yep, imo that's definitely an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by god_campbell
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yep, imo that's definitely an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by god_campbell
Good to see you post again here! :smile: Besideds the fact that I almost don't play magic anymore (I really have no time... :cry:), I've stepped back from speedstill towards a more linear and classic approach (list below). With the banning of MT combo is not obviously dead, but a) we should handle reanimator better b) storm combo becomes even more skill intensive, that either you walk into a good combo player and lose anyway, either you are paired with a mediocre combo player and you have some chances to beat him, either the deck focuses on explosiveness over consistency and we should have a chance to handle it like belcher, say. (These are rough considerations, I know. Let's just pretend for the sake of arguments they are true.) If these considerations are true, and aggro/aggrocontrol decks take the most part of the meta (I'm speaking at least of my portion of Italy), then a twist back to speedstill should be considered (although I have to guard from rock and the like...).Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Regarding your list, and given the tests I had with mine, I have to admit I don't like top anymore. Jace's brainstorm ability practically nullifies the influence of top on your topdecks, and however the deck points at card advantage more than anything (in testing, I substituted top with 2 dojs and never looked back). I think I'll try to squeeze some cc4 bomb in, such as:
-1 path
-2 top
-1 EE
+2 elspeth
+2 humility,
rearranging a bit the manabase. And i'd probably substitute the spell pierces with negates in the sb.
That's because progenitus is still a concern, and if more s&t decks show up, it's good to have humility with us. On Elspeth's topic, I should agree that jace 2.0 somehow takes the slots of the knight errant.
__________
Here's the list I'm curently testing:
4 BS
4 SStill
3 Jace 2.0
3 doj
2 elspeth
4 fow
3 CS
3 SSnare
4 stp
3 EE
2 humility
2 wrath of god
24 mixed lands w/ no land denial nor academy ruins
Really standard one, and I have yet to consider the argument fof/jace 2.0. And I want some path to exile in the mix.
I played UW landstill at the St. Louis 5k yesterday. I started off 3-0, then things started to fall apart. This probably had something to due with me not getting any sleep since 10 am the previous day. My deck was pretty amazing, but I was not starting game two of round four. I ran straight UW, no Wish, and no Jaces. I had two that I was thinking about playing, but I put FoF back in and it definitely was the right call.
I played a Cunning Wish list yesterday at a 30 man GPT. 3 of my 5 opponents had at least 2 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor in their deck. This made my Jace such a sub-par card it was embarrassing. Jace won me a single game, while wasting time protecting him or being unable to play him because of opposing Jaces easily cost me 2 games. He's almost certainly becoming the 3rd Fact or Fiction and I'm going to look for another win condition, either a second Elspeth or Celestial Collonade.
Hi Jashar, nice to see you're getting on the Jace bandwagon. That card is just insane. The list looks really good, especially the full set of EEs. I'd just replace the forth Tundra with a second Volcanic (no need for so much white any more withour Elspeth and that way the triple Firespout is supported better).Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
In my testing, Jace was always awesome when I cast it. He has always been great for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
This is the list I am testing...
U/w Landstill
4 STP
2 PTE
3 WoG
1 Humility
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Elspeth
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace the MindRaper
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Tundra
4 Strand
2 Delta
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Factory
Yes its 61 Cards. The one thing I kind of want is more countermagic. I was thinking of figuring out how to add Spell Pierce or something. Also, I realize some of you might say that the number of win cons is too low. 1 Elspeth, 4 Factory, 2 Jace, 1 Eternal Drag, 1 Decree is kind of low, but I haven't had much of a problem.
Also the 2 Engineered Explosives are at two because A) I dont have a third, and B) it seems to be the right number. I can't really set it past 2, and I usually blow up aggro decks, which is a good match up, and friends with it. It does hit CB pretty well too. But I never really wanted more than 2...sometimes I don't really want to draw it.
What does your guys sideboard look like?
This is mine, so far. Its jank, I know.
