct first name. From there, you need to look at their individual decklist and see what you can do to hurt them the most. Some people still only have Jace and Entreat for wincons, in which case you hit their Entreat. Sometimes they'll have like 1 Entreat 2 Mentor 1 Clique 1 Baneslayer and you can either take their Mentors (fastest clock) or their Terminuses (best interaction), depending on how you want to play the matchup; or their Force of Wills if you're on a combo version like Scape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Ricardio, how many K.Grips are you usually running? Hitting their Tops while also attacking their deck is the easiest way to play the matchup postboard. Deed/Decay in response to Therapy, Grip, Needle or Null Rod (depending on your own # of Tops) are the best ways to hurt them. If you're short other things to bring in, Surgicaling their Brainstorms (and Ponders, if they're running them) can really aggravate them, as well. Basically anything you can do to remove their deck manipulation is gas.
I agree with what Ricardio said about the miracles topic.
My only question is: do you guys bring in surgicals against them? I don't, but I want to know how you all board in this match up.
I've been naming Terminus first with Slaughter Games then Jace when the second casting comes along. My reason for this is that they only have Swords and Councils Judgement remaining as removal spells, their Jace becomes much weaker against our plethora of creatures. This forces them to play into the Entreat or Mentor plan, which is weak to our P Deeds.
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I don't, personally. I always make sure I have enough other things in my board that I'd rather bring in. For example, with my Rhino list from a page or two back, I would -4 Vet -4 Therapy, -2 Deluge; +2 Slaughter, +2 Needle, +2 Grip, +1 Elspeth, Sun's Champ, +1 Dromoka (was Wurmcoil), +1 Golgari Charm (was Sorin, got replaced), +1 Engineered Plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
That's an interesting line. How has it been working out for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
So far it has worked every time. A Slaughter games for Terminus has always won. I agree that hitting Jace because of its card advantage first is a better play, but nixing their sweeper will allow you to overpower them quite easily. The only time I'd name Jace first is if I know it's in their hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I side accordingly:
Out:
4 Veteran Explorers
4 Cabal Therapies
1 Scavenging Ooze
In:
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vraska the Unseen
Miracles players tend to board in RiP against us, so I don't think Surgical Extraction is that great of an idea.
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I don't like the Thoughtseizes, but if that's what you've got, that's what you've got.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
The whole Junk sideboard looks like
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Glissa the Traitor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Slaughter Games
What would you suggest I change, card availability is not an issue.
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As far as I am concerned, I kinda like "surgical" against Miracle:
- It messes up with Snapcaster shenanigans
- It messes up with top + miracle.
RIP is definitely not guaranteed against us as it also shut down their Snap.
Just watch out and make the right call, but I would blindly side Surgical in against Miracle.
Grip is the biggest thing that's missing from your board. I'd probably shave a Thoughtseize and the Glissa for a pair of Grips, which would then put you to +2 Games, +1 Vraska, +1 G.Charm, +1 Teeg, +1 Sage, +2 Grip for -4 Vet -4 Therapy. You're not super happy to leave Deluge in, but it still does something against the Mentor versions, at least, and you can't ever really know for sure that any given Miracles player doesn't have Mentors in their list (or sideboard) somewhere, lurking to fist you from the shadows.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
I like Glissa in the main, personally -- she has the highest % to steal games vs Eldrazi in g1, before they tune their removal suite postboard and have 4 Dismembers. I also dislike Teeg in general (especially when your plan is to bring in Vraska and Slaughters), but at the end of the day, what works for me may not work for you. Warden loves Teeg. We had a conversation about Teeg this weekend, actually -- he basically played Teeg just as a pseudo 2x Time Walk vs Elves and then happily Deluged it away, when he could've Deluged for 1 to keep his Teeg and DRS, but leave them with DRS. I think part of my issue with Teeg is that I view him as a lock piece -- something like Nether Void, that when it's out, you can no longer interact with (mostly because you no longer want to). I just can't grok the concept of playing him as a temporary thing, knowing that you're playing him as a temporary thing, and being okay with that.
http://i.imgur.com/QwuiRbL.png
With this list against miracles.
out:
3 path
2 therapy
2 vet
in:
3 slaughter
3 seize
1 garruk
I like having 4 decay for all their stuff and I think some number of therapy and vet are necessary.
I agree, discard is good against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
One thing about your list: no pulse (in addition to vindicate)? I do always see a lot of JTMS usually and pulse+vindicate +3 tips to find them has been crucial in my experience
I'd easily play pulse over courser to be honest, giving away information is so bad. My 0.2c