All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I had an experience against a Miracles player a few years back that opened my eyes to calling a Judge.

It was game 3 and so there wasn't much time left anyway, and the guy was playing okay to kinda slow anyways, doing 5-6 shuffles of their deck after every fetch instead of my 3-4, shuffling my deck as well after every fetch instead of cutting. But nothing clear cut egregious enough to snap call a judge. Enough to annoy for sure though. But he's playing to win, took a while to kill me game 1, I turn it around quickly game 2 and so here we are with the 10 minutes left.

After the initial volleys he's on the back foot and I only need a few good draw steps to put him in the downward spiral. Then it begins. An excruciating line of play that involves him looking at the clock, resolving a Ponder, thinking, looking at the clock, thinking, shuffling for Ponder, drawing, thinking, looking at the clock, playing a fetch land, cracking the fetch land, shuffling, looking at the clock, playing another Ponder; on and on it went.

There was no one thing that he did that could be called out in my mind. I suspected he was playing to draw but he did have a few outs that could have turned the game around. But every Ponder was thinking time followed by a shuffle, then somehow another shuffle effect, then SCM into Ponder again. Every shuffle effect was like 40 seconds, but they were long the whole match, so it wasn't anything special now. And I didn't want to be the asshole to tell him to speed up only now that it would mean he'd lose faster. Or blindside him with a Judge call for something he's not doing.

But yeah in hindsight none of that matters. We drew and I was salty the whole day. Maybe still even now. But that's something I'll never let happen again. If I think you're playing the clock, I'll invite some Judges to stand around and watch us.

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I really appreciate this, it clarifies things a little for me. I still know that what I did was wrong, no doubt, but now I can take this advice and move on.

The big difference is I only had 5 minutes left and it was only game 2.

Will there be a B/R announcement on 12/7 when Ultimate Masters is released?

no

I mean at this point do we really expect anything to happen? Nothing besides the obvious worth banning, but it won't ever happen and WOTC thinks infinite squirrels is too good for legacy so we're just kind of stuck beingbeing a dead format. I hear duals prices are coming down though which is nice, but I think the format is too far gone at this point

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I mean at this point do we really expect anything to happen? Nothing besides the obvious worth banning, but it won't ever happen and WOTC thinks infinite squirrels is too good for legacy so we're just kind of stuck beingbeing a dead format. I hear duals prices are coming down though which is nice, but I think the format is too far gone at this point

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Shaman and Probe ban has made me more optimistic in that regard inasmuch as it indicates that they still care about the format and haven't completely left it to itself yet. Going as far as banning Probe (which is highly justified but far from obvious) makes it very possible that change can occur from bans in the future again.

Another factor to consider is power creep. They have printed ridiculous cards in the last few years which unfortunately were mostly blue (Snap, Delver, TNN, Strix, Leo) but once the other colors catch up in terms of powerlevel we might see change coming from that factor too.

The issue with the current format is that the things that I feel should go are either untouchable because it's a pillar or untouchable because they are just not that strong.

In my view the format would be better off without TNN, but if you asked me point blank if the card is actually at a banable level I would say no. It's not. Even if it's horrid for the game. Because that's the format, a mix of fuck ups and mistakes that are left to fester until someone makes something sweet out of them.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I mean at this point do we really expect anything to happen? Nothing besides the obvious worth banning, but it won't ever happen and WOTC thinks infinite squirrels is too good for legacy so we're just kind of stuck beingbeing a dead format. I hear duals prices are coming down though which is nice, but I think the format is too far gone at this point

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Legacy isn't dying it is just changing to become more of a spike format than a johnny format, mostly through power creep that has made it difficult for such strategies to flourish.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

Going as far as banning Probe (which is highly justified but far from obvious)

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Just here to say again that I think Probe is completely fine, still don't get all the hate.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

Just here to say again that I think Probe is completely fine, still don't get all the hate.

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I don't think many argued that Gitaxian Probe was broken or too good, though certainly very good, but many thought it was poorly designed and that it took away key elements from the game making it less interesting and fun. I expect WotC made a similar assessment - a quick look reveals them saying that it was a main component of two of the most powerful decks and also poorly designed (low cost) and taking away fun/interesting aspects of games.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ate-2018-07-02

Perhaps TNN could be banned with a similar motivation, though it's less of an offender than Probe was since it's not as important in top decks (as of now) and not undercosted.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

Just here to say again that I think Probe is completely fine, still don't get all the hate.