SIDEBOARD:
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Pithing Needle
3 Serenity
1 Disenchant
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Relic of Prog
Serenity is tech. The matches where you ever really want to blow up artifacts and enchantments are against Stax and Enchantress. It is boss against those decks. Needles are...fillers I guess. Good against Knight of the Reliquiry. Cannonist is for storm combo. and the extra removal is for the aggros. Was thinking about cutting the humility for another PTE in the board.
What do you guys think about Chalices in the board?
This deck crushes Aggro. I lost to a black/red deck that ran Siezes, Duresses, Hymns, Magus, etc. With Maindeck Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void.
Thoughts? Thanks!!!
Lol@that! :laugh:Quote:
2 Jace the MindRaper
Interesting choice to pair FoF AND Jace 2.0, it looks more like a wincon now than adraw engine (I know hanni already said it! :smile:) I'm just trying to squeeze some fof in the deck and I think -1 humility -1 elspeth could be the way to go, if I find room for another wrath (and atm I barely consider playing less than 3 jace). I don't think you need more MD countermagic, the MD package is solid. Interesting choice the full set of mishra and wasteland, it's long since I saw that config. As for the Sb, why are tou concerned to blow up things and have some combo hate in 6 different slots, when you can use aura of silence and simply have them all in 3? (Aura of silence blocks storm combo, denying free acceleration in the form of lotus petal, moxes etc.; and you don't need chalices). Of course, at least a couple of negate is needed (I don't think you need those 2 pithing needle).
Dismantling blow -> disenchant (doesn't fall under snare, covers the weak spot of cb, eventually generates CA).
Pride of the Clouds UW
Creature : Elemental Cat
1/1
Pride of the Clouds gets +1/+1 for each other creature with flying on the battlefield.
Forecast — 2WU, Reveal Pride of the Clouds from your hand: Put a 1/1 white and blue Bird creature token with flying onto the battlefield. (Activate this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.)
You dunnit wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Any time your opponent has a Jace online, play yours asap or it'll most likely be gg rather soon.
In fact an opposing Jace does not keep you from playing yours, it forces you to do so.
More and more archetypes utilize that monster, which ultimately supports the argument for more Jaces in LS, because chances to get rid of a resolved Jace are really narrow, if you don't play Vindicate.
My options to kill Jace are:
Cast Engineered Explosives with 4 colors of mana (4 Tundra, 1 Underground Sea, 1 Scrubland, 1 Plateau)
Cunning wish for Red Elemental Blast (Courtesy of Plateau)
Attack him with Factory (Colonnade if that works out)
Cycle Decree of Justice at him
Show him Elspeth is a better planeswalker.
I'm not usually too worried about killing my opponents Jace. I'm more upset that my opponent is actively blanking a win condition by playing a copy of it himself. This problem is also present with Elspeth, but she isn't nearly as popular as Jace. People like playing Jace and are cramming it into their decks not necessarily because it improves matchups, but because they want to play with the card. Telling people Jace isn't good in their deck doesn't change their minds, so I'm adapting my list. I want to lean much less on Planeswalkers as a win conditon, which is why I'm at 3 Decrees and and I want to go up to 4 manlands.
Thanks that helped a whole lot! (Edit-I realize that sounds sarcastic, but it isn't. I mean truthfully your sideboard tech helped a lot. thanks for that!) Yea, my draw engine is nuts. Once I land one jace, I really dont wanna see anymore. So two seems fine with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I like the sideboard Aura of Silence. Thanks! I will use that. And Jace + Standstill is retarded good. I have killed quite a few people with Jace.
As for testing...
I beat Merfolk twice, two games a piece. I beat Elves, and Reanimator.
Lost to Mono Brown Stax...he drew Tangle Wire EVERY time he needed it... Never got to land the Serenities...he would drop sphere turns 1 and 2. It was rough.
JaceTM is why I am up to 4 REB's in the board of any deck packing red. He get's out of hand in about 2 turns or so. On a side note, can you bolt (and Kill Him) after just being cast when my opponent uses the +2 ability? If so, does it counter the ability?
Putting the counters on is a cost, so no, it won't kill Jace.
Any intelligent player is going to use a Planeswalker's ability immediately after it resolves, before passing priority. If they drop Jace and use the +2 ability, your Lightning Bolt is SOL.
AFAIK, the abilities of Planeswalker's are played at sorcery speed, so if an opponent does cast a Planeswaker and does not immediately use one if it's abilities before priority is passed, you could kill the Jace with a Lightning Bolt without him being able to ramp it with the +2 ability in response.
This is a really poor argument for not playing Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
If you don't have much of a problem killing an opponent's Jace, then how are they blanking your own copy of Jace? Your reasoning makes no sense.
You're welcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by magicplaya10
Cool you beat merfolk, i used a speedstill list with 3 firespout and 3 reb +3 bolt sb and still lost to my teammate playing the bom's list! :D I heard next sunday's tournamente there is a loro of merfolk/goblin/zoo/faeries/canadian/new horizon and still I'm not sold on FS anymore... I put up the old school landstill with 3 decrees and I badly want to play them! Yeah, probably that's not the right meta to play landstill, but I havent had any test with other deck and I just want to play and possibly smash some faces, so nevermind. Maybe MD bolts instead of path to exile... but i'd keep them in the SB so nvmd again. I have 2 problems:
-1 wasteland or not wasteland? not having decree sucks, as standstill is not fully optimized. Good ol' problem. Vs merfolk and faeries I have to side them out and this is crap obv. wasteland just give me an edge under opponent's standstil, but it's really not that much. The other option is a 4cc manabase with tropical to improve firespout and EE.
-the sb!
Here's more or less the list:
4 tundra
3 mishra
3 wasteland
2 volcanic
2 island
2 plains
1 mountain (should be volcanic #3/plateau, but folks and faeries use wastelands...)
4 flooded
2 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa (should be 3 strand + 3 tarn + glacial fortress, i want to test her)
4 force
3 cs
3 snare
3 standstill
2 fof
4 brainstorm
3 jace 2.0
2 elspeth
1 open slot (humility? vedalken shackles? path#3? bolt#1? decree#1? fof#3? suggestions are welcome)
3 firespout (should be 2 FS +1 wrath??)
4 stp
2 path
3 EE
61 cards (with the open slot; 24 lands)
Sb as for now:
1 wrath of god (should be crucible of worlds)
3 meddling mage
2 lighiting bolt
3 negate
3 red elemental blast (i'm considering a switch with bolts)
3 kitchen finks
The problem with the manabase is the color requirement: UU for counterspell and jace, WW for wrath/elspeth, R for important tool.. that basic mountain should become plateau...
If I'm holding Jace and they have Jace on the table, I have to waste one of my win conditions to take care of their Jace. People are suggesting running Jace as a way to win the game and a way to kill other Jaces. I'm expressing that I don't need Jace as a way to kill Jace, and that as more and more people cram him into their decks he becomes a less desirable win condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
So GP Columbus will be 31 days from today. It will be my first GP, and event with more than 300 people, which is kind of nerve racking. I have been somewhat busy with school, so I haven't had any time to think about what my sideboard will look like for such an event, but the idea of it was brought up today. Some things to consider, if the community here would be kind enough to walk alongst me as I muse.
As mentioned in the previous page, I'm playing a much more classical list with 1 Jace, TMS in the board for the appropriate matchups and none in the MD, 3 Decree of Justice, 2 Fact or Fiction, and only 1 Elspeth. Sadly, as I am finally comfortable with matchups previously deemed as incredibly unfavorable, ANT and Reanimator, tomorrow the official changes will take place, banning Mystical Tutor and an era from Legacy. So much for my sideboard preparations that I spent some time on.