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Spell with text that says "I just thinned my deck by 4 cards/I see what you play before I even lay down a land/I like to play Combo and now I know I can go for it" seems obnoxious enough to me, and that's before it upped the storm count by one for free. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

Shaman and Probe ban has made me more optimistic in that regard inasmuch as it indicates that they still care about the format and haven't completely left it to itself yet.

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A less optimistic way to look at it would be, that the bannings of TC, DTT, SotF, SDT, DRS and GP pretty much defined the absolute ceiling of what WotC allows for the format. Every time a new card/deck is reshaping the format, WotC just hits the reset button to Ponder+Brainstorm+Fetches+FoW.

I guess people are just too bored, too old and the prices too high in general for new players to pick up the cards. Legacy has gone full Vintage at this point imo.

I think the most poor designed card is still Baleful Strix. The card is way beyond Gitaxian Probes power in its representative archetype. We are talking about a blue Doom Blade against any color which works as a cantrip and can also attack and is Force of Will pitchable. It is way to OP in any Ubx control deck and is extremely oppressing on the board because you need to spend removal (resources) on it while it allready replace itself and can trade against anything. In this content Strix is a much more powerful card than Gitaxian Probe was and I think it should be absolutely banned. I could also argue that Terminus is oppressing in that sense but Terminus was allready nerfed since SDT banning so I am more fine with Terminus tbh than Strix.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I think the most poor designed card is still Baleful Strix. The card is way beyond Gitaxian Probes power in its representative archetype. We are talking about a blue Doom Blade against any color which works as a cantrip and can also attack and is Force of Will pitchable. It is way to OP in any Ubx control deck and is extremely oppressing on the board because you need to spend removal (resources) on it while it allready replace itself and can trade against anything. In this content Strix is a much more powerful card than Gitaxian Probe was and I think it should be absolutely banned. I could also argue that Terminus is oppressing in that sense but Terminus was allready nerfed since SDT banning so I am more fine with Terminus tbh than Strix.

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I think you’re jumping the gap between “good card” to “overpowered card” here.

First, Probe’s problem wasn’t just how it enabled any one archetype, even if it did push one or two. The main issue was how prevalent the card had become, and how much it distorted the risk-taking aspect of the game. By definition, Strix cannot be prevalent outside of UBx, but even in these colors, it is not.

Secondly, Strix is not a Doomblade, it’s just an efficient blocker. It might be hell to deal with for certain archetypes, it’s also a bit of joke for others. From first strikers to pingers to anything with protection from black or blue, mainboard and sideboard options aren’t exactly lacking.

A card that can be answered by Tim can’t possibly be ban-worthy.

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Originally Posted by Alfy

A card that can be answered by Tim can’t possibly be ban-worthy.

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Damn Hermit Druid

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Originally Posted by Alfy

A card that can be answered by Tim can’t possibly be ban-worthy.

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Deathrite Shaman approves this message.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Damn Hermit Druid

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Should have known trying to be overly flippant would cost me. Hermit Druid needs a answer right away, Strix can be Tim-ed in the next 15 turns.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Deathrite Shaman approves this message.

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Shaman is most definitely not Tim-able, but before we’d even look at that, we should go back to “format warping” and general prevalence. There’s an order to these things.

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Originally Posted by Alfy

Should have known trying to be overly flippant would cost me. Hermit Druid needs a answer right away,

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Hermit druid would be completely fine to unban.

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Originally Posted by Alfy

First, Probe’s problem wasn’t just how it enabled any one archetype, even if it did push one or two. The main issue was how prevalent the card had become, and how much it distorted the risk-taking aspect of the game. By definition, Strix cannot be prevalent outside of UBx, but even in these colors, it is not.

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This is also just not true. There were two archetypes that played probe, and yes, Grixis was very strong, but it's still very strong after the probe banning. Probe detractors always discuss it as though it were literally free, and that any and every deck played it, but that's just not what actually happened in real life.

As for the "risk-taking aspect," I assume you mean the peek that comes with Probe? Again, Thoughtseize is still legal. Thoughtseize gives you exactly as much information as Probe does, and yet no one is yelling about discard taking away some sacrosanct "hidden information" game. People have draw steps, people have Brainstorm; a one-turn snapshot of someone's hand was completely fine.

Thoughtseize costs mana and is tempo negative, probe is free and replaces itself.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

Thoughtseize costs mana and is tempo negative, probe is free and replaces itself.

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Let's be honest: the "problem" with Probe was that it worked with Cabal Therapy to make opposing hands do nothing at the net cost of one card, one black mana, and two life.

Thoughtseize does the same thing.

#probedidnothingwrong