My thoughts as I look ahead to what a 1,000+ man event could bring to the matchup grid mainly lies on a couple of factors, which reflect what players will bring to the event besides our current DtB's. Those three variables are budget, innovation, and opportunity, and I believe can sway the distribution of decks that are present. Let me start by explaining what I'm thinking when I describe these three factors.
Budget: The guy who doesn't have money to spend for Legacy but wants to play will likely bring a Burn deck or Non-LED Dredge, in my opinion. Every time I look at the Community Board, someone who asks about the price of Legacy will generally have a response that includes these. It is my opinion that I am highly likely to get paired against these players in the earlier rounds, especially before R4 (I am not a cool kid, and therefore do not have 3 Byes to the GP).
Answer: Pulse of the Fields for Burn? Or perhaps something tacky like Sphere of Law? I will be running some form of GY hate already for Dredge.
Innovation: This is the guy who, especially in this case, thinks he can break Grim Monolith. Whether he can or not is irrelevant, but the decktype that it supports (even worse Stax shells or MUD) will be present more. I don't think Illusionary Mask will make that big of a showing, and even then, it's a poorer form of Show and Tell, and Dreadnoughts can be dealt with. Looking at the timeline, Reanimator in its current form pre-banning really took off about 3-4 weeks after the initial unbanning when the optimized decklist was agreed upon. So... such a list should be ready for the GP.
Answer: I'm really thinking about packing Null Rods, to be honest. I think this is the hoser card that people aren't really expecting that much (besides the conversation here). Another choice is possibly Aura of Silence, which I have always liked but do not know how effective it can be. I'm thinking about 1-2 MD Nevinyrral's Disk.
Opportunity: A lot of decks benefit from the banning of Mystical Tutor. The ones that I am thinking of are decks like Zoo, Enchantress, and Loam-based control. Zoo is included in the standard aggro hate package that is the MD + postboard 7 StP effects + 3 Negate for the burn they run, and I've honestly been to the point where I'm glad to see Zoo on the other side of the table. Against Loam based decks like Lands where they clearly gained strength after seeing one of their worst matchups fall, I'm more worried here. I'm running Planar Void as GY hate at the moment, and it has worked okay for me. I believe it's better than Relic / Crypt, as you aren't going all in or being baited on one activation, but rather you have a continuous effect that can be re-cast if bounced or destroyed and you draw another. (Leyline of the Void isn't really viable with 1 Swamp, 1 Underground Sea, and 1 Scrubland).
The last one I really wanted to talk about was Enchantress, I have a teammate that plays this well (to the point where I do not expect many pilots who sit across from me to perform that well), and with Sterling Grove, City of Solitude, and very strong win conditions, not to mention Replenish, this matchup is awful. LS has an inherently slow clock and isn't helped by the presence of cards like Moat, Oblivion Ring (for Elspeth/hate). Not sure if there can be a versatile hate card found for them. Destruction of their permanents is usually answered by a shrouded Karmic Justice. They have enough mana at times to hard-cast Emrakul, which was cute and will most likely spread to some of the other players of the archetype.
Answer: I'm drawing a blank. Besides Planar Void as possible GY hate, I really don't know. Aura of Silence?
So that's what has been running through my head. I hope I can get a little bit of help before this event, it seems pretty important :wink:
Oh, and my current SB, with plenty of flex, is:
1 Jace, TMS
2 Path to Exile
3 Negate
3 Preacher
The rest is what I'm looking to fill in.
I thought you said you weren't too worried about killing Jace with the rest of your deck. Why don't you just kill it normally, then play Jace afterword?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
@Morbid-
I wouldn't read too much into that. If Madrid is any reference I think most players will look at past bigger events and make their choice.
Since mystical is banned I would expect decks like Zoo being an even more interesting choice. So my guess would be:
Large portion zoo.
Equally large representations of the following:
Counter/top
Bant
New Horizons
Reanimator
ANT (or TES or similar)
Merfolk
At the top tables (after a few rounds):
- Zoo
- Bant
- New Horizons
- Lands (difficult to say because this is a very hard deck to assemble)
- ANT (I expect ANT and the like to be more resilient then reanimator)
Loam is still a big question mark, and remains to be seen but the meta seems right for it.
I would probably ignore Merfolk in the board to keep enough place for other SB strategies. I expect Zoo to gravely outnumber Merfolk in the first few rounds thus gravely thinning their numbers.
On a final note. Are you sure you will be taking Landstill to the GP without byes? I have seen for myself that in the last 2 rounds of the day your mental fitness is vastly more important then the match-up you are facing. I would certainly recommend to try and pick up any byes that can be played for in your area (if there are still any events left).
So recently I've been testing Konsultant's latest Landstill build and Wafo Tapo's build that he top8ed a 500 people event with. Coming from those 2 lists I've built a Landstill list that I feel is very strong in the current metagame.
4 Island
2 Plains
4Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishras Factory
2 Tropical Island
1 Glacial Fortress
The Wafo Tapo mana base is much more stable and nearly can't be screwed. I don't like Karakas, Tolaria West, Dust Bowl, Wasteland. They come in handy against opposing manlands but besides they dilute your mana base and destroy your deck's consistency.
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top (The deck has a relatively high land count and they help you to draw into your bombs and fix your mana.
4 Spell Snare (running less than 4 seems to be suboptimal as it hits nearly every important threat in the format)
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares (standard removal package, seems to be rock solid)
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor (I prefer him to Fact or Fiction as I don't see myself having to spend too many resources to keep him on the table. Actually he helps me doing so with his -1 ability, ups the blue count and I have to kill of creatures quickly anyway so he is an auto include.)
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant (best card in the deck I fear)
2 Decree of Justice (Geoff Smelski's build has shown me how strong this card is. I'd feel naked without it in any Landstill build)
SB:
3 Path to Exile (additional removal to shore up the aggro matchup)
2 Negate (Catch em all answer, good in matchups where one wants to board out most of the removal mainly, comes in with Meddling Mage often)
4 Meddling Mage (More things to bring in in matchups where the removal sucks, storm combo, Burn, Enchantress, Reanimator, control mirror..)
3 Krosan Grip (Counterbalance, Shackles, Enchantress stuff, best sideboard card)
3 Relic of Progenitus (GY hate of choice)
I think the deck has already got a good matchup against creature heavy decks and thus the sideboard is more geared towards beating matchups that tend to be bad because we run a shit ton of removal and that is useless there.
For those of you that plan on playing this at the Grand Prix I have the following question: Can you play fast enough to win matches with this deck?
I know that I can, I've been piloting the deck for long enough now that much of the game just runs on auto-pilot. I can scale my pace of play up or down keeping the clock in mind. But I imagine that like myself, many of you generate wins from concessions and at the Grand Prix or other large events I'm skeptical that as many people are going to be willing to concede a game that is clearly lost, but in a matter of time. Konsultant has proved that he can weave through 7+ rounds because he plays in New England where they get those kinds of numbers. So this question is directed to a lot of you who may not have played in many large scale tournaments.
Of course, the opponent being stubborn can also work to your advantage, but that is a different matter.
I'm casually writing a report from 2 weekly tournaments and 4 trials that I was in over the last two weeks. My finishing standing was something like 20-4-8 (all but two intentional draws.) During the course of this tournament I played Two matches that ran longer than two hours and beat a lot of unsavory match-ups. There were times where I misplayed because I wasn't actively taking the role of the control deck and it cost me every time - except the game where I opened up with 3 DoJ in my hand in the control mirror: I was the aggro deck that game.
Here's a UBG LS list winning a 64-ppl-event [...boasting 4 Jaces]:
ACME
I know I might sound like a broken record, but he's just THAT good!
As I emphasized before he obviously needs a shell with enough cheap removal to really function (the list above meets that criterion quite well), but if he does function (meaning sticking for 2 turns), it's usually GG and by "usually" I mean 90% of the time.
If Jace was in my deck I wouldn't have Fact or Fiction, and finding my answers to Jace gets a lot harder when I can't draw 5 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
What is the difference between casting Jace and removing their JaceQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
vs.
Casting FoF and getting a 1:4 split, where you have to take the 1 pile to answer their Jace?
....
If you answered "FoF is slower and gives them another turn to draw cards with Jace" you answered correctly.
So you got me thinking when you reffered to Jace as a win condition. It got me to think of him not as an accidental "oops I win" type of win condition but as a "hey i'm gonna fucking kill you with Jace" type of win condition. I have tested Jace extensively but until I read your remark the light never popped in my head to consider running Jace MD and still run FoF. Obviously space is at a premium especially at the 4 mana slots but I said fuck it let me try it out. So with no real testing I showed up at my local with this bastardized version of the UW list I had been running and Speedstill. On a sidenote I have followed Speedstill ever since you came up with the concept what must be a year or two ago now, I've always liked the deck alot but I don't know how well it would fair in the states. It seems in every event here you hit some Tribal Deck or Survival where your only hope to win is Wrath and a heavy removal package with strong Decrees as a finisher otherwise i'd probably try running it at an event. Anyways I threw some shit together and showed up at my local.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Round 1 vs Tes: win 2-0
Jace was irrelevant here outside of a higher Blue count but I'm not really looking to beat Tendrils with Plainswalkers anyway.
Round 2 vs Hypergenisis: win 2-0
I faced my teammate with a list I helped him assemble, since he was running Iona and Emerkul I admit it was nice having multiple Jace MD although he never actually resolved Hypergenisis because I drew very heavy countermagic hands plus multiple Factories to go aggro quickly both games. Once again not expecting to beat this deck with Plainswalkers but having them in the deck can be very useful situationally such as against either Iona or Emerkul.
Round 3 vs Merfolk: win 2-1
I have no idea what he is playing and I open a heavy counter magic hand, needless to say I get obliterated game 1. Game 2 I destroy his hand by forcing him to FOW 2x Preachers and break the game by resolving a FoF. Game 3 I finally get Jace online, now in my previous assessment of only comparing him to FoF I would argue that I would have won just as easily by resolving a FoF and I can pretty much say that with certainty. However when you have Jace and FoF together shit gets retarded. The importance is this, we don't win until we resolve card advantage, by treating Jace as a win con we able to increase the number of card advantage spells without decreasing the number of win conditions. I do like the base of the deck that I have been running amd will not definetly not be straying very far from the classical UW control list but I will be going back to the drawing board some as the only losses I have had in the last 2 events have been from either Iona or my opponents Jace. If I can fit them into the list without losing anything that I need for other match ups the end result could be a very strong list.
Round 4 vs Pyscotog? lose 0-2
Ok to be fair I worked a 11 hour day before starting this event and was now in hour 4 of playing Magic AND had only gotten not even 2 hours of sleep the night before, so I was definetly not on my A game against a good player running some home brew deck. From what I saw he was running UGB Tog, Goyf and Bob with FOW, Counterspell, Counter Top and Jace plus he was running Waste plus Loam with manlands. Game one he hits me with a couple wastes early and resolves a Jace through my double counter. He sticks it with nothing in hand. It takes everything I can to kill the damn thing with my Factories and the final turn I kill the thing he rips Intuition and gets 2x Cycle Lands plus Life From the Loam to go with the Wastes he already has in yard. He destroys my mana base and stops my threats with counter magic until he resolves another Jace and I pick up. This is where I made an aweful mistake and Side boarded terribly. Like I said I just kinda threw the list together and showed up with it, I didn't have all the sb cards I wanted with me so my SB was fairly hodgepodged and in a giant brain fart I misboarded. I underestimated his mana denial as I only saw Loam and Waste game 1, I walked my ass right into Stifle for the loss game 2. He did open a strong hand with Stifle and 2x Waste and he played it perfectly hitting every land I had execpt a Plains and Karakas and I ended the game with 7 blue cards in hand.
So this was only one small event plus the few hours of testing I got in since then but I have concluded this, First and foremost I will not be playing this deck without FoF pretty much ever. Secondly the "Jace Fan Club" exists for good reason, in the right circumstances he is 4 mana win the game, although I do say the same about FoF. I am going to continue tinkering with a way to keep both in the deck WITHOUT losing the Landstill inherint cards. If it came down to Decree or Jace I will side with Decree every time, right now I am taking a page from Klaus and running a faster removal package to pair with Jace to create an additional synergy within the deck ontop of the traditional Landstill synergy of the deck. If it wasn't for the popularity of Jace and the existence of things like Iona and Emerkul I would be sticking with my traditional build without doubt. Attempting this is based soley of meta gaming but as results keep racking up for Jace it is going to become increasingly important to be able to deal with him. I like what I have together now, perhaps even enough to run it at the last large event before the GP. If I get any substantial results from it I will post what I am working on.
I'm atm testing this list for a local tournament (besided prevision of 45+, i don't expect more than 25 players, sadly). Too bad i don't find room for humility/3rd wrath/3rd decree. Expecting merfolk, zoo, goblin, ugr faeries, some other landstill, New horizons, no relevant GY-based deck. I had some testing and the deck seems linear, but I'm not really satisfied with the numbers...
6 fetches
4 tundra
1 glacial fortress
2 volcanic
1 plateau
3 mishra
3 wasteland
2 plains
2 island (room for academy ruins?)
3 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fof (fof is such gamebreaking... though some times I feel I need some cheap manipulation in the form of top)
3 jace 2.0
2 elspeth
2 decree
2 wrath (should be 3/3... slots?)
4 stp
2 path
3 EE
4 fow
3 cs
3 snare
I think that's all...
SB:
3 kitchen finks
3 lightning bolt
3 meddling mage
3 negate
1 reb
1 crucible
1 fracturing gust (if there's an enchantress/monolith.deck)
Real problem is siding out! :)
Another option would be -3 wasteland +1 mishra +1 ruins +1 tropical, rearranging the sb (-bolt +reb + finks) and running MD firespout (-2 wrath -2 doj +3 FS +1 humility/path), though wastelands is pretty good vs faeries and merfolk to fight through their standstills... Need some help...
You have a ton of win conditions. I know Elspeth is good, but I don't think it is better than Jace and it doesn't have the synergy of Decree. I think cutting her for slots for another Wrath, Counterspell, Standstill, Jace, etc would be better.
this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Yeah, 4 weeks ago, I would never have even dared to ponder about cutting that sexy Errant - now I just dunnit.
With Combo.dec decreasing a fast clock (which she definitely provides) has become less relevant, and Jace is simply better at dominating control mirrors, while pitching to FOW (lolz). No, honestly I do enjoy the fact that you can actually go down to a single basic Plains without her, adding a basic mountain for reliable Firespouts feels good too.
For reference here's my current list:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
2 Condemn ------------------------ not completely settled (could be Firespout x3, -1 PtE. It's a meta choice, basically)
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
SB:
4 Rhox Warmonk
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
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I think people are forgetting just how strong Elspeth is against aggro decks...
If you cut elspeth then you lose a win condition, and even adding jace doesn't make up for it. The ablility to generate a blocker every turn is essential against decks like zoo and new horizons. Even with the amount of spot removal you run, I feel like you're going to have issues with aggro decks. I don't really like 4 JtMS in the deck, even if he his a bomb. I still like konsultant's build the most, it seems most stable to me and I think its going to be something like what I'll play at a GP if I get the rest of the cards together
She really is a fantastic Planeswalker and should be run in various LS shells. I apreciate the fact that she forces your opponent to overextend, basically giving WoG a power boost. In the list above, however, I don't pack any sweepers, which ultimately diminishes Elspeth's impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Cutting her also pretty much blanks opposing creature removal.
(As I said before, I came to view Mishra almost exclusively as a means to force your opponent to break Standstill.)
He's not saying you shouldn't run Jace, he's saying you shouldn't cut Elspeth.Quote:
She really is a fantastic Planeswalker and should be run in various LS shells.
Quote:
Cutting her also pretty much blanks opposing creature removal.
This is a non-issue, if they kill a 4/4 token, just make another Soldier next turn. You're up a card and still have an active Elspeth.
I wanted to think of a witty way to say "Firespout is almost never Wrath of God." But I decided to settle for this so that way no one would really be able to misinterpret what I'm saying.
I wish I got to play in the fantasy metagames that some of you play in where Goyfs never get larger than 2/3 and no one ever plays Knight of the Reliquary or Rhox War Monk. Or where Merfolk or Goblins never messes with your mana or has a Vial.
I suppose that if I did, I too would think that Firespout is just as good as Wrath of God.
Also, what's with Condemn? That's a page straight out of Pi4Meterftw's book. If you want something in that slot that is going to 1-1 Oblivion Ring isn't dead against non-creatures. I would also play Elspeth or Decree of Justice, but you clearly just want as much one-cost spot removal as possible. I disagree but must confess that you are allowed to build decks the way you like and it doesn't matter if I like it or not.
It is my understanding that you save your spot removal for stuff like Goyfs, KotR, RWM, and save the Firespouts for something else. Post-board, popping a Relic of Progenitus helps you keep the former two at bay. One of the reasons I quit playing the red splash because of RWM + CBTop, whereas with the black splash I could consistently find an answer, losing to a deck like NO-CBTop with the red splash was enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
I'm guessing Condemn is in there because there are already 8 StP effects in the deck.
I tried Condemn a while back, pre-Path to Exile. I didn't like it at all, it was pretty bad against black-based aggro as it won't hit a Dark Confidant if they have seen a copy already or if they discard it precombat. Also, not being able to cast it in response to things such as Counterbalance and not being able to remove blockers in the end game made it pretty bad. You don't need infinite spot removal, you just need enough to survive until your late game bombs take over.
I also don't like Relic to fight against things like Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary. It's not a permanent answer, and they can pumped back to reasonable size quickly. After board many decks also bring in Grips, which lessens it's impact unless you use it right away.
QFT. Actual removal is infinitely better.Quote:
I also don't like Relic to fight against things like Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary.
Elspeth is a 4 mana Maze of Ith against aggro.
I don't get the Vial part, but as for mana denial, FS trumps WoG by far, as you see, it costs one less, allowing you to cast it earlier (especially relevant against Zoo) and also making it easier to resolve facing Merfolk's Dazes and Wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
As a matter of fact, FS is easily the best anti tribal aggro spell out there.
In the face of 4 STPs and 4 Paths (plus 4 EEs) there should be very very few "BOBish" creatures that don't get handled right away. Condemn is an experimental addition, that takes care of the eventual stupid beater. with 8 STP effects the additional Firespouts traded 1-1 most of the time anyway, which is why I added Condemn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
O.Ring could be an alternative, but in a meta full of Pridemages, Grips and what not, I prefer permanent over temporary removal, while that playset of EE takes care of most non-creature permanents, barring planeswalkers.
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I wonder what makes you think, I didn't get that part ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
In many cases though, you do rely on tokens to protect Elspeth from being attacked and killed, that's when opposing spot removal becomes relevant (read: irrelevant if you don't play her).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Anyway, as I said before, I'm fine with Elspeth in many LS approaches, just not in mine.
Until you cast Wrath of God, and then make another 1/1 token. And then make everything indestructible. Now you have multiple indestructible 1/1 tokens to chump everything, and a 4/4 flyer thats ending the game. I don't think Maze of Ith can do that.Quote:
Elspeth is a 4 mana Maze of Ith against aggro.
The power of Elspeth against aggro was something I thought was established and accepted, I'm not sure why the sudden change